Additional death figures...

kuriousoranj

kuriousoranj

Well-known member
in care homes are, according to the Office of National Statistics are in excess of 18,000. The government has said that 8,000 died of CV does anyone know or would care to guess what the other 10,000 died of?

Keir Starmer today ask Boris Johnson in the HOC but once again the great communicator that is Boris Johnson couldn't answer in joined up sentences.
 
I would say end of life but suspect a high % due to putting wrong cause of death on death certificate. All before Coronavirus Act.
 
todayistheday said:
I would say end of life but suspect a high % due to putting wrong cause of death on death certificate. All before Coronavirus Act.
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8000 out of the 18000 excess deaths would probably say that we are under reporting Covid, not exaggerating.

If that's what you were insinuating.
 
I would say well over 8000 died of covid but most of the excess would have died sooner rather than later having pnumonia,copd,severe dementia etc.

Insinuating,are you for ** real.
 
todayistheday said:
I would say well over 8000 died of covid but most of the excess would have died sooner rather than later having pnumonia,copd,severe dementia etc.

Insinuating,are you for ** real.
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What I thought you were insinuating was that it wasn't as many as 8000 that died due to Covid. Clearly you wasn't judging by your reply and I take it back.
 
There could be lots of reasons for this number, but (as usual) KO has already decided which one is the only one.

In any case, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that the numbers of deaths in care homes was ALWAYS going to be very high. Given the nature of the illness, the underlying health of the people who Iive in these settings and the impossibility of maintaining social distancing within them, I for one would not be surprised if we end up losing more people from this sector than we do from all the others put together.

The numbers are sobering, and very tragic. But I'm not sure that the Government and the care professionals themselves could have done a lot more to help this group, because this is not just a matter of throwing cash at a problem. Not when asymptomatic people could have brought the wolf through the door before people were certain that there was a wolf to begin with.
 
I can't support the idea that the government has done well during this situation. In my view, their lack of skill, experience and leadership (thought or otherwise) has been shown up pretty clearly. But I also feel that the figures themselves are not easy to decipher in black and white terms. We've heard plenty of stories about individuals who have died and in so many cases, they had underlying health conditions. As heartless as this may sound, there was a strong likelihood that these people's conditions would have left them vulnerable to other viruses too.

Basic example is my aunt. She died last autumn from heart failure/cardiac arrest after being in a care home for a few years after a major stroke. The previous winter she'd been close to dying in the Vic after getting pneumonia. Had she caught COVID, she'd have almost certainly died. But would COVID-19 really have been the cause of death?
 
Point of order.. The reported number of deaths died WITH covid 19 not OF COVID 19... Massive difference in this debate..

Not for the family obvioulsy..
 
basilrobbie said:
The numbers are sobering, and very tragic. But I'm not sure that the Government and the care professionals themselves could have done a lot more to help this group, because this is not just a matter of throwing cash at a problem. Not when asymptomatic people could have brought the wolf through the door before people were certain that there was a wolf to begin with.
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Sorry, Robbie, cannot agree. The NHS got total priority over everyone, including care homes, for PPE at the start, for reasons in the guidance that Boris and Keir are currently arguing over. That was a decision, which, with the benefit of hindsight, was wrong. Some carehomes, including that which my MiL is in, which is a high dependency facility, locked down a week before March 23rd, and had already enough PPE stockpiled to survive. Many others were still allowing visitors in April, and, as basic care homes for those without medical issues, did not have the expertise present to suddenly hit high levels of Infection Control. Add into that mix, hospitals sending patients back to carehomes having been in an environment where the virus was present, and it was a disaster waiting to happen.

I am really uneasy at the persistent justification for letting people die that "they would have died anyway". We all die, so why is one person's life worth so much more than another's, it seems callous in the extreme.
 
basilrobbie said:
But I'm not sure that the Government and the care professionals themselves could have done a lot more to help this group
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My grandad was in hospital with a different illness, but contracted Covid-19, he got over it thankfully, but they were trying to send him back to his care home only three days after testing positive for it, we had to beg them not to do this as we didnt want his friends and staff at the care home contracting it from him. We were told it was government policy by the hospital, and that he would not be tested to see if he was now negative.

They were going to do it, but luckily he then got a different infection which meant he had to stay in, and by the time he was clear of that the policy had changed and he was retested before being sent out.

So yes there was more the government could have done, and there was no common sense to do what they wanted, freeing up one bed but possibly infecting 25 other people at his care home, not very sensible to me.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Sorry, Robbie, cannot agree. The NHS got total priority over everyone, including care homes, for PPE at the start, for reasons in the guidance that Boris and Keir are currently arguing over. That was a decision, which, with the benefit of hindsight, was wrong. Some carehomes, including that which my MiL is in, which is a high dependency facility, locked down a week before March 23rd, and had already enough PPE stockpiled to survive. Many others were still allowing visitors in April, and, as basic care homes for those without medical issues, did not have the expertise present to suddenly hit high levels of Infection Control. Add into that mix, hospitals sending patients back to carehomes having been in an environment where the virus was present, and it was a disaster waiting to happen.

I am really uneasy at the persistent justification for letting people die that "they would have died anyway". We all die, so why is one person's life worth so much more than another's, it seems callous in the extreme.
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No need to apologise Moss, we can agree to disagree. Not that I think you are wrong that the NHS was prioritised - it was. But at the time the fear was that it would be swamped, if you remember. I think there was no "right" decision to be made here, personally, all of the options were very difficult.

On your last paragraph, just to be clear, I didn't say that, although one or two others have come close to it.
 
basilrobbie said:
There could be lots of reasons for this number, but (as usual) KO has already decided which one is the only one.

In any case, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that the numbers of deaths in care homes was ALWAYS going to be very high. Given the nature of the illness, the underlying health of the people who Iive in these settings and the impossibility of maintaining social distancing within them, I for one would not be surprised if we end up losing more people from this sector than we do from all the others put together.

The numbers are sobering, and very tragic. But I'm not sure that the Government and the care professionals themselves could have done a lot more to help this group, because this is not just a matter of throwing cash at a problem. Not when asymptomatic people could have brought the wolf through the door before people were certain that there was a wolf to begin with.
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The situation wasn't helped by offloading as many as possible out of hospital to make space for the anticipated COVID surge. It only takes a few asymptomatic people for it to spread like wildfire in care homes. Hindsight of course, but something to learn from if there's a second surge.
 
This excessive death rate was covered on the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 today.
And the figure slightly wrong....it's 50,000 (deaths over the expected death rate in the last 2 months)

There are 50,000 (extra?) or non explained deaths
It's called 'Harvesting'.....i.e....your family member is 94 with chronic heart disease and in need of 24 hour care.
They (Health professionals) have you down as 'soon to die'.....and that is broken down into a monthly and yearly estimate to say how bad the year has been.
And this is why they cant explain why 50,000 extra deaths have been recorded as this number were not down to 'pass away' and has sharply increased from 2019

Could be C-19....could be multiple explanations.
In fact, the department who collate these stats say that were either underestimating the death toll by 50,000 or over estimating the death toll by 5,000.........🤔
The only way they will know the 'closest' death toll will be once we hit 0 infections
They then have their estimated death rate for 9 months......and the confirmed death rate......they take a - b......This gives an estimate to how many should have died and anything above should/would/could be because of (the effect) of C-19..........and then we find someone to blame.....and complain about.....and use it as a stick to beat people with.......as we always do......
 
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