Australia scraps French submarine contract

Lala said:
Let’s face it , we share a lot of similar values with Australia.
They didn’t need a Brexit because they didn’t tie themselves up with other nations rules and regs in the first place.

Their immigration policy as an island, is similar to what we are implementing, going forward. But they have the joys off not being called ‘racist’ for adopting such a policy by never having to detach themselves from a European state.

Nobody hates Australia.

As an island we are heading back towards the same principles they adhere to in many ways.
The Australian PM instigated this, so maybe our comparison as a nation contributed to this decision to dump the French deal and forge a new beneficial one with ourselves and the US.
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Well we and the Aussies speak 'almost' the same language. So that's a plus with communication. ;) 👍
 
Under the terms of the pact I can't find any reference to any contract for places like Barrow etc. It simply says that the US will share the tech and the Subs will be built in Australia. I assume some of you think that various parts will be manufactured here? Genuine question.
 
southshorepool said:
Under the terms of the pact I can't find any reference to any contract for places like Barrow etc. It simply says that the US will share the tech and the Subs will be built in Australia. I assume some of you think that various parts will be manufactured here? Genuine question.
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Yes. PM Morrison has said the subs will be built in Adelaide.
 
seasideone said:
Sorry Frenchies - the US do not trust you with Nuclear secrets.

This is only the second country the US has shared this tech with and we are obviously the other one.

If you want old Diesel boats then buy off France, if you want shinny new Nuclear powered boats, and want to stick it to the Chinese come to the US and the UK - and if you are very good we might share the tech.

Macron need not apply!

One thing I did consider, is this a giant leap for Australia to become the owner of Nuclear weapons??
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Not quite true, I am afraid. France has 10 nuclear powered subs, including 4 SSBMs (nuclear deterrent missile boats) which are similar in size to our Vanguard class.

However their SSNs (attack boats), apart from one, tend to be much smaller than our Astute class boats, at about half the tonnage. I suspect the Aussies want to buy large SSNs with coverage of the Pacific in mind.
 
Shandypants said:
Are you saying the anti French brexiteers are talking nonsense?
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I’m saying no one knows yet where the contracts will go mainly because there’s an 18 month scoping exercise to decide things like that.

But the Australian PM has said the subs will be built in Adelaide (not Barrow) and BAE are currently building frigates for the Australian navy in Adelaide (not Barrow). Using their employees over there. So there’s a logic in assuming the same will apply for the subs. Whether some parts may be built in the North West, and shipped over, I have no idea.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m saying no one knows yet where the contracts will go mainly because there’s an 18 month scoping exercise to decide things like that.

But the Australian PM has said the subs will be built in Adelaide (not Barrow) and BAE are currently building frigates for the Australian navy in Adelaide (not Barrow). Using their employees over there. So there’s a logic in assuming the same will apply for the subs. Whether some parts may be built in the North West, and shipped over, I have no idea.
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You're not saying that the Brexiteers haven't managed to get all the facts? That must be the first time that's ever happened.
 
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Tangojoe said:
There’s not much that annoys President Macron more than France losing a £43bn military contract, but losing it to the UK has apparently made him 'very bitter'. He's accused Australia of betrayal after it pulled out of its submarine supply agreement with France in order to forge closer ties with the UK and the US.

Together with the US the UK will now help Australia build nuclear-powered submarines instead of the relatively primitive diesel-powered vessels. These can stay submerged for longer, move faster and are almost undetectable when underwater.

In a statement, Macron complained that Australia’s decision is contrary to the letter and spirit of cooperation that prevailed between France and Australia. Michel Barnier added “This behaviour between allies is unacceptable”. French foreign affairs minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said the decision by Australia was a “stab in the back”. However, the Franco-Australian deal was already facing problems with increasing tensions between French shipbuilder Naval Group and Australia over rocketing costs and unwanted design changes.

Meanwhile, the UK has announced the new deal as one of its most significant collaborations in years, particularly for the North West of England, with BAE Systems in Barrow and other local suppliers expected to receive a massive boost to the economy and employment. Boris Johnson said that the AUKUS alliance will bring the UK, US and Australia closer together, creating a new defence partnership and driving jobs and prosperity.

Does anyone see the irony of the French President complaining about Australia failing to recognise the spirit of cooperation between the two countries. Not really his own strong point is it?

Anyway, I await posters' congratulations to Boris and his government for a spectacular result.
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Can we not build anything more useful with our international partners than nuclear subs?
If we can't and this is the pinnacle of human achievement at least it employs people in the North of England.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m saying no one knows yet where the contracts will go mainly because there’s an 18 month scoping exercise to decide things like that.

But the Australian PM has said the subs will be built in Adelaide (not Barrow) and BAE are currently building frigates for the Australian navy in Adelaide (not Barrow). Using their employees over there. So there’s a logic in assuming the same will apply for the subs. Whether some parts may be built in the North West, and shipped over, I have no idea.
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Massive brexit victory* and one in the eye for Macron so they masses on here will be happy.
*pokes the French in the eye whilst we suffer a broken nose, two black eyes and a fractured skull
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
You're not saying that the Brexiteers haven't manager to get all the facts? That must be the first time that's ever happened.
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Well they do seem to get a bit muddled sometimes I agree.

I recall there was a thread recently (can’t recall who the op was) which tried to infer the U.K.’s defence spend far outstripped the money spent by the EU members. When that was shown to be nonsense he insisted he’d meant the U.K. only outspent 24 of the smaller members. When that was also shown to be untrue he got all narky and quite rude.

I do wish I could remember who the poster was. Whoever it might be I’m sure he couldn’t make the same mistake and post bollox twice.
 
Lala said:
I don’t deride the French so aim better maybe.

I don’t understand those who constantly deride their own country though, that being the U.K. in this instance.
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I imagine the ‘deriders’ are disappointed with those in governance rather than the country itself.
 
Foolweary said:
That would be about 15% of the UK total tax income for a year, maybe he means million not billion?
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You would only get a fraction of a single nuclear sub for £110m. It will be billion, but it will probably be a 15 or 20 year programme
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well they do seem to get a bit muddled sometimes I agree.

I recall there was a thread recently (can’t recall who the op was) which tried to infer the U.K.’s defence spend far outstripped the money spent by the EU members. When that was shown to be nonsense he insisted he’d meant the U.K. only outspent 24 of the smaller members. When that was also shown to be untrue he got all narky and quite rude.

I do wish I could remember who the poster was. Whoever it might be I’m sure he couldn’t make the same mistake and post bollox twice.
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I can't remember either and definitely wouldn't link it or anything...

EU Army

It seems strange that Manny Macron wants the UK to join his little army project whilst going out of his way to bar us from everything else the bloc is involved in. It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that our armed forces are among the best in the world and the rest of Europe doesn’t...
avftt.co.uk
 
It's clearly not a big issue for France. I see Macron recalled the French ambassadors from USA and Australia today.

He'll be threatening retaliation next and sending his old petrol submarines to punish the Aussies 😆
 
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gjr69 said:
Can we not build anything more useful with our international partners than nuclear subs?
If we can't and this is the pinnacle of human achievement at least it employs people in the North of England.
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AUKUS the new trilateral partnership between Australia, the US and the UK is aimed at deepening cooperation across the security, defence, science, technology, industrial, and supply chain fields. The first major announcement was a commitment to help Australia develop a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines.
 
tommytwojags said:
AUKUS the new trilateral partnership between Australia, the US and the UK is aimed at deepening cooperation across the security, defence, science, technology, industrial, and supply chain fields. The first major announcement was a commitment to help Australia develop a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines.
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Not a great opening then but who knows maybe it will get better.
 
gjr69 said:
Can we not build anything more useful with our international partners than nuclear subs?
If we can't and this is the pinnacle of human achievement at least it employs people in the North of England.
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Except it doesn't. Adelaide isn't in the North of England.
 
gjr69 said:
So if we have no involvement in it I have no interest, people said Barrow was involved, if not so what!
Personally I would prefer it if we could find better things to build than nuclear submarines.
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We don’t know who will thrive economically because of this yet. It’s supposition on both sides.
Either way it’s a deal and association that can’t do the U.K. any harm, even if the financial gains don’t have an initial or long term impact on the U.K.

Security is a massive concern internationally and it can’t harm us to be part of a multi national collaboration.
 
Looks like Macron has thrown his toys out of the pram. He has withdrawn the ambassadors to Australia and the US for consultations. I wonder if they will wear yellow vests and protest outside the US embassy?
 
Lala said:
We don’t know who will thrive economically because of this yet. It’s supposition on both sides.
Either way it’s a deal and association that can’t do the U.K. any harm, even if the financial gains don’t have an initial or long term impact on the U.K.

Security is a massive concern internationally and it can’t harm us to be part of a multi national collaboration.
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The security side is supposition to an extent, UK and Australia will be junior partners in this to the USA and America doesn't appear to be the most stable country even under Biden. Who knows an even older and more erratic Trump could be in control again in a few years.
I'd prefer if we went about our business a bit more quietly like most of the western democracies that don't have direct association to nuclear weapons.
 
Lala said:
Security is a massive concern internationally and it can’t harm us to be part of a multi national collaboration.
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I broadly agree with that but it’s not the full picture.

AUKUS (like the Quad) is designed with China in mind. That’s no bad thing as the suppression of democracy in HK and the oppression of Muslims inside China, have both shown how nasty the regime is. And it has designs in the South China Sea and on Taiwan which also need to be discouraged. So that’s all good. But it’s worth remembering that when we’ve slavishly followed US policy in the past it hasn’t always ended well (Iraq and Afghanistan). That said it’s not really feasible for us to have a foreign policy that’s completely independent of all other countries, and politically of course Europe isn’t a serious option, so we don’t have too many other choices.

So that’s the Far East but obviously there’s also Russia to consider. Now I enjoy a bit of French baiting as much as the next person, and agree Macron has overreacted and is behaving like a bit of a tit, but I’m not sure it’s that clever to deliberately piss off one of our closest neighbours and an ally against Russian belligerence. That’ll be why Ben Wallace has been sounding a conciliatory note, although that appears to be falling on deaf ears at the moment. Time for the new Foreign Secretary Liz Truss to step up and try to calm things down I’d have thought.
 
Lala said:
We don’t know who will thrive economically because of this yet. It’s supposition on both sides.
Either way it’s a deal and association that can’t do the U.K. any harm, even if the financial gains don’t have an initial or long term impact on the U.K.

Security is a massive concern internationally and it can’t harm us to be part of a multi national collaboration.
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What like a common EU defence policy? Tongueincheeksmileything.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I broadly agree with that but it’s not the full picture.

AUKUS (like the Quad) is designed with China in mind. That’s no bad thing as the suppression of democracy in HK and the oppression of Muslims inside China, have both shown how nasty the regime is. And it has designs in the South China Sea and on Taiwan which also need to be discouraged. So that’s all good. But it’s worth remembering that when we’ve slavishly followed US policy in the past it hasn’t always ended well (Iraq and Afghanistan). That said it’s not really feasible for us to have a foreign policy that’s completely independent of all other countries, and politically of course Europe isn’t a serious option, so we don’t have too many other choices.

So that’s the Far East but obviously there’s also Russia to consider. Now I enjoy a bit of French baiting as much as the next person, and agree Macron has overreacted and is behaving like a bit of a tit, but I’m not sure it’s that clever to deliberately piss off one of our closest neighbours and an ally against Russian belligerence. That’ll be why Ben Wallace has been sounding a conciliatory note, although that appears to be falling on deaf ears at the moment. Time for the new Foreign Secretary Liz Truss to step up and try to calm things down I’d have thought.
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That last bit was satire I assume. Smiles
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I broadly agree with that but it’s not the full picture.

AUKUS (like the Quad) is designed with China in mind. That’s no bad thing as the suppression of democracy in HK and the oppression of Muslims inside China, have both shown how nasty the regime is. And it has designs in the South China Sea and on Taiwan which also need to be discouraged. So that’s all good. But it’s worth remembering that when we’ve slavishly followed US policy in the past it hasn’t always ended well (Iraq and Afghanistan). That said it’s not really feasible for us to have a foreign policy that’s completely independent of all other countries, and politically of course Europe isn’t a serious option, so we don’t have too many other choices.

So that’s the Far East but obviously there’s also Russia to consider. Now I enjoy a bit of French baiting as much as the next person, and agree Macron has overreacted and is behaving like a bit of a tit, but I’m not sure it’s that clever to deliberately piss off one of our closest neighbours and an ally against Russian belligerence. That’ll be why Ben Wallace has been sounding a conciliatory note, although that appears to be falling on deaf ears at the moment. Time for the new Foreign Secretary Liz Truss to step up and try to calm things down I’d have thought.
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I meant security in general, although I’m aware in this instance it’s all about China.

Unfortunately who and what we might actually need to defend ourselves against is anyone’s guess. It’s all very 1984 😩
 
tommytwojags said:
It's clearly not a big issue for France. I see Macron recalled the French ambassadors from USA and Australia today.

He'll be threatening retaliation next and sending his old petrol submarines to punish the Aussies 😆
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Shell fish next no doubt. 🦐🦀🦞😂
 
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Lytham_fy8 said:
What a weird thread.

The OP is designed to sow division and negativity and then you lot feed on it like crap vampires.
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Have you seen “What we do in the shadows” in the TV version there is an “energy vampire” Colin Robinson, who literally does this. Now I’m terrified AVFTT is a sham and is actually ran by a cabal of energy vampires praying on innocent Blackpool fans.

You all now look like this to me:

1631950965517.jpeg
 
All we can hope is that we NEVER need to use them.
Although with China getting very 'twitchy' it might happen.
 
Newholland said:
Internet feeds being trawled with a frenzied paranoias .... the anti Boris warriors will rise to the challenge... tin hat time Tangojoe 😁
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You were spot on NH. I leave the site for a day and AVFTT's resident condescending, supercilious sneerer desperately tries but miserably fails to find fault with the UK's deal so predictably criticises something posted on a completely different subject weeks ago. But he was wrong then and is wrong now. Seems like the only remotely valid criticism on this thread is that the nuclear submarines are to be built in Adelaide using UK and US technology. Obviously missed the bit about AUKUS being the "start of deepening cooperation across the security, defence, science, technology, industrial, and supply chain fields." Clearly this is just another piece in the jigsaw which will expand the UK's global influence and finally shake off the shackles of the collapsing, defenceless, incompetent, squabbling, antediluvian EU.

For anyone who underestimates the immensity of what has happened and the unprecedented blow that this event has had on France, just read the French press, listen to the reaction of the French ministers, witness the unscheduled emergency meeting of its cabinet and the recall by France of its ambassadors in the US and Australia. This is the biggest humiliation France has suffered since the German occupation. To lose €60bn on a cancelled military contract is huge in itself, but to lose it because your cutting edge technology is deemed to be primitive compared to that of your neighbours and competitors the UK is hugely demeaning for France.

But still there are some on here who will never accept the UK's achievements. I'm not sure what pleasures can be derived from this country's failures, or by regarding successes as failures, but carry on if it makes you happy.
 
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Tangojoe said:
You were spot on NH. I leave the site for a day and AVFTT's resident condescending, supercilious sneerer desperately tries but miserably fails to find fault with the UK's deal so predictably criticises something posted on a completely different subject weeks ago. But he was wrong then and is wrong now. Seems like the only remotely valid criticism on this thread is that the nuclear submarines are to be built in Adelaide using UK and US technology. Obviously missed the bit about AUKUS being the "start of deepening cooperation across the security, defence, science, technology, industrial, and supply chain fields." Clearly this is just another piece in the jigsaw which will expand the UK's global influence and finally shake off the shackles of the collapsing, defenceless, incompetent, squabbling, antediluvian EU.

For anyone who underestimates the immensity of what has happened and the unprecedented blow that this event has had on France, just read the French press, listen to the reaction of the French ministers, witness the unscheduled meeting of its cabinet and the recall by France of its ambassadors in the US and Australia. This is the biggest humiliation France has suffered since the German occupation. To lose €60bn on a cancelled military contract is huge in itself, but to lose it because your cutting edge technology is deemed to be primitive compared to that of your neighbours the UK is hugely demeaning for France.

But still there are some on here who will never accept the UK's achievements. I'm not sure what pleasures can be derived from this country's failures, but carry on if it makes you happy.
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Except it's the US who are sharing the tech.
 
Well annoying the French is one of the few things Macron is really good at according to his latest popularity rating. Next year he will be signing on after the French General Election. Adieu enfant terrible😜
 
It sounds a good plan and no wonder NOBODY now trust the Americans anymore with "what day is it? where am I? please help Jill" supposed to be in charge.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
The reality is that the US and Australia could have sorted this between themselves. The U.K. wasn’t really needed.

But all credit to Boris for leveraging the “British Contribution”. Whether that translates into contracts and jobs in the U.K. has yet to be seen.
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It should have been the US and Australia alone. We are strategically, as well as geographically, European. France is an important ally. Also, I don't see why we should be used as a token international partner in a theatre that does not involve us. The last think I want is to get into a direct military spat with China over Taiwan.
 
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