As we were saying...

Wizaard said:
I've never once said they are. Of course there's some culpability born out of their culture of secrecy, but that doesnt excuse our continued failure to react appropriately, or heaven forbid, act proactively to reduce the impact.
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Here we go again. Previously you said every UK death was laid at the governments door. Now you say there's some culpability for China. Which is it? I'd suggest it's the latter and that culpability has caused over 2 million deaths. How many lives would have been saved if they'd been honest. As I said on the other thread, watch the programme. Wuhan hospitals were admitting 1500 cases per day and yes it did show inside a hospital. All this at a time when they were saying the disease wasn't transmitted human to human.

But hey, "some culpability" is ok in your mind.
 
20togo said:
I love your logic Wiz.
Taking your logic, it's like saying Germany started two world wars but our countries deaths were our fault because we went to war with them. Not a nice analogy I know, but that's the logic you are using by putting every single uk death at the govts door..

Right, so they closed their incoming borders in March but KNOWINGLY allowed their residents to take the virus to all parts of the globe. But hey, that's not their issue. Of course it is. They needed to show some responsibility from the outset. That was in December 2019 and they showed NONE.
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So by your reckoning Neville Chamberlain should have stayed on as PM through WW2?
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So by your reckoning Neville Chamberlain should have stayed on as PM through WW2?
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errrrr.... no. I'm saying we had to make decisions and take action because of others so that doesn't make us directly responsible because of that.
 
20togo said:
errrrr.... no. I'm saying we had to make decisions and take action because of others so that doesn't make us directly responsible because of that.
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But you would have had no truck with the Norway debate as it was all Germany's fault?
 
Wizaard said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Covid-19: 'Poor decisions' to blame for UK death toll, scientists say

A "legacy of poor decisions" in 2020 and before the pandemic led to 100,000 deaths, scientists say.
www.bbc.co.uk

Pretty damning indictment of how we've handled the crisis.

Johnson accepts "full responsibility"
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I'm one for saying now probably isn't the time for this. Bad form to have a loved one taken in to hospital with this and hear prominent people/outlets basically say 'it's the Govt's fault that they are going into hospital'. Also it undermines the messages given over lockdown. 'What do they know, idiots have f'ed this up'.

The time will come.

China didn't 'release' this thing, it spread naturally as people spread. They could have part closed the borders and allowed corridors, yes, but it was always going to spread to other countries.

On BJ, he'll go, I said March, or when he can be in a position to write his book: 'How I Delivered Brexit AND conquered Covid' and take the mills on offer.

Oh, and congratulations Wiz on your new job as Dir Gen of the BBC, spreading all these lies 😷
 
fcblackpool said:
I'm one for saying now probably isn't the time for this. Bad form to have a loved one taken in to hospital with this and hear prominent people/outlets basically say 'it's the Govt's fault that they are going into hospital'. Also it undermines the messages given over lockdown. 'What do they know, idiots have f'ed this up'.

The time will come.

China didn't 'release' this thing, it spread naturally as people spread. They could have part closed the borders and allowed corridors, yes, but it was always going to spread to other countries.

On BJ, he'll go, I said March, or when he can be in a position to write his book: 'How I Delivered Brexit AND conquered Covid' and take the mills on offer.

Oh, and congratulations Wiz on your new job as Dir Gen of the BBC, spreading all these lies 😷
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Yep, "release" was probably a bad choice of word.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
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In Your Hand

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This is a deeply depressing thread. Anyone who watched last night`s BBC in depth documentary with many Chinese interviewed will be aware that the Chinese government desperately tried to cover things up for far too long and forced medical staff to be silent.They even claimed for some time that it was not transmittable between human beings well after there was plenty of evidence to prove it was.They are undoubtedly criminally responsible for this pandemic and anyone who doubts that should watch the documentary which makes things crystal clear.

As far as BJ is concerned he has disappointingly made a number of poor decisions but unlike the Chinese he has had the best of if misguided intentions throughout.
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
This is a deeply depressing thread. Anyone who watched last night`s BBC in depth documentary with many Chinese interviewed will be aware that the Chinese government desperately tried to cover things up for far too long and forced medical staff to be silent.They even claimed for some time that it was not transmittable between human beings well after there was plenty of evidence to prove it was.They are undoubtedly criminally responsible for this pandemic and anyone who doubts that should watch the documentary which makes things crystal clear.

As far as BJ is concerned he has disappointingly made a number of poor decisions but unlike the Chinese he has had the best of if misguided intentions throughout.
Click to expand...
Poor decisions have led to thousands of needless deaths. Deaths that are not excused by 'good intentions'.
 
I think there is a real danger of looking at this in a binary way.

I have no doubt that the Chinese Government are withholding a great deal of information about how this happened, and what they did initially to counter it. They are secretive, they are repressive of their population and if blame is being apportioned, they must take a big slice of it.

But this isn't a case of "China bad, everyone else good". And it is perfectly valid to say that - in the face of a crisis created elsewhere - the performance of the UK Government in a number of areas has been abysmal. They should be held to account for their part in it.

There is a bigger question for us domestically about the failings of a political system that puts such fourth-rate politicians in positions of such influence over our lives. But for the purposes of this thread, the two main arguments being put forward are NOT mutually exclusive.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
This is a deeply depressing thread. Anyone who watched last night`s BBC in depth documentary with many Chinese interviewed will be aware that the Chinese government desperately tried to cover things up for far too long and forced medical staff to be silent.They even claimed for some time that it was not transmittable between human beings well after there was plenty of evidence to prove it was.They are undoubtedly criminally responsible for this pandemic and anyone who doubts that should watch the documentary which makes things crystal clear.

As far as BJ is concerned he has disappointingly made a number of poor decisions but unlike the Chinese he has had the best of if misguided intentions throughout.
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Well said. I get the impression on here some are too scared to face the truth of what actually has gone on China as it will destroy their argument that it's all our govts fault. Nowhere have I read that people who are still arguing the toss on here have actually said they've watched the programme and seen the extent of Chinas lies, deceit and cover up.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So by your reckoning Neville Chamberlain should have stayed on as PM through WW2?
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I do not think any other government would have done much better on the pandemic. It is very well criticising with the benefit of hindsight, but I remember Corbyn saying he would not wear a mask and did he not also have a birthday party with several guests?
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Poor decisions have led to thousands of needless deaths. Deaths that are not excused by 'good intentions'.
Click to expand...
I accept that and have been critical many times of our government`s failings in dealing with this pandemic and the excessive loss of life that has thus resulted though for balance they should take great credit for their actions in so promptly making the vaccines available here.

It is a tragedy and often watching the news,the enormous loss of life and the extraordinary and continuous pressure our precious NHS staff are under has moved me to tears.

However for all our country`s failings there is a huge difference between them and the criminal actions of the Chinese government.As my son said to me there was only one thing we agreed with Donald Trump about and that was his description of Covid 19 as "the Chinese disease."

It would be nice if for once on here we could set aside political prejudice when discussing Covid 19.

Pigs might fly!
 
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tangysider said:
I do not think any other government would have done much better on the pandemic. It is very well criticising with the benefit of hindsight, but I remember Corbyn saying he would not wear a mask and did he not also have a birthday party with several guests?
Click to expand...
When was Corbyn making the policy? Out of the 195 countries in the world, 194 have made a better job of it.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
I accept that and have been critical many times of our government`s failings in dealing with this pandemic and the excessive loss of life that has thus resulted though for balance they should take great credit for their actions in so promptly making the vaccines available here.

It is a tragedy that often watching the news,the enormous loss of life and the extraordinary and continuous pressure our precious NHS staff are under has often moved me to weep.

However for all our country`s failings there is a huge difference between them and the criminal actions of the Chinese government.As my son said to me there was only one thing we agreed with Donald Trump about and that was his description of Covid 19 as the Chinese disease.

It would be nice if for once on here we could set aside political prejudice when discussing Covid 19.

Pigs might fly!
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but I think you've interpreted my post as a personal slight. Not at all. I accept, without qualification, the sincerity of your beliefs, as set out in your latest post. Nor do I excuse China's responsibilities in allowing the conditions that led to the Covid cross-over to humanity. Or its misinformation and cover ups. But this is not about proportions of blame. Every failure of a national Government in containing the disease and mitigating its spread only compounds the problem - as you point out above.
 
Wizaard said:
When was Corbyn making the policy? Out of the 195 countries in the world, 194 have made a better job of it.
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So America, Brazil and Mexico have done better to name but 3?
I atill think there are specific issue that UK has. Population density Age demographic and the fact a lot of people ignored all the rules. So I will remain totally unconvinced that had Corbyn won last election Labour would have done better. His replacement seems to revel to much in the blame game, a little like your good self.
 
tangysider said:
So America, Brazil and Mexico have done better to name but 3?
I atill think there are specific issue that UK has. Population density Age demographic and the fact a lot of people ignored all the rules. So I will remain totally unconvinced that had Corbyn won last election Labour would have done better. His replacement seems to revel to much in the blame game, a little like your good self.
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We have the highest death rate per capita in Europe. As you know, America and Brazil.actively went out of their way to ignore any precautions. We're matching them for deaths. Managed it really well.

Corbyn is a complete irrelevance. You might as well say the Lib Dems would have handed it worse. One party won with an 80 majority and have completely mismanaged the situation from day one and continue to do so, with the exception of the vaccine programme.
 
Wizaard said:
We have the highest death rate per capita in Europe. As you know, America and Brazil.actively went out of their way to ignore any precautions. We're matching them for deaths. Managed it really well.

Corbyn is a complete irrelevance. You might as well say the Lib Dems would have handed it worse. One party won with an 80 majority and have completely mismanaged the situation from day one and continue to do so, with the exception of the vaccine programme.
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Right, thanks for that. It's just opinion then.
 
Wizaard said:
We have the highest death rate per capita in Europe. As you know, America and Brazil.actively went out of their way to ignore any precautions. We're matching them for deaths. Managed it really well.
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So by your logic because America and Brazil ignored the precautions it let's them off the hook and makes them better than us! Crazy..
 
20togo said:
So by your logic because America and Brazil ignored the precautions it let's them off the hook and makes them better than us! Crazy..
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No. You're analysis of my statement is crazy.

They've done fuck all and yet they're no worse off than us. That shows how abjectly we've managed the situation.
 
Wizaard said:
No. You're analysis of my statement is crazy.

They've done fuck all and yet they're no worse off than us. That shows how abjectly we've managed the situation.
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Nope I can be objective, you can't. In your eyes EVERYTHING is the govt's fault. Remember you blamed the govt for every single death.
 
basilrobbie said:
There is a bigger question for us domestically about the failings of a political system that puts such fourth-rate politicians in positions of such influence over our lives. But for the purposes of this thread, the two main arguments being put forward are NOT mutually exclusive.
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I totally agree that in recent times we have failed to produce political leaders of anywhere near the quality and stature that we need.

How I wonder can we resolve this?

Is it our system of attracting the quality of individual into politics that`s flawed and if so how could we improve it? Perhaps great leaders are historically just few and far between and currently we are deeply between them.

As for the two main arguments heatedly debated on here that you refer to, each has some merit although undoubtedly the root cause of over 2 million deaths world wide is the criminal deceit and self centred irresponsibility of the Chinese government.

I personally think Boris is temperamentally and intellectually unsuited to the role required in this time of a pandemic though of course apart from BFCx3 few of the electorate anticipated he would have to deal with this kind crisis when we elected him. In fact I think he only supported Brexit because it was a means to achieve his relentless ambition to become PM rather than any principled stance or deeply held belief. Corbyn the alternative at that time was clearly unelectable as many voters recognized and reflected very poorly on the quality and wisdom of the Labour party in ever choosing him as their leader.
 
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20togo said:
Nope I can be objective, you can't. In your eyes EVERYTHING is the govt's fault. Remember you blamed the govt for every single death.
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Yes, you objectively put everything at China's door and excuse everyone else.

While no doubt buying Chinese products.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Looking at the media today I am thinking that there may have been a decision by the men in suits to sacrifice Johnson over his Covid mistakes and the Brexit 'teething' problems. It sort of solves a problem, blame can be laid at Johnson's door, and the government can move on with a new leader putting the past behind them. It would kill two birds with one stone just as things are probably going to get significantly better.
Both the Mail and Telegraph, from what I have heard, have lead with something similar today, surely that is a barometer of Conservative thinking atm. I wonder if / when a potential new leader will put his / her head above the parapet.
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"just as things are probably going to get significantly better." I think you are being optimistic, mate. And I'm not blaming Johnson.
 
Hertsseasider said:
So China released the virus. Pray tell be how they could have not done so. PS - huge numbers of people travel in and out of China all the time ((well did anyway) including thousands of Brits and other Europeans who wanted (needed) to get home
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Agreed, it would have hit us anyhow. However, it does not absolve China of its dishonesty and secrecy.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
I do hope you are not suggesting that we all stop the Chinese takeaways just because they spread a little virus around the planet ?


Roast duck with mushrooms and fried rice and a giant spring roll on the side please.
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No, because the vast majority of Chinese restaurants will be owned by people who have been here generations.
 
Wizaard said:
We have the highest death rate per capita in Europe. As you know, America and Brazil.actively went out of their way to ignore any precautions. We're matching them for deaths. Managed it really well.

Corbyn is a complete irrelevance. You might as well say the Lib Dems would have handed it worse. One party won with an 80 majority and have completely mismanaged the situation from day one and continue to do so, with the exception of the vaccine programme.
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A large part of the population of the UK have handled it no better than the government, Wiz.
 
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