Compared to Ireland

catinstalbans

Well-known member
Apparently Germany are too organised and successful a nation to compare ourselves to, after all who would have thought when Matt Hancock stood up in Parliament on 11 February and said that the UK and the NHS was well prepared that we might need to carry out a few tests to see who has got the virus, or that nurses and doctors might need PPE.
So if Germany is too good to compare ourselves to, then perhaps our closest neighbour Ireland might be a more realistic comparison.
We started with almost the same number of CCU beds, similarly underfunded health systems and a culturally and historically linked population.
While the UK has had just under 10,000 deaths the Irish have had less than 400. Of course the population of the UK is so much greater so let's look at deaths per 100,000 people
UK 14.81
Ireland 6.5
Why the difference?
Ireland locked down much earlier, no St Patrick's day celebrations in the pubs, schools were closed, and lockdown effectively began on March 13.
Meanwhile Cheltenham went ahead, Boris had (officially) no plans to close
schools, pubs and restaurants or to ban major sporting events.
According to figures this one week delay can lead to 18 less deaths per asymptomatic infected person carrying the infection around in the open for that extra week. That's 18 parents, grandparents, husbands, wives and in rare cases children lost unnecessarily due to complacency and negligence.
Also compared to Ireland, the UK has tested 4 tests per 1000, Ireland 8.7.
This means that while everyone recognises that the UK is under reporting covid 19 deaths, in comparison this under reporting will be less in Ireland simply because they have carried out more tests.
So with the time lag of this virus someone infected at Cheltenham who went on to have major problems would have been in hospital this week. The people they went on to infect will be dying over the next two weeks. Lives lost because of an ideology that puts money before people, and a national tragedy that could and should have been avoidable.
 
Post removed. You have made your point.

But he's not answered a perfectly legitimate question.
 
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Fair comment. Ireland had the same advantages as the UK in being an island. And a health system which is heavily criticised by its own population. And as a small country, far less clout when it comes to obtaining PPE or ventilators. But something, whether an earlier lockdown or a greater commitment to testing and contact tracing, has left them in a better position to date. That may change, but it may well not.
 
Spain went on lockdown long before the uk but their numbers are a lot worse .comparisons don,t always work.
UK Pop.67m cases 79,000 deaths 9875
Spain Pop 47m cases 166,000 deaths 16,972
 
being selective who you blame if the government have taken the advice, and implemented it,from scientists and medical experts,then who is to blame
 
I read a similar article. We are, arguably, heading for the most deaths in Europe. Those will be the stats I suspect when this is all over. When is the right to ask why? Genuine question btw.

It's right to ask why right now. It just isn't useful or helpful to link it to political party ideology, or Brexit, or anything else like that.
Particularly important question is what are we going to do to prepare better for if it happens again.
 
It's right to ask why right now. It just isn't useful or helpful to link it to political party ideology, or Brexit, or anything else like that.
Particularly important question is what are we going to do to prepare better for if it happens again.
[/QUO Every stone is turned over in a public enquiry and you cannot ringfence any area otherwise what's the point? Everything gets examined - everything!
 
I think its a fair point & most sensible people (me 😅 ) think we should have acted sooner.

If China had been more open & reported cases of human to human transmission sooner or learned better lessons from sars or avian flu i highly doubt the world would be in this mess!

That is just as sensible a point as the one Cat makes btw.
Maybe more so?

Doctors were stopped from speaking out.

This blame game is really easy aint it!
Cat seems to think China is great though? 🤪
 
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Apparently Germany are too organised and successful a nation to compare ourselves to, after all who would have thought when Matt Hancock stood up in Parliament on 11 February and said that the UK and the NHS was well prepared that we might need to carry out a few tests to see who has got the virus, or that nurses and doctors might need PPE.
So if Germany is too good to compare ourselves to, then perhaps our closest neighbour Ireland might be a more realistic comparison.
We started with almost the same number of CCU beds, similarly underfunded health systems and a culturally and historically linked population.
While the UK has had just under 10,000 deaths the Irish have had less than 400. Of course the population of the UK is so much greater so let's look at deaths per 100,000 people
UK 14.81
Ireland 6.5
Why the difference?
Ireland locked down much earlier, no St Patrick's day celebrations in the pubs, schools were closed, and lockdown effectively began on March 13.
Meanwhile Cheltenham went ahead, Boris had (officially) no plans to close
schools, pubs and restaurants or to ban major sporting events.
According to figures this one week delay can lead to 18 less deaths per asymptomatic infected person carrying the infection around in the open for that extra week. That's 18 parents, grandparents, husbands, wives and in rare cases children lost unnecessarily due to complacency and negligence.
Also compared to Ireland, the UK has tested 4 tests per 1000, Ireland 8.7.
This means that while everyone recognises that the UK is under reporting covid 19 deaths, in comparison this under reporting will be less in Ireland simply because they have carried out more tests.
So with the time lag of this virus someone infected at Cheltenham who went on to have major problems would have been in hospital this week. The people they went on to infect will be dying over the next two weeks. Lives lost because of an ideology that puts money before people, and a national tragedy that could and should have been avoidable.

Cat,

Slightly off subject. But a question worth asking.

What’s your view regarding the comments made by two local councillors?

The first said, Boris deserved to get coronavirus.

The second said, Boris didn’t have the virus and it was just a publicity stunt.
 
Spain went on lockdown long before the uk but their numbers are a lot worse .comparisons don,t always work.
UK Pop.67m cases 79,000 deaths 9875
Spain Pop 47m cases 166,000 deaths 16,972

Unfortunately this is a poor comparison at the moment as Spain seem to be thankfully past their peak while we seem to be still climbing 😥😥
 
heard one of the experts saying it would make no difference,doesn't make sense to me but i'm no boffin
 
I don't know how the Tories not only delayed everything to increase the deaths and made it a racist virus too?
Impressive work.....
 
I'm not really sure 'comparing' any Countries based on the raw statistics alone is pareticularly useful to be honest.
 
We are about to repatriate 3000 brits from India. Will they be tested, go into quarantine, be sent to a secure hospital?
 

Tangivese,
Yes but a public enquiry occurs after the event, when all the facts are laid bare. All we have now are opinions and projections, and we are talking about what questions we should be asking right now.
Plus, the everything that gets examined in a public enquiry is specifically related to the outbreak and our response. The question on whether we were ill prepared will also be asked, and that is where the politics will likely come in. However, as I've said before, both left wing and right wing governments have been affected by this, and all have acted in varying ways, with varying degrees of success. What we should be doing instead of saying a left wing government would've done better, is to say that country did it better regardless of whether it had a socialist or conservative government, let's look at how they did it.

I've also said that one of the main criticisms of the Tories is the underfunding of the NHS. That may or may not be the case, I'm no expert on that. But I what I would suggest is that were the NHS irrefutably the best funded healthcare system in the world, I'd wager we would still have been short of PPE. Because why waste money on stuff that isn't needed when we could pay our nurses better, right?
 
Cat do you really think Corbyn and Abbott would have fared any better?? Look at the latest opinion polls and see what the public think. Now is the not the time for your uneducated, cheap political point scoring. The Govt deserve criticism and scrutiny but not the biased way in which you do it. You are the closest thing on here to a zealot and need to take a long hard look at yourself.
If there were a poll on AVFTT for least liked poster you would absolutely piss in (even Allez would lose to you). That is not good for a so called teacher. I have still never seen one post from you regarding Blackpool FC.
 
Cat do you really think Corbyn and Abbott would have fared any better?? Look at the latest opinion polls and see what the public think. Now is the not the time for your uneducated, cheap political point scoring. The Govt deserve criticism and scrutiny but not the biased way in which you do it. You are the closest thing on here to a zealot and need to take a long hard look at yourself.
If there were a poll on AVFTT for least liked poster you would absolutely piss in (even Allez would lose to you). That is not good for a so called teacher. I have still never seen one post from you regarding Blackpool FC.
Irrelevant.
 
Cat do you really think Corbyn and Abbott would have fared any better?? Look at the latest opinion polls and see what the public think. Now is the not the time for your uneducated, cheap political point scoring. The Govt deserve criticism and scrutiny but not the biased way in which you do it. You are the closest thing on here to a zealot and need to take a long hard look at yourself.
If there were a poll on AVFTT for least liked poster you would absolutely piss in (even Allez would lose to you). That is not good for a so called teacher. I have still never seen one post from you regarding Blackpool FC.
Cat has raised points worth discussing. It is also reasonable to point out that the electorate massively rejected Corbynite Labour so it's pointless using their unknown performance as a barometer. The electorate swung behind Johnson's Tories so it is them who we have to hold to account.
 
I will answer that question and say yes I think Labour would have handled it better.

They would have have enforced lockdown sooner as it was obvious it was coming to us and I doubt Corbyn would be laughing about Covid-19 and making a joke of him shaking hands in a hospital.

I’m confident they would have had appropriate PPE for NHS frontline staff as well by this stage of the pandemic to reduce NHS staff dying for simply doing their jobs which is deeply sad (and Hancock claims its 19 when as of yesterday it was 28!).

Of course there would still have been deaths under a labour government but would it have been handled better in my opinion, a big fat yes, sadly we will never know.
 
Cat do you really think Corbyn and Abbott would have fared any better?? Look at the latest opinion polls and see what the public think. Now is the not the time for your uneducated, cheap political point scoring. The Govt deserve criticism and scrutiny but not the biased way in which you do it. You are the closest thing on here to a zealot and need to take a long hard look at yourself.
If there were a poll on AVFTT for least liked poster you would absolutely piss in (even Allez would lose to you). That is not good for a so called teacher. I have still never seen one post from you regarding Blackpool FC.
Is there some irony on Easter Day asking what JC would have done?😂
 
Well at least CatinStalingrad has finally stopped comparing our publicly funded NHS with Germany's privately funded scheme!🤡
 
Tangivese,
Yes but a public enquiry occurs after the event, when all the facts are laid bare. All we have now are opinions and projections, and we are talking about what questions we should be asking right now.
Plus, the everything that gets examined in a public enquiry is specifically related to the outbreak and our response. The question on whether we were ill prepared will also be asked, and that is where the politics will likely come in. However, as I've said before, both left wing and right wing governments have been affected by this, and all have acted in varying ways, with varying degrees of success. What we should be doing instead of saying a left wing government would've done better, is to say that country did it better regardless of whether it had a socialist or conservative government, let's look at how they did it.

I've also said that one of the main criticisms of the Tories is the underfunding of the NHS. That may or may not be the case, I'm no expert on that. But I what I would suggest is that were the NHS irrefutably the best funded healthcare system in the world, I'd wager we would still have been short of PPE. Because why waste money on stuff that isn't needed when we could pay our nurses better, right?
I agree with most of your points - Germany is performing well against the virus and that country is led by a centre-right Government.
However, your point about being caught short of PPE, even if the NHS were properly funded is not a fair one. Yes we would have been lacking but we would not have been caught out having to catch up in resourcing other key areas - staff, buildings & equipments. We would have achieved our NHS resourcing goals much quicker.
 
Tangivese,
Yes but a public enquiry occurs after the event, when all the facts are laid bare. All we have now are opinions and projections, and we are talking about what questions we should be asking right now.
Plus, the everything that gets examined in a public enquiry is specifically related to the outbreak and our response. The question on whether we were ill prepared will also be asked, and that is where the politics will likely come in. However, as I've said before, both left wing and right wing governments have been affected by this, and all have acted in varying ways, with varying degrees of success. What we should be doing instead of saying a left wing government would've done better, is to say that country did it better regardless of whether it had a socialist or conservative government, let's look at how they did it.

I've also said that one of the main criticisms of the Tories is the underfunding of the NHS. That may or may not be the case, I'm no expert on that. But I what I would suggest is that were the NHS irrefutably the best funded healthcare system in the world, I'd wager we would still have been short of PPE. Because why waste money on stuff that isn't needed when we could pay our nurses better, right?
He won't understand.
He doesn't want to understand.
 
It's definitely not useful if it highlights one's weaknesses. Smiles.
I'm not sure it highlights much without much more information to be honest. Germany is a bit of an outlier in Europe, but generally speaking many of the major nations are following a fairly consistent pattern...We're unsure where the UK is going to go in that respect. It's also unclear exactly what is or isn;t happening in Sweden, who have been far more lax than the UK.

There are just so many factors that might have an impact on the spread, it's really not possible (despite those wanting to make politcal capital champing at the bit) to draw any credible conclusions at this stage.
 
Well at least CatinStalingrad has finally stopped comparing our publicly funded NHS with Germany's privately funded scheme!🤡
Health insurance is mandatory for all citizens and permanent residents of Germany. It is provided by two systems, namely: 1) competing, not-for-profit, nongovernmental health insurance funds (“sickness funds”—there were 118 as of January 20161) in the statutory health insurance (SHI) system; and 2) substitutive private health insurance (PHI). States own most university hospitals, while municipalities play a role in public health activities and own about half of all hospital beds. However, the various levels of government have virtually no role in the direct financing or delivery of health care. To a large degree, regulation is delegated to self-governing associations within sickness funds and provider associations, which are together represented by the most important body, the Federal Joint Committee.

So compulsory sign up in lieu of NI contributions. Not really in the hands of the private sector.
 
Tangivese,
Yes but a public enquiry occurs after the event, when all the facts are laid bare. All we have now are opinions and projections, and we are talking about what questions we should be asking right now.
Plus, the everything that gets examined in a public enquiry is specifically related to the outbreak and our response. The question on whether we were ill prepared will also be asked, and that is where the politics will likely come in. However, as I've said before, both left wing and right wing governments have been affected by this, and all have acted in varying ways, with varying degrees of success. What we should be doing instead of saying a left wing government would've done better, is to say that country did it better regardless of whether it had a socialist or conservative government, let's look at how they did it.

I've also said that one of the main criticisms of the Tories is the underfunding of the NHS. That may or may not be the case, I'm no expert on that. But I what I would suggest is that were the NHS irrefutably the best funded healthcare system in the world, I'd wager we would still have been short of PPE. Because why waste money on stuff that isn't needed when we could pay our nurses better, right?
I'm very famil;iar with the timescales and scope and scale of a public enquiry. I agree with you on looking how they did it regardless of plotical creed but just pointing out no one can cherry pick what the enquiry will look at - no ringfencing here!!!
 
Health insurance is mandatory for all citizens and permanent residents of Germany. It is provided by two systems, namely: 1) competing, not-for-profit, nongovernmental health insurance funds (“sickness funds”—there were 118 as of January 20161) in the statutory health insurance (SHI) system; and 2) substitutive private health insurance (PHI). States own most university hospitals, while municipalities play a role in public health activities and own about half of all hospital beds. However, the various levels of government have virtually no role in the direct financing or delivery of health care. To a large degree, regulation is delegated to self-governing associations within sickness funds and provider associations, which are together represented by the most important body, the Federal Joint Committee.

So compulsory sign up in lieu of NI contributions. Not really in the hands of the private sector.
Thanks for that! 👍🏻
I know.

I've been telling CatinStalingrad all week and reminding him a Health service funded by private insurance is exactly what he and his momentum mates were telling scare stories about during the election! 😂
 
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Thanks for that! 👍🏻
I know.

I've been telling CatinStalingrad all week and reminding him a Health service funded by private insurance is exactly what he and his momentum mates were telling scare stories about during the election! 😂
We pay for it just the same through tax and NI. If I didn't pay those and had compulsory insurance to buy instead what's the difference? It's hardly the US model is it.

No one was made bankrupt through medical bills in Europe. USA over 100,000 per year.
 
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I agree with most of your points - Germany is performing well against the virus and that country is led by a centre-right Government.
However, your point about being caught short of PPE, even if the NHS were properly funded is not a fair one. Yes we would have been lacking but we would not have been caught out having to catch up in resourcing other key areas - staff, buildings & equipments. We would have achieved our NHS resourcing goals much quicker.

I don't necessarily disagree with you generally about funding, my point was specifically about PPE rather than buildings and staff. Though Hancock just said that the PPE stock is there, and it's the logistics of getting it to where it's needed that's proved difficult, so what do I know. Thats if you believe him of course!
 
Health insurance is mandatory for all citizens and permanent residents of Germany. It is provided by two systems, namely: 1) competing, not-for-profit, nongovernmental health insurance funds (“sickness funds”—there were 118 as of January 20161) in the statutory health insurance (SHI) system; and 2) substitutive private health insurance (PHI). States own most university hospitals, while municipalities play a role in public health activities and own about half of all hospital beds. However, the various levels of government have virtually no role in the direct financing or delivery of health care. To a large degree, regulation is delegated to self-governing associations within sickness funds and provider associations, which are together represented by the most important body, the Federal Joint Committee.

So compulsory sign up in lieu of NI contributions. Not really in the hands of the private sector.
Also, the level of 'social insurance' contributions taken from wages at source in Germany, would have some of our Tory press demanding blood.
 
Whilst i think Ireland is worth looking at I think the major European Cities/Countries on a whole will fair worse.
This is why Madrid, Paris & London are so badly affected,
 
Also, the level of 'social insurance' contributions taken from wages at source in Germany, would have some of our Tory press demanding blood.
Wiz I know that!
Tell the OP and anybody else on here who has been comparing us to Germany, after telling us that Boris was going to sell off the NHS during the election.

I'm not suggesting you are guilty of that btw, but the certainly OP is.
 
Also, the level of 'social insurance' contributions taken from wages at source in Germany, would have some of our Tory press demanding blood.
Wiz I know that!
Tell the OP and anybody else on here who has been comparing us to Germany, after telling us that Boris was going to sell off the NHS during the election.

I'm not suggesting you are guilty of that btw, but the certainly OP is.
 
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