EU Army

T

Tangojoe

Well-known member
It seems strange that Manny Macron wants the UK to join his little army project whilst going out of his way to bar us from everything else the bloc is involved in. It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that our armed forces are among the best in the world and the rest of Europe doesn’t do fighting would it?

Now it seems that Ursula VDL and the new German Chancellor Armin Laschet have also backed the creation of an EU army and claimed the UK should be included. The EU will present a draft proposal of a potential first entry force in November and wants to seal the deal when France takes over the six-month EU Council presidency from January next year.

The UK currently spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined and considerably more than the biggest EU spenders France, Germany and Italy. Surely the prospect of our heroes being commanded by the donkeys of Brussels is not something this country should ever contemplate.
 
Tangojoe said:
The UK currently spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined and considerably more than the biggest EU spenders France, Germany and Italy.
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www.statista.com

Largest military spenders worldwide 2022 | Statista

The United States led the ranking of countries with highest military spending in 2022, with 877 billion U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

This statement is blatantly untrue. See the attached.

In 2020 the U.K. spent 59.2 bn USD. Germany spent 52.8 and France 52.7. So German and French spend alone (leaving out the rest of the EU) is almost double the U.K. spend. It’s therefore ridiculous to claim as the op did that “The U.K. spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined”.
 
Tangojoe said:
It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that our armed forces are among the best in the world and the rest of Europe doesn’t do fighting would it?
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Yes, weird that isn't it. You'd have thought that some parts of Europe might have seen some military conflict since 1945 but no, not a jot. That must be it then - Europe doesn't do fighting.
The more I read this Board the more educated I become.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
www.statista.com

Largest military spenders worldwide 2022 | Statista

The United States led the ranking of countries with highest military spending in 2022, with 877 billion U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

This statement is blatantly untrue. See the attached.

In 2020 the U.K. spent 59.2 bn USD. Germany spent 52.8 and France 52.7. So German and French spend alone (leaving out the rest of the EU) is almost double the U.K. spend. It’s therefore ridiculous to claim as the op did that “The U.K. spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined”.
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I imagine he meant the 24 smallest spending states not the 3 largest spending ones. I've no idea if it's true but there's nothing in the link I can see that disproves his statement.
 
Kip said:
I imagine he meant the 24 smallest spending states not the 3 largest spending ones. I've no idea if it's true but there's nothing in the link I can see that disproves his
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So you agree then that the combined spend of the EU member states on defence far outstrips the U.K. spend?

It’s just that, from reading the op, its possible to get a very different impression. I’m sure of course that wasn’t the intention.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
www.statista.com

Largest military spenders worldwide 2022 | Statista

The United States led the ranking of countries with highest military spending in 2022, with 877 billion U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

This statement is blatantly untrue. See the attached.

In 2020 the U.K. spent 59.2 bn USD. Germany spent 52.8 and France 52.7. So German and French spend alone (leaving out the rest of the EU) is almost double the U.K. spend. It’s therefore ridiculous to claim as the op did that “The U.K. spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined”.
Click to expand...
As it was when the claim was more immigrants than the rest of the EU combined. Its the old Goebbels maxim of the bigger the lie, the more its believed in action.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So you agree then that the combined spend of the EU member states on defence far outstrips the U.K. spend?

It’s just that, from reading the op, its possible to get a very different impression. I’m sure of course that wasn’t the intention.
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Of course. No one has ever suggested we spend more then Germany, France & Italy combined - that would be crazy.

I think the fact he mentioned '24' was the give-away, but whatever.
 
Kip said:
I imagine he meant the 24 smallest spending states not the 3 largest spending ones. I've no idea if it's true but there's nothing in the link I can see that disproves his statement.
Click to expand...
*sigh*

UK military expenditure in 2020 (according to Statistica) was US$ 59.2 bn. The total expenditure of the 24 smallest military budgets in the EU in 2020 amounted to US$ 84.2 bn.

The 5 largest military spending states in Europe in 2020 were:

US$ bn
United Kingdom 59.2
Germany 52.8
France 52.7
Italy 28.9
Spain 17.1

The number of separate military conflicts (ie. not those identified individually within separately identifiable wars) in Europe since the end of WW2, amounts to approximately 70. It would be worthwhile, not only in terms of a Russian or a Middle Eastern threat, if Europe could work together in terms of foreign policy, military budget co-ordination and strategically, in order to reduce and combat such threats as they arise.
 
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Trammo said:
So the French and Italians expect our brave servicemen to learn to march backwards? No way Jose !🇬🇧
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The soldiers of the EU army would all soon have sunburnt armpits - from raising their arms in surrender!
The UK should decide our own destiny when it comes to going to conflict/war and not jump to the EU tune. NOt a drop of British soldiers blood should be spilt for them.
 
Recidivist3 said:
Don’t tell me that TangoJoebbels is coming out with shit again
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Mexboroseasider said:
www.statista.com

Largest military spenders worldwide 2022 | Statista

The United States led the ranking of countries with highest military spending in 2022, with 877 billion U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

This statement is blatantly untrue. See the attached.
Click to expand...

Afraid not black power. The stats are correct. Your sneery friend is talking himself into a hole as usual. Maybe he doesn't understand the statement
"The UK currently spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined and considerably more than the biggest EU spenders France, Germany and Italy."
 
Tangojoe said:
Afraid not black power. The stats are correct. Your sneery friend is talking himself into a hole as usual. Maybe he doesn't understand the statement
"The UK currently spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined and considerably more than the biggest EU spenders France, Germany and Italy."
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I refer the hard of thinking to my reply at #14 on the thread.
 
Of course it would be ridiculous for the UK to be talked into joining what will inevitably be a shambles of an EU army. We already know it couldn't run the proverbial brewery piss-up. The EU's current defence budget is minimal and 80% of it is paid by non-EU allies. The EU has no defence to speak of and relies on NATO for pretty much everything concerning the safety and security of its 450 million inhabitants. According to Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Sec General, and confirmed by the EU’s statistics agency Eurostat, published on 27 August 2021, the average defence spend amongst EU27 countries is only 1.2% of GDP and, as the OP says, for 24 of its members that amounts to peanuts.
 
Like it or not, Britain's future is inexorably linked with Europe. It has been ever since Julius Caesar dipped a toe on a home counties beach and it will continue to do so. A military or terrorist threat to Europe is a threat to Britain. It will only take a seriously isolationist America - or one that turns it's attention completely to the threats from the east - for Europe to be vulnerable. If that happens we will need to come together in a grown up manner.
 
Brett scores for fun said:
The soldiers of the EU army would all soon have sunburnt armpits - from raising their arms in surrender!
The UK should decide our own destiny when it comes to going to conflict/war and not jump to the EU tune. NOt a drop of British soldiers blood should be spilt for them.
Click to expand...

At the moment our destiny when it comes to conflict/war is “What is the US doing?”. Which we seemingly have very little influence over, when we want something and the Americans tell us to fuck off it’s the end of the matter.

With the US increasingly becoming less invested in Europe and more focussed on domestic issues and Asia, it’s time European countries started to build their own foreign policy that isn’t wholly dependent on US muscle, because European and US aims aren’t always the same.

Europe has been safely under the umbrella of US protection since the end of WW2, and that will not last forever, at some point Europe will have to look out for itself, or it might as well be a client state of the US.

The European army is the first step in that direction, whether or not the UK should join should rest on two questions 1) Does the EU foreign policy better align with UK foreign policy? 2) Are we going to be more influential and successful in forming the EU's foreign policy vs the US?

I’d wager on the second question the answer is probably yes, on the first I have no clue.

There’s little the UK can feasibly do solely on its own, so we’ll be working with partners in one way or another. It all comes down to which partners are easier to work with and if our aims align.
 
tommytwojags said:
Of course it would be ridiculous for the UK to be talked into joining what will inevitably be a shambles of an EU army. We already know it couldn't run the proverbial brewery piss-up. The EU's current defence budget is minimal and 80% of it is paid by non-EU allies. The EU has no defence to speak of and relies on NATO for pretty much everything concerning the safety and security of its 450 million inhabitants. According to Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Sec General, and confirmed by the EU’s statistics agency Eurostat, published on 27 August 2021, the average defence spend amongst EU27 countries is only 1.2% of GDP and, as the OP says, for 24 of its members that amounts to peanuts.
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Of course, the main reason for the formation of the EU was to prevent future wars between the members. On that basis, it's been a huge success.
 
Positioning themselves with a big army so China, Russia and the US will think differently about Europe. Wrong.
 
Is that the same France who now want our soldiers who continued to sell arms to Argentina during the Falklands war? 🤔

Sorry Mr Macron but go get stuffed allies my arse. 🖕
 
Despite the fact the EU seems to spend 4 times as much on its military than the UK we have Tommy two jags saying the EU has no defence to speak of.
Despite the fact the French are the most successful military nation on Earth we have numerous people furthering George Bush's surrender monkey myth.
Let's also remind ourselves that the American propaganda machine invented the surrender monkey myth because the French refused to invade Iraq with them. While we British turned ourselves into America's poodle. Seems to me the French were displaying a lot more balls by telling the yanks to fůck off.
 
I’m not interested in who spends what, to be asked to join an eye army is laughable, after all we’re a little country according to some in Europe and isn’t there something called NATO?
 
Tangojoe said:
Afraid not black power. The stats are correct. Your sneery friend is talking himself into a hole as usual. Maybe he doesn't understand the statement
"The UK currently spends more on defence than 24 EU member states combined and considerably more than the biggest EU spenders France, Germany and Italy."
Click to expand...
You'd think some people would learn to be very specific when they post on here, if anything is the slightest bit ambiguous it will be seized upon to contradict the poster and start the name-calling.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Is that the same France who now want our soldiers who continued to sell arms to Argentina during the Falklands war? 🤔

Sorry Mr Macron but go get stuffed allies my arse. 🖕
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Papers released from the National Archive in 2014 show that British arms sales to Argentina's junta, notorious for its abuses of human rights, jumped after Margaret Thatcher came to power. Arms sales rose from £4.9m in 1978 to £62.6m in 1979; £46.7m in 1980 and £12.5m in 1981. Margaret Thatcher's government oversaw the delivery of two Lynx helicopters in 1979 and a Type-42 destroyer in 1980, contracts that had been agreed by the previous Labour government. Both the helicopters and the destroyer were used in the invasion of the Falklands. The Thatcher government also sold 22 Sea Dart surface-to-air missiles, radar spares, war support equipment for radar, laser rangefinder equipment, and mountings to attach heavy weapons to armoured personnel carriers.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Papers released from the National Archive in 2014 show that British arms sales to Argentina's junta, notorious for its abuses of human rights, jumped after Margaret Thatcher came to power. Arms sales rose from £4.9m in 1978 to £62.6m in 1979; £46.7m in 1980 and £12.5m in 1981. Margaret Thatcher's government oversaw the delivery of two Lynx helicopters in 1979 and a Type-42 destroyer in 1980, contracts that had been agreed by the previous Labour government. Both the helicopters and the destroyer were used in the invasion of the Falklands. The Thatcher government also sold 22 Sea Dart surface-to-air missiles, radar spares, war support equipment for radar, laser rangefinder equipment, and mountings to attach heavy weapons to armoured personnel carriers.
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I’am talking during the Falklands war not before it.
I’am sure if we digged deep enough we probably sold some military hardware the the Germans pre 1939.
 
EagleDay said:
You'd think some people would learn to be very specific when they post on here, if anything is the slightest bit ambiguous it will be seized upon to contradict the poster and start the name-calling.
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Mine at #14 is absolutely not ambiguous but taken from published figures.
 
Matesrates said:
I’m not interested in who spends what, to be asked to join an eye army is laughable, after all we’re a little country according to some in Europe and isn’t there something called NATO?
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NATO is a vexed point. It still has a role, obviously, but if America moves it's long term attention, Europe (inc. us) needs a strong structure in place.
 
21 EU member states are also members of NATO, presumably the six who are not NATO members and remain neutral would not participate in the new club either, after all NATO members if attacked have the others coming to their aid, so why another army, is it because of America being in NATO?
 
1966_and_all_that said:
My point stands. France was not alone in arming the Junta.
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And I say again France was in the process of shipping more Exocet missiles to Argentina during the conflict until pressure from the UN/EU stopped it.

During my time at BAES we sold Hawks to Indonesia we didn’t know at the time they would be used to crush a rebellion on Eastern Timor you simply cannot account for the future but what France tried to do was completely out of order.

As I said previously allies my arse never trust the French.
 
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Brett scores for fun said:
The soldiers of the EU army would all soon have sunburnt armpits - from raising their arms in surrender!
The UK should decide our own destiny when it comes to going to conflict/war and not jump to the EU tune. NOt a drop of British soldiers blood should be spilt for them.
Click to expand...
It should only be spilt in the pursuit of the long term aims of major multi nationals and corporate America.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
And I say again France was in the process of shipping more Exocet missiles to Argentina during the conflict until pressure from the UN/EU stopped it.

During my time at BAES we sold Hawks to Indonesia we didn’t know at the time they would be used to crush a rebellion on Eastern Timor but what France tried to do was completely out of order.

As I said previously allies my arse never trust the French.
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Take away your last, silly, sentence and I agree, you have a valid point
 
Matesrates said:
I’m not interested in who spends what, to be asked to join an eye army is laughable, after all we’re a little country according to some in Europe and isn’t there something called NATO?
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Maybe this idea is pre-empting the USA becoming more isolationist and leaving NATO.
If that were to happen we would probably ask if we could tag along with them, making us almost irrelevant. When it would be preferable to be big enough and strong enough to play a major role with our European neighbours.
Unfortunately it appears that a lot of people in this country have a weird view of Europe where they see themselves as superior and inferior at the same time!
A lot of people here also think that the Americans think more highly of us than other nations, its not true.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Well at least we agree on something then.

My old Grandad used to say he’d sooner trust a Kraut than a Frog.
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Look Jaffa, the world of international arms sales is one in which national defence doesn't seem to get a look-in. It's tawdry. My point was that Argentina used armaments supplied by us to a regime that we knew was dangerous and anti-civil rights. Your point about France is equally valid and, yes, they do occasionally come across as duplicitous on the World stage. But...if the balloon were ever to go up again, they would be with us. As per this thread, we need to be onside with the French and (though they cringe from saying it), they need to be onside with us.
Hate thy neighbour but always side with them.
 
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