Curryman
Well-known member
European Commission draft mandate 'unacceptable', says UK and Gibraltar
Gibraltar News, GBC News, Latest Gibraltar News
www.gbc.gi
The surprise for me is that Dominic Raab knows there's a border between Spain and Gibraltar, given his previous geographical ignorance.European Commission draft mandate 'unacceptable', says UK and Gibraltar
Gibraltar News, GBC News, Latest Gibraltar Newswww.gbc.gi
We opted out of the data sharing with Europol when we left the EU. The EU is abiding by our request.'They are now insisting that Spanish border guards should be stationed at Gibraltar’s port, airport and waters to enforce the bloc’s rules and that they should have the right to enter the territory to apprehend people and do other enforcement work and carry out surveillance there under EU rules.'
This, at the same time as the EU, is now refusing to co-operate on crimes committed by their own population or sharing any information about criminality or terror threats with the UK.
You couldn't make it up.
Ssssshhh don't let the truth get in the way of fantasy.We opted out of the data sharing with Europol when we left the EU. The EU is abiding by our request.
The EU is a rules based organisation. The UK wanted to leave but think that the EU will waiver rules by acting in a derogatory and insulting manner *see Ireland....
The brexit ultras will never be happy. Nothing is ever enough, whether it be keeping the £ or trying to renage on the deal THEY signed, political cakeism is for idiots, incapable of distinguishing fantasy from realty. Bunch of cranks should be driven out, not running the show. They are always the victim....
Really, crikey you lot are proper shape shifters aren't you. Wow this govt arw so honest and up front, they're british upper class with stiff upper lips. Anyway it taken this article below which is interesting:The EU certainly is a Rules based organisation. It agreed rules with the UK on how Gibraltar should be dealt with. Now it wants to apply its own rules. It seems to be you who is struggling to distinguish fantasy from realty.
We opted out of the data sharing with Europol when we left the EU. The EU is abiding by our request.
As Wiz wrote, Bojo and Co decided that they didn’t want to be a part of any EU Agency after Brexit and opted out of Europol. They only joined it at the end of 2014, five years after it had restarted. Tangnot’s fine imitation of Trumpspeak is alarming to say the least. Does he really believe what he’s written. Hopefully the U.K. govt will go grovelling back to the eu, probably when they think no-one is looking and beg to be allowed to rejoin, hopefully at some exorbitant cost to ourselves.
Spot on. That’s why I thought it was lunacy that we insisted on withdrawing.What does it matter having criminals moving to and from the UK with impunity? Better to promote murder and rape rather than avoid it by sharing intelligence. After all, what do a few killings, drug deals and frauds matter if they allow the UK to be punished for leaving the EU
I know it sounds bonkers but that’s actually what happened. Raab insisted our security would improve if we weren’t part of the intelligence sharing. I didn’t understand his argument then and I don’t understand it now.Do you really believe we wanted to be excluded from information about dangerous criminals entering this country?
True. But I think we knew all along they’d never accept responsibility for any problems. It’d always be someone else’s fault. And then they get cross when that’s pointed out.The 720° twists of logic by the Brexit camp on issues where they were foaming at the mouth to get brexit done at any cost, yet sit here today denying there was a cost could make anyone dizzy.
Now each time the arrangements are clearly to the UKs detriment, all we hear is the foreigners are cheating. When the truth is this is what the deal was all along. It's almost as if they don't want to take responsibility.
Tell our Government. It was they who left the agreement to share data, not the other way round.What does it matter having criminals moving to and from the UK with impunity? Better to promote murder and rape rather than avoid it by sharing intelligence. After all, what do a few killings, drug deals and frauds matter if they allow the UK to be punished for leaving the EU
So you want everything for free, who pays for the systems? It's like the politics of school children.As has been said above, the UK was prevented from receiving intelligence upon leaving the EU because VDL and Macron decided that would be a price to be paid for deserting the European Project. Do you really believe we wanted to be excluded from information about dangerous criminals entering this country?
Tell our Government. It was they who left the agreement to share data, not the other way round.
There is no legal basis for sharing it.Absolutely nothing to stop the EU sharing criminal intelligence, except for the fact that it chooses not to. I mean it's not like the UK is going to refuse it.
There is no legal basis for sharing it.
It really isn't. There are protocols and legal frameworks for all data sharing.You don't need a legal basis to tell the authorities a consignment of drugs from France is landing at Dover tomorrow night or the Rumanian guy living at 27 High Street, Camden is a paedophile. It's how neighbouring countries all over the world operate.
Recognised the folly of your point or not?It really isn't. There are protocols and legal frameworks for all data sharing.
So you're against arresting criminals then? As the Gibraltarian PM says, they're now more linked to the EU than they were before Brexit as part of the single market. That includes open borders. He doesn't have an issue with it and he lives there.The point of this thread is that the EU plans to back Spain's plan to control Gibraltar's border and enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals, an action which would be illegal in any country. Not only is there no legal framework allowing such action, but it was specifically prevented in the brexit agreement. I don't see you supporting upholding these protocols and legal frameworks.
perhaps you should read the o/p articleThe point of this thread is that the EU plans to back Spain's plan to control Gibraltar's border and enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals, an action which would be illegal in any country.
So you're against arresting criminals then? As the Gibraltarian PM says, they're now more linked to the EU than they were before Brexit as part of the single market. That includes open borders. He doesn't have an issue with it and he lives there. As you well know, we're all too ready to ignore things in the Brexit agreement, so don't raise that as if it's sacrosanct.
As far as I can see the proposal is that Spanish officials are in situ at border posts, ports and airports in Gib. A bit like the French do at St Pancras for Eurostar.The point of this thread is that the EU plans to back Spain's plan to control Gibraltar's border and enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals, an action which would be illegal in any country. Not only is there no legal framework allowing such action, but it was specifically prevented in the brexit framework agreement. I don't see you supporting upholding these protocols and legal frameworks.
As far as I can see the proposal is that Spanish officials are in situ at border posts, ports and airports in Gib. A bit like the French do at St Pancras for Eurostar.
I haven’t seen anything about a right “to enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals”. Where have you got that from? Post a link please.
Yes the first part about being stationed at ports/airports etc (as the French always have been at St Pancras) but I can’t see anything about Spanish police being able to enter the island proper. All the media that I’ve seen talk about the first but not the second.Wasn't that part of the EU's draft document demanding Spanish border guards to be posted at Gibraltar’s port and airport and Spanish police to enter unchallenged if in pursuit of a criminal?
Childish.What does it matter having criminals moving to and from the UK with impunity? Better to promote murder and rape rather than avoid it by sharing intelligence. After all, what do a few killings, drug deals and frauds matter if they allow the UK to be punished for leaving the EU
I have previously asked you to post a link proving your claim that the EU wants the Spanish police to have the right to “enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals”. I asked you to do that because everything I’ve read in the media just talks about Spanish police being present at border crossings, ports and airports but nothing at all about a unilateral right to enter the territory as they choose as implied by you and Tangojoe. You haven’t posted any link but I think I’ve got to the bottom of where your claim has come from. Not surprisingly it’s not quite how you’ve represented it. First though a few facts to correct the misrepresentations that have been posted on this thread.The point of this thread is that the EU plans to back Spain's plan to control Gibraltar's border and enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals, an action which would be illegal in any country.
We can agree there was a framework agreement although that was actually between the U.K., Gib and Spain; not the EU. Small point I suppose.The UK had a provisional framework agreement in place with the EU under which the latter would assign agents from its border agency to control the Gibraltar border. The EU has ignored that and is now proposing that Spain assumes total control of all border responsibilities, including checks on people and goods at the land border as well as asylum applications, visa applications, residence permits and police cooperation. And yes, this includes the right for Spanish police to enter the territory in pursuit of suspects.
We can agree there was a framework agreement although that was actually between the U.K., Gib and Spain; not the EU. Small point I suppose.
In that agreement the U.K. and Gib agreed that foreign law enforcement would have a role to play on the border and in ports and airports. So if any sovereignty has been lost then it was voluntarily surrendered by the U.K.
As I said in my post the understanding was that the Foreign police would be Frontex and as I’ve said the reference in the EU mandate is to the Spanish police, so to that extent the mandate is not in line with the framework agreement and I can under why Gib would be nervous about the Spanish given the history. So we agree on that as well even if you are being slightly hysterical about it.
Where you become even more hysterical is with your innuendo that the EU have asked for the right for the Spanish to send in Jack booted stormtroopers whenever they want. That was nonsense and you’ve been unable to post a link to anything which supports your crazy theory.
As the Times reported the framework agreement signed by U.K. and Gib was to allow Gib to join the Schengen area. Every member of that area is subject to the hot pursuit rule so it isn’t something unique to Gib and hasn’t been created just to steal the UK’s sovereignty. Unless it was excluded in the framework agreement it’s a principle the U.K. and Gib accepted when they signed the agreement.
So really once again when it comes to the EU you’ve exaggerated and distorted. Which is a shame really as it’s impossible to have a proper debate when someone posts nonsense.
I haven’t said I think it’s acceptable for the U.K. and Gib “to allow Spain to control Gib”. You just made that up.What a shame you had to spoil a reasonable post with your final sentence. There is no nonsense. Well apart from you thinking it's acceptable for the UK and Gibraltar to allow Spain to control Gibraltar.
I'm not sure what hysteria or innuendo you think I dreamed up. The EU proposals permit Spanish police to enter Gibraltar to pursue suspected criminals. That's not hysteria. It's fact. That is police, not jack booted stormtroopers. That's your wild imagination. What's more, were Spain to be granted control of entry and exit, visas, asylum, movement of goods, who would control the entry of Spanish police?
I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make. The EU has made a stupid proposal that is unacceptable to the UK, unacceptable to Gibraltar, threatens UK sovereignty and breaches the 2020 provisional framework agreement. Do you support the EU or the UK? Make your mind up.
And on that basis, you can be called out for a misrepresentation of the facts. Some would say a lie, designed to cause division. For what it's worth, the EU includes Spain, so having their men on the border meets the terms anyway. It's a bit unnecessary to have people travel from Denmark to man a border in Southern Spain."I have previously asked you to post a link proving your claim that the EU wants the Spanish police to have the right to “enter the territory to arrest suspected criminals”.
HaHa!! Good Perry Mason impersonation. This is a football forum for expressing opinions mate. Nobody has to prove things.
I'm not sure what part of breach of sovereign rights you're pretending not to understand. The UK had a provisional framework agreement in place with the EU under which the latter would assign agents from its border agency to control the Gibraltar border. The EU has ignored that and is now proposing that Spain assumes total control of all border responsibilities, including checks on people and goods at the land border as well as asylum applications, visa applications, residence permits and police cooperation. And yes, this includes the right for Spanish police to enter the territory in pursuit of suspects.
Anyone who can't grasp the stupidity of granting a predator like Spain complete control of almost every aspect of Gib's access and egress and the effective control of every movement of goods into the territory really doesn't understand the sensitive political situation between the UK and Spain. It's equivalent to giving Argentina control of access to the Falklands.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what you or I think. The fact is that the EU's proposals were never on the table and never part of the 2020 framework agreement and both the UK and Gibraltar are not having it. So Mrs VDL can go back to her European Politics For Dummies book to find some other way of undermining the UK.
The gift that keeps on givingIt’s great this Brexit thingy isn’t it
Surely the U.K., which claims to be a rules based country but which nevertheless is trying to overturn the NI Protocol, is not planning to get in a huff over the EU doing the same over Gibraltar? Unbelievable Geoff.Surely the same European Commission that claims to be a a rules-based organisation and insists that the Brexit agreements aren’t up for revisiting is not planning to overturn its own agreement with the UK over Gibraltar. Unbelievable Geoff.