Football Regulator

basilrobbie3 said:

Why stop there? I mean, who honestly wants to watch Blackpool v Wycombe in front of 10,000 fans on Easter Monday? What business have clubs like that wanting to progress?

For a bloke who wants his club to "show ambition" and "be the best that it can", your thinking isn't half muddled.

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Wow i mean its not like you to completely miss the point is it, you were proven utterly wrong on your defense of all things Oystons and i've seen you have clearly alligned yourself with the FSA and their anti Premier League agenda

I guess it would be Blackpool and Wycombe fans wanting to watch that match not billions of global football fans

Talk about been muddled

Oh and I've read the FSA statement with some of the shocking wording towards greedy so called owners, yet its the EFL clubs wanting handouts, how hypocritical can you get

It looks like you want a footballing civil war

You may just get your wish

Phil_bfc deux said:

Wow i mean its not like you to completely miss the point is it, you were proven utterly wrong on your defense of all things Oystons and i've seen you have clearly alligned yourself with the FSA and their anti Premier League agenda

I guess it would be Blackpool and Wycombe fans wanting to watch that match not billions of global football fans

Talk about been muddled

Oh and I've read the FSA statement with some of the shocking wording towards greedy so called owners, yet its the EFL clubs wanting handouts, how hypocritical can you get

It looks like you want a footballing civil war

You may just get your wish

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That footballing civil war has been going on for quite a while already. Had you not noticed?

I'm just amazed that you don't understand that any pyramid worth a damn needs lots of clubs at the base. And all those clubs have as much right to dream and aspire as all those above them.

basilrobbie3 said:

I'm just amazed that you don't understand that any pyramid worth a damn needs lots of clubs at the base. And all those clubs have as much right to dream and aspire as all those above them.

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Exactly so, and they are embedded into many communities at semi-professional level and shouldn`t be derided as "shite clubs in the bottom leagues".

Donning John Rawls` `veil of ignorance` would perhaps allow some to see things with greater clarity and empathy...

basilrobbie3 said:

That footballing civil war has been going on for quite a while already. Had you not noticed?

I'm just amazed that you don't understand that any pyramid worth a damn needs lots of clubs at the base. And all those clubs have as much right to dream and aspire as all those above them.

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I'm just amazed that your plan to improve the footballing pyramid is for the larger clubs to give handouts to fund the smaller clubs

Phil_bfc deux said:

I'm just amazed that your plan to improve the footballing pyramid is for the larger clubs to give handouts to fund the smaller clubs

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Is that the best you can do? You've had a couple of days to come up with that zinger.

i'll be honest i agree with Phil a little bit on this. Asking for big handouts from another organisation makes me feel uneasy. There needs to be so much more . If you'd have told me in the 80s that we'd end up with nearly ten thousand season ticket holders in the third tier I wouldn't have believed it. And yet with that and all the other commercial earnings we bring in the owner still has to stump up a few million every year just to keep us going. I'd also be amazed then that we would have bang average players that earn near to a quarter of a mill a year. That's the trouble and unless you address the wage issue then no matter how much extra you give clubs ...they'll just waste it on that . Under pressure from fans to be better.
As for clubs needing to have aspirations from the bottom...yeah like Bournemouth who now completely forget where they came from as seen in how they voted the other week. Clubs look after themselves depending on where they are and unity goes out the window.
There's something quite bizarre in people on here who have had a complete disdain for the Premier League for years and no real appreciation even for how successful it is now wanting to be propped up by it. Its like finding your wife is having an affair and then asking the other bloke to pay the mortgage for a few years. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about the Pyramid, it's still strong and something to be proud of. We as a club I think sit probably where we deserve to be at the moment in terms of support ( top end ish L1 ) and I don't think our chances of reaching the top flight have changed since 1992. That's what matters to me.
I do admit I don't have any real interest in football regulation and Robbie will be along to scold me. I'm more interested in football itself and watching games live or on TV and reading about it. The rest bores me. Surely though the way forward is scrapping parachute payments, spreading the money more evenly and a proper wage cap.

The "hand outs", as they are so charmingly described, are in part to smooth the distribution curve of money to help clubs cope with the impact of promotion and relegation. Without them, the current abyss between leagues would be even worse, but even so they are creating a particular problem between clubs in tiers 1 and 2, and between 2 and 3.

More fundamentally, our footballing culture is based upon competition and advancement through a pyramid. For it to work, you need other clubs to play against, so it is in the long term interests of the sport to nurture that pyramid and the the clubs that play in in it. That is called investment in the future - not doling out handouts.

We shouldn't forget that our top tier is heavily reliant upon talent identified, invested in and developed by the smaller clubs. They have a stake in that talent and we should look for ways to make sure that they are not just compensated when they lose it, but given an incentive to continue to look for the next example of it. Again, it is an investment in the sports future.

I wouldn't mind, but if the Leagues were willing and able to negotiate a fair and equitable deal on money, there would be no reason for external regulatory involvement, nor will there be in the future. And the section of the Bill that deals with it is a small part of a whole that addresses much, much more anyway.

basilrobbie3 said:

Is that the best you can do? You've had a couple of days to come up with that zinger.

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I don't post as much these days and i didn't know there was a time limit to reply

I've been busy today asking the larger companies in my industry for hand outs to help small companies like mine, not having much luck so far, maybe i will get a petition started and go the the government as it's just not fair

Phil_bfc deux said:

I don't post as much these days and i didn't know there was a time limit to reply

I've been busy today asking the larger companies in my industry for hand outs to help small companies like mine, not having much luck so far, maybe i will get a petition started and go the the government as it's just not fair

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That's a shame. Of course, unlike small clubs in the football pyramid, you probably haven't got thousands of people who identify with you or revere your company's history.

if you need any help in designing Parliamentary petitions or influencing Government policy, do let me know. Both BST and the FSA have relevant experience and a track record of success in both areas.

basilrobbie3 said:

We shouldn't forget that our top tier is heavily reliant upon talent identified, invested in and developed by the smaller clubs.

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'Heavily reliant ' is a bit of an exaggeration.

basilrobbie3 said:

That's a shame. Of course, unlike small clubs in the football pyramid, you probably haven't got thousands of people who identify with you or revere your company's history.

if you need any help in designing Parliamentary petitions or influencing Government policy, do let me know. Both BST and the FSA have relevant experience and a track record of success in both areas.

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I'm not sure you can claim any success yet, the story hasn't even got started

PNENIL said:

'Heavily reliant ' is a bit of an exaggeration.

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Not really, PNE.

Professional football clubs scout grass roots junior football and sign up young prospects: the vast majority of academy players come down this route. If they are successful they may get a career as a professional footballer.

My lad was signed at 10 from local junior football, and all the players in his cohort and been scouted in this way (including Adam Ramsdale who was his teammate).

Another lad who lives in our village was scouted in junior football and signed for Blackpool at 10. Everton bought him aged 12 for tens of thousands of pounds. That is how it works much of the time. Big clubs feed off lesser clubs, and there is a symbiotic relationship.

Adam Phillips was a junior with my lad at Myerscough: Blackburn scouted him, then Liverpool bought him from Blackburn. Same thing.

Could give you dozens of examples. `Heavily reliant` is really not an exaggeration.

All the junior clubs need funding and that is why the trickle down from the top leagues is necessary. Grass roots and semi-professional football are so important to the overall good health of our game...

What I find a bit odd is the call to distribute monies down the pyramid to support community based FC's when the community doesn't really support the FC.

Also there is a relativity thing going on too. The money gets smaller the lower you go. Surely that reinforces the divide(s). Plus the supply side, players agents would demand more.

I don't know the answer, but I'm certain giving Sutton Utd (name plucked from thin air) an extra £2m pa isn't it.

Phil_bfc deux said:

Why on earth should there be handouts to shite to clubs in the bottom leagues?

The Premier League clubs broke away in 1992 and have earned their own money with the Sky deals

I mean who honestly wants to watch Accrington play Crawley in front of 3,000 fans on TV?

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Premier League isn't actually 'broken away' though. There's a mutual relationship between it and the pyramid akin to that of a supermarket and suppliers.

At least some of the status and value of the premier league derives from the fact it is at the tip of a pyramid. Without that, it would have much more of an air of an exhibition.

It also relies on the pyramid to supply it with fresh 'narratives' for TV viewers. It's perfectly conceivable that Luton might have gone bust and then some of the most intense games this season with proper David vs Goliath vibe wouldn't have happened. Those games give the premier league it's global appeal as well as City vs Liverpool.

It is the fact that it is part of a competitive system that the Premier League has greater traction than the Saudi league, the Chinese league etc. It's also got greater pull for players because it's palpably a proper test.

In other words, if it were to *actually* break away it would lose value. It is therefore beholden to acknowledge that it needs (indirectly) Crawley vs Accrington. You are right. No one wants to watch it. People do however need on some level to know it exists and is of a certain standard.

If the league (or to push it further, the top 6) genuinely broke away and simply derived it's value from the same teams playing each other over and over in a relegation and promotion free format, it would seriously lose credibility.

To return to the original point - It is not in the interests of the supermarket to make the price of milk so low that all the farmers pack up and go home. Why should the supermarket pay more than it wants to? Because it needs the milk.

Accrington Stanley? who are they?

Exactly.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure about regulatory bodies but...

The current situation is absurd. The Premier League has effectively created the current situation whereby teams must 'gamble' because of its policy and impact of success breeding success and money breeding money.... (place money plus champions league money plus global revenue boost for leading team through exposure to global market of fans meaning top teams are then in receipt of greater resource to maintain status as top team)

It just seems a bit ** weird that having created that culture of cliff edge finances and leagues within leagues that they're then marching about slapping fines on for teams for spending money.

It's like a pub landlord fining customers for having 'one too many'

I'm not sure how regulation can work really without dealing with the financial structures and they're at least partly tied to European level decision making.

Regulation is well intended and definitely can do something in cases like ours which were not so much about competitive over spending but an owner misusing power/money.

In cases like, say, Derby where essentially (and yes, I'm over simplifying), the crime is betting the house to try to win games/promotion- it's harder because until you sort out the massive income differentials then how are teams supposed to progress.

'Gambling' has always been part of football. You go back to the early days and you've the 'bank of England ' clubs. The early premier League was defined by Blackburn and Newcastle as much as anyone else. Both of them had an unreal transformation on and off the pitch in a very short period of time. Would they be able to do that under a regulatory body?

I'm no defender of the Premier League - but it does worry me that, for better or worse, competition is needed and that has always, to some degree come from investment, more so in a post salary cap era - Even forest under Clough, hailed as an example of budget miracle champions were virtually bankrupt in the early 80s and had to flog everyone.

In short. I don't know the answer. I applaud the efforts of the people who've worked very hard on regulation and I think it will do good. I'm not sure it's THE answer though.

spudgun said:

Not really, PNE.

Professional football clubs scout grass roots junior football and sign up young prospects: the vast majority of academy players come down this route. If they are successful they may get a career as a professional footballer.

My lad was signed at 10 from local junior football, and all the players in his cohort and been scouted in this way (including Adam Ramsdale who was his teammate).

Another lad who lives in our village was scouted in junior football and signed for Blackpool at 10. Everton bought him aged 12 for tens of thousands of pounds. That is how it works much of the time. Big clubs feed off lesser clubs, and there is a symbiotic relationship.

Adam Phillips was a junior with my lad at Myerscough: Blackburn scouted him, then Liverpool bought him from Blackburn. Same thing.

Could give you dozens of examples. `Heavily reliant` is really not an exaggeration.

All the junior clubs need funding and that is why the trickle down from the top leagues is necessary. Grass roots and semi-professional football are so important to the overall good health of our game...

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I'd definitely agree on grassroots. It's a national disgrace that we don't have an all weather community facility on every street corner and the popularity of football being leveraged to create a healthier and more socially engaged population.

It's a right shame if some professional clubs struggle but it's disgusting that kids teams are scratching around looking for pitches, playing on swamps and in crap facilities.

We should have the best football infrastructure in the world, bar none. We've had the income for decades to achieve it. It could be transformative. Domes in every town over say 10k - pitches upgraded everywhere. Brownfield wasteland turned into green fields for coaching and community work.

That proper enrages me that we don't.

We deserved to lose to Iceland in 2010 cos they put their heart and soul into building football into their culture from bottom up. We didn't. We spunked the billion times more resources we had on agents and million quid contracts for 3rd choice keepers and wasted the platform we had to use football to make lived experience better for generations of kids and indeed adults.

fcblackpool said:

What I find a bit odd is the call to distribute monies down the pyramid to support community based FC's when the community doesn't really support the FC.

Also there is a relativity thing going on too. The money gets smaller the lower you go. Surely that reinforces the divide(s). Plus the supply side, players agents would demand more.

I don't know the answer, but I'm certain giving Sutton Utd (name plucked from thin air) an extra £2m pa isn't it.

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I'd like to see a greater parity but I agree that there's a problem. You give clubs more, players wages go up. Problem remains.

Ideally I'd like to see top clubs get less because that might deflate the wages - but then you diminish ability to compete globally.

I always come round to a tiered salary cap as least worst answer. It's very, very, very unlikely to happen and would likely need to happen at continental or even global level which makes it even more unlikely but to be honest. I'd love to see less concentration of the best players in one place and world football as a whole being strong - i.e. I'd love a proper world club cup where Argentine or Nogerian teams were a real force, rather than it just being a couple of European teams fighting it out and sweeping all aside.

Perhaps global club competition like that might be a partial answer as if they become the key draw for TV and advertising, it might make the domestic leagues a little less valuable and that might actually be good for the pyramid in that it is the insane inflation of players wages driven by TV income that is the biggest cost/risk.

I dunno.

td53 said:

I'd definitely agree on grassroots. It's a national disgrace that we don't have an all weather community facility on every street corner and the popularity of football being leveraged to create a healthier and more socially engaged population.

It's a right shame if some professional clubs struggle but it's disgusting that kids teams are scratching around looking for pitches, playing on swamps and in crap facilities.

We should have the best football infrastructure in the world, bar none. We've had the income for decades to achieve it. It could be transformative. Domes in every town over say 10k - pitches upgraded everywhere. Brownfield wasteland turned into green fields for coaching and community work.

That proper enrages me that we don't.

We deserved to lose to Iceland in 2010 cos they put their heart and soul into building football into their culture from bottom up. We didn't. We spunked the billion times more resources we had on agents and million quid contracts for 3rd choice keepers and wasted the platform we had to use football to make lived experience better for generations of kids and indeed adults.

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Great post. When you think about the money football has received over the last 25 years to not have those facilities available for everyone is a real shame.

td53 said:

I'd definitely agree on grassroots. It's a national disgrace that we don't have an all weather community facility on every street corner and the popularity of football being leveraged to create a healthier and more socially engaged population.

It's a right shame if some professional clubs struggle but it's disgusting that kids teams are scratching around looking for pitches, playing on swamps and in crap facilities.

We should have the best football infrastructure in the world, bar none. We've had the income for decades to achieve it. It could be transformative. Domes in every town over say 10k - pitches upgraded everywhere. Brownfield wasteland turned into green fields for coaching and community work.

That proper enrages me that we don't.

We deserved to lose to Iceland in 2010 cos they put their heart and soul into building football into their culture from bottom up. We didn't. We spunked the billion times more resources we had on agents and million quid contracts for 3rd choice keepers and wasted the platform we had to use football to make lived experience better for generations of kids and indeed adults.

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I wish I could like this post 100x.

td53 said:

I'd like to see a greater parity but I agree that there's a problem. You give clubs more, players wages go up. Problem remains.

Ideally I'd like to see top clubs get less because that might deflate the wages - but then you diminish ability to compete globally.

I always come round to a tiered salary cap as least worst answer. It's very, very, very unlikely to happen and would likely need to happen at continental or even global level which makes it even more unlikely but to be honest. I'd love to see less concentration of the best players in one place and world football as a whole being strong - i.e. I'd love a proper world club cup where Argentine or Nogerian teams were a real force, rather than it just being a couple of European teams fighting it out and sweeping all aside.

Perhaps global club competition like that might be a partial answer as if they become the key draw for TV and advertising, it might make the domestic leagues a little less valuable and that might actually be good for the pyramid in that it is the insane inflation of players wages driven by TV income that is the biggest cost/risk.

I dunno.

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You make some good points

Certainly better than the FSA and BST approach of getting the big clubs to bail out the small ones by gifting them a shed load of cash

Phil_bfc deux said:

Why on earth should there be handouts to shite to clubs in the bottom leagues?

The Premier League clubs broke away in 1992 and have earned their own money with the Sky deals

I mean who honestly wants to watch Accrington play Crawley in front of 3,000 fans on TV?

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The Premier League owes a damn sight more to the EFL than it cares to admit.
It benefits hugely from the work done by EFL clubs to unearth and develop talent.

Many players are first spotted and nurtured at lower levels.
Take the current England squad as an example. Of the 25 originally selected, 15 came through EFL academies.
(Plus another 3, Walker, Maguire & Ramsdale, who started off at Sheff Utd, who will be back in the EFL in a few weeks)

And many top flight English players made their first team debuts while on loan to EFL clubs, accelerating their development in a manner that Premier League U23 games cannot match.

Eight current top flight managers honed their skills in the EFL.
As did crucial but lower profile staff such as scouts, DoFs and chief execs. The ManYoo-bound Dan Ashworth began his exec career with Peterborough & Cambridge. Liverpool’s new sporting director, Richard Hughes, started off at Bournemouth in League One.

It’s only by ensuring EFL clubs’ survival and strength that the Premier League can depend on all that talent, playing and non-playing, continuing to flow through and increasing further in quality.

And without that quality, the Premier League’s multi-billion pound TV deals would be somewhat less.

Giving more money to EFL clubs isn’t a handout. It’s an investment.

Toastrack said:

The Premier League owes a damn sight more to the EFL than it cares to admit.
It benefits hugely from the work done by EFL clubs to unearth and develop talent.

Many players are first spotted and nurtured at lower levels.
Take the current England squad as an example. Of the 25 originally selected, 15 came through EFL academies.
(Plus another 3, Walker, Maguire & Ramsdale, who started off at Sheff Utd, who will be back in the EFL in a few weeks)

And many top flight English players made their first team debuts while on loan to EFL clubs, accelerating their development in a manner that Premier League U23 games cannot match.

Eight current top flight managers honed their skills in the EFL.
As did crucial but lower profile staff such as scouts, DoFs and chief execs. The ManYoo-bound Dan Ashworth began his exec career with Peterborough & Cambridge. Liverpool’s new sporting director, Richard Hughes, started off at Bournemouth in League One.

It’s only by ensuring EFL clubs’ survival and strength that the Premier League can depend on all that talent, playing and non-playing, continuing to flow through and increasing further in quality.

And without that quality, the Premier League’s multi-billion pound TV deals would be somewhat less.

Giving more money to EFL clubs isn’t a handout. It’s an investment.

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Yeah i know all that and its one of the benefits of having a football pyramid, that's not changing is it? the points you make show that the current system works and that football isn't broken at all

oh and It's only an investment if the money is spent wisely, you only have to look at how the Oyston's behaved to see that it very rarely gets spent wisely

People still haven't told me how much the EFL clubs should get or how it will improve football

Phil_bfc deux said:

Yeah i know all that and its one of the benefits of having a football pyramid, that's not changing is it? the points you make show that the current system works and that football isn't broken at all

oh and It's only an investment if the money is spent wisely, you only have to look at how the Oyston's behaved to see that it very rarely gets spent wisely

People still haven't told me how much the EFL clubs should get or how it will improve football

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I think realistic practical things they could implement without asking for hadouts would be useful.

Maybe Prem clubs should loan a certain number of players to teams lower down the pyramid without paying any of their wages?

Maybe mandatory 5% sell on clause when a Prem club buys an EFL player under the age of 23? That way everyone is a winner, the Prem teams benefit from the players developing, the EFL teams get to use the players at low cost and when the rare player becomes a superstar and sells for tens of millions the EFL club will make a substantial sum.