Compared to Ireland

Spiegel ran an article questioning if the British Government would have been stronger and reacted better if Boris had assembled his cabinet based on a politicians ability rather than if they supported him on Brexit.
 
Wizaard said:
We pay for it just the same through tax and NI. If I didn't pay those and had compulsory insurance to buy instead what's the difference? It's hardly the US model is it.

No one was made bankrupt through medical bills in Europe. USA over 100,000 per year.
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What's the difference between funding by taxes and private insurance?! !

Massive if you have poor health!

Wow!
So you ARE advocating private insurance for health care? 🤔

Hmmm I don't remember you or any other Corbyn supporter on here saying that you thought that we should be switching to the German system during the election.
 
half of Ireland were at cheltenham so they have got it to come,i thought at the time attending cheltenham was a poor decision,and holidays abroad,sorry wiz mate 😇
 
catinstalbans said:
Apparently Germany are too organised and successful a nation to compare ourselves to, after all who would have thought when Matt Hancock stood up in Parliament on 11 February and said that the UK and the NHS was well prepared that we might need to carry out a few tests to see who has got the virus, or that nurses and doctors might need PPE.
So if Germany is too good to compare ourselves to, then perhaps our closest neighbour Ireland might be a more realistic comparison.
We started with almost the same number of CCU beds, similarly underfunded health systems and a culturally and historically linked population.
While the UK has had just under 10,000 deaths the Irish have had less than 400. Of course the population of the UK is so much greater so let's look at deaths per 100,000 people
UK 14.81
Ireland 6.5
Why the difference?
Ireland locked down much earlier, no St Patrick's day celebrations in the pubs, schools were closed, and lockdown effectively began on March 13.
Meanwhile Cheltenham went ahead, Boris had (officially) no plans to close
schools, pubs and restaurants or to ban major sporting events.
According to figures this one week delay can lead to 18 less deaths per asymptomatic infected person carrying the infection around in the open for that extra week. That's 18 parents, grandparents, husbands, wives and in rare cases children lost unnecessarily due to complacency and negligence.
Also compared to Ireland, the UK has tested 4 tests per 1000, Ireland 8.7.
This means that while everyone recognises that the UK is under reporting covid 19 deaths, in comparison this under reporting will be less in Ireland simply because they have carried out more tests.
So with the time lag of this virus someone infected at Cheltenham who went on to have major problems would have been in hospital this week. The people they went on to infect will be dying over the next two weeks. Lives lost because of an ideology that puts money before people, and a national tragedy that could and should have been avoidable.
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Cat

It's a good job that no Irish people attend the Cheltenham Festival.
 
It's hilarious how the OP keeps throwing bombs (always the same political propaganda) and then disappearing while you lot scramble around like crazies arguing and abusing each other. He must be laughing his head off. 😂 He doesn't want to debate, he's just playing you like a fiddle.
 
tommytwojags said:
It's hilarious how the OP keeps throwing bombs (always the same political propaganda) and then disappearing while you lot scramble around like crazies arguing and abusing each other. He must be laughing his head off. 😂 He doesn't want to debate, he's just playing you like a fiddle.
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But this is not something the op has literally made up. They've got this from the data ( flawed or not) that is out there. I am beginning to wonder whether some are clinging to a sense of British exceptionalism.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'm not sure it highlights much without much more information to be honest. Germany is a bit of an outlier in Europe, but generally speaking many of the major nations are following a fairly consistent pattern...We're unsure where the UK is going to go in that respect. It's also unclear exactly what is or isn;t happening in Sweden, who have been far more lax than the UK.

There are just so many factors that might have an impact on the spread, it's really not possible (despite those wanting to make politcal capital champing at the bit) to draw any credible conclusions at this stage.
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A sensible post... best on the thread👍
 
The way Labour is attempting to politicize the pandemic is the reason why we are not in power today.
Starmer has a chance to reshape the party and show himself to be a statesman something that Corbyn never achieved.
 
Ireland v UK figures could be related to population density. It's much easier to spread the virus when people are closer together. I noticed that the figures comparing Ireland v England are even worse when the more sparsely populated Scotland, Wales and NI are removed from the stats. This comment is not an endorsement of the way the UK government have handled the situation. Just pointing out that comparisons have many confounders to consider.
 
Loco said:
Ireland v UK figures could be related to population density. It's much easier to spread the virus when people are closer together. I noticed that the figures comparing Ireland v England are even worse when the more sparsely populated Scotland, Wales and NI are removed from the stats. This comment is not an endorsement of the way the UK government have handled the situation. Just pointing out that comparisons have many confounders to consider.
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Likewise in the UK multi generational households are more common, perhaps why Spain and Italy where grandparents rarely go into care homes but tend to live with their children and grandchildren have seen the biggest loss of life.
The BBC did a report about a week ago about families living in this country and highlighted one particular instance of a guy who said that living in a house with thirteen family members, isolating was a real problem.
 
Population density, location of early cases, ages of early cases, racial & genetic balance of population, availability of testing and testing capability, cultural differences could all play a part in how the disease affects one country compared to another.
 
Hong Kong appears to be getting things right up until yesterday just 1,000 positive cases with 4 deaths and the pubs and clubs not closed until a week ago, and the border with China not closed until 25th March.
 
deary said:
I think its a fair point & most sensible people (me 😅 ) think we should have acted sooner.

If China had been more open & reported cases of human to human transmission sooner or learned better lessons from sars or avian flu i highly doubt the world would be in this mess!

That is just as sensible a point as the one Cat makes btw.
Maybe more so?

Doctors were stopped from speaking out.

This blame game is really easy aint it!
Cat seems to think China is great though? 🤪
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We can't control what other countries do or don't do. We can control our own societal response.

Thus it's the latter we should question first.

Why and how it started and what China's role was is less urgent than understanding what WE can do better because that's the pragmatic truth.

Blaming China maybe accurate and cathartic but it doesn't prepare us any better for another wave or a future pandemic of a different kind.

The international community needs to question China as everyone is affected and China is massive and powerful - we are part of that. As an individual nation, we can't even dream of pressuring China on our own but we can deal with the here and now and our response.

That's how I'd look at it if I weren't posting on an obscure football forum and actually had a say.
 
td53 said:
We can't control what other countries do or don't do. We can control our own societal response.


The international community needs to question China as everyone is affected and China is massive and powerful - we are part of that. As an individual nation, we can't even dream of pressuring China on our own but we can deal with the here and now and our response.
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👍 Very true but going on about us being too late closing schools or whatever also isnt helping us NOW!
I thought we were slow but Its done so accept it & move forward to where we are now.
At the moment bleating about anything in the past is rather pointless tbh.

There will be an enquiry.

Im just making the point that if someone wants to do it about the UKs 'response' why not do it about China who are ultimately responsible?

But that doesnt fit with in with certain posters 'political agenda'.

In fairness you do have to take the hat off to Cat he does manage some good knocks 👍 😂
 
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catinstalbans said:
Apparently Germany are too organised and successful a nation to compare ourselves to, after all who would have thought when Matt Hancock stood up in Parliament on 11 February and said that the UK and the NHS was well prepared that we might need to carry out a few tests to see who has got the virus, or that nurses and doctors might need PPE.
So if Germany is too good to compare ourselves to, then perhaps our closest neighbour Ireland might be a more realistic comparison.
We started with almost the same number of CCU beds, similarly underfunded health systems and a culturally and historically linked population.
While the UK has had just under 10,000 deaths the Irish have had less than 400. Of course the population of the UK is so much greater so let's look at deaths per 100,000 people
UK 14.81
Ireland 6.5
Why the difference?
Ireland locked down much earlier, no St Patrick's day celebrations in the pubs, schools were closed, and lockdown effectively began on March 13.
Meanwhile Cheltenham went ahead, Boris had (officially) no plans to close
schools, pubs and restaurants or to ban major sporting events.
According to figures this one week delay can lead to 18 less deaths per asymptomatic infected person carrying the infection around in the open for that extra week. That's 18 parents, grandparents, husbands, wives and in rare cases children lost unnecessarily due to complacency and negligence.
Also compared to Ireland, the UK has tested 4 tests per 1000, Ireland 8.7.
This means that while everyone recognises that the UK is under reporting covid 19 deaths, in comparison this under reporting will be less in Ireland simply because they have carried out more tests.
So with the time lag of this virus someone infected at Cheltenham who went on to have major problems would have been in hospital this week. The people they went on to infect will be dying over the next two weeks. Lives lost because of an ideology that puts money before people, and a national tragedy that could and should have been avoidable.
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Deleted - offensive content
Factual and if thats offensive God help us..
 
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deary said:
👍 Very true but going on about us being too late closing schools or whatever also isnt helping us NOW!
I thought we were slow but Its done so accept it & move forward to where we are now.
At the moment bleating about anything in the past is rather pointless tbh.

There will be an enquiry.

Im just making the point that if someone wants to do it about the UKs 'response' why not do it about China who are ultimately responsible?

But that doesnt fit with in with certain posters 'political agenda'.
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I agree to an extent, but equally wanting all politics to stop and expecting the opposition not to question and scrutinise will lower the standards of decision making. Enquiries take years and we're acting day by day. Opposition has a place to play in that.

I'm as tired of people saying 'stop point scoring' as I am of point scoring.

The purpose of parliament is to debate the policy the government put forward. The role of the opposition is the challenge and thus improve that policy.

That's as true today as it was 6 weeks ago. Even within a war cabinet, debate takes place before decisions are taken. You can't just suspend politics and hope for the best. MPs have a duty to argue the position they believe best served their constituents.

A good opposition will do this constructively and selectively. I would agree that not all posters are constructive or selective but I also think that's as true for 'boris is our GREATESR PM doing an AMAZING JOB' as it is of 'TORY SCUM KILL THOUSANDS'

There's lots of point scoring going on and it isn't just the OP.
 
td53 said:
I'm as tired of people saying 'stop point scoring' as I am of point scoring.

The purpose of parliament is to debate the policy the government put forward. The role of the opposition is the challenge and thus improve that policy.
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👍 I agree but if KS comes out slagging the government now he will be dead in the water imho.
He needs to say we are pulling together in these unprecedented times as a nation(Get everyone on board). Then gently question or offer assistance/help with some stuff like procurement & supply of PPE/testing/contact tracing & areas we perhaps could be doing more? This will gain him nationwide credibility imo.
Bitching that we were too late is not a road i think he should take.
When the 'dust settles' labour want to come out of this looking credible, There will be plenty of time for party politics then.
 
Completely agree with that, Deary. Starmer must support government efforts now, even if he holds some different opinions on aspects. Unless the government looks like making another colossal mistake like the “herd immunity” one. The inevitable Public Inquiry into lessons learned is the time for all opinions to be aired.
 
catinstalbans said:
Apparently Germany are too organised and successful a nation to compare ourselves to, after all who would have thought when Matt Hancock stood up in Parliament on 11 February and said that the UK and the NHS was well prepared that we might need to carry out a few tests to see who has got the virus, or that nurses and doctors might need PPE.
So if Germany is too good to compare ourselves to, then perhaps our closest neighbour Ireland might be a more realistic comparison.
We started with almost the same number of CCU beds, similarly underfunded health systems and a culturally and historically linked population.
While the UK has had just under 10,000 deaths the Irish have had less than 400. Of course the population of the UK is so much greater so let's look at deaths per 100,000 people
UK 14.81
Ireland 6.5
Why the difference?
Ireland locked down much earlier, no St Patrick's day celebrations in the pubs, schools were closed, and lockdown effectively began on March 13.
Meanwhile Cheltenham went ahead, Boris had (officially) no plans to close
schools, pubs and restaurants or to ban major sporting events.
According to figures this one week delay can lead to 18 less deaths per asymptomatic infected person carrying the infection around in the open for that extra week. That's 18 parents, grandparents, husbands, wives and in rare cases children lost unnecessarily due to complacency and negligence.
Also compared to Ireland, the UK has tested 4 tests per 1000, Ireland 8.7.
This means that while everyone recognises that the UK is under reporting covid 19 deaths, in comparison this under reporting will be less in Ireland simply because they have carried out more tests.
So with the time lag of this virus someone infected at Cheltenham who went on to have major problems would have been in hospital this week. The people they went on to infect will be dying over the next two weeks. Lives lost because of an ideology that puts money before people, and a national tragedy that could and should have been avoidable.
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Why dont you go and live somewhere else. You despise everything about our country and want to constantly undermine everything that our democratically elected government does. All you ever do is bitch and complain. Please just go and live in Russia or in fact anywhere.
 
Archibald Knox said:
Completely agree with that, Deary. Starmer must support government efforts now, even if he holds some different opinions on aspects. Unless the government looks like making another colossal mistake like the “herd immunity” one. The inevitable Public Inquiry into lessons learned is the time for all opinions to be aired.
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Not much point having public inquiries etc if people like the Home Secretary won't attend them,and Starmer is right to question and challenge things as this rolls along.
 
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The population density of the uk is 259 people per kilometer, Ireland 147.

You don't think this statistic has a bearing then, or do you just want to use the ones that back up your political agenda?
 
catinstalbans said:
Strange that wanting a nation which does everything it can to remove poverty, racism, injustice and work for the health of every person is considered to be hating the country.
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Wow, a rareity. Cat actually posts a reply on a thread he's started. Things are looking up.
Anyway in answer to your statement, in your case yes it is.
 
PR3BFC said:
I will answer that question and say yes I think Labour would have handled it better.

They would have have enforced lockdown sooner as it was obvious it was coming to us and I doubt Corbyn would be laughing about Covid-19 and making a joke of him shaking hands in a hospital.

I’m confident they would have had appropriate PPE for NHS frontline staff as well by this stage of the pandemic to reduce NHS staff dying for simply doing their jobs which is deeply sad (and Hancock claims its 19 when as of yesterday it was 28!).

Of course there would still have been deaths under a labour government but would it have been handled better in my opinion, a big fat yes, sadly we will never know.
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Absolutely no substance to say what you've said is true.

They wouldn't have gone into lockdown sooner. They wouldn't have appropriate PPE, what you're saying is the biggest load of ** bollocks I've ever read.
 
Plumbs said:
Not much point having public inquiries etc if people like the Home Secretary won't attend them,and Starmer is right to question and challenge things as this rolls along.
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Plumbs how can you say the home sec wont attend a public Inquiry in the future? I can see why tories wouldnt want her attending coz shes poor imo.
Starmer is entitled to question/challenge but he has to set the right tone. Thats why i think he should go down the road of offering help & assistance right now rather than trying to land political punches.
 
SeasideKurt said:
Absolutely no substance to say what you've said is true.

They wouldn't have gone into lockdown sooner. They wouldn't have appropriate PPE, what you're saying is the biggest load of ** bollocks I've ever read.
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Clearly a Tory in denial how bad they have handled this.

I notice you have nothing to say about Boris not taking it seriously like he was joking about shaking hands in an hospital etc.
 
Easier to compare the population of Southern Ireland with Finland. Comparing Eire with the UK is demographically and population based incorrect. Do your research better CAT 4/10.

Have the Tory party handled it well - made mistakes - definitely. Would Labour have done any better under Corbyn and Abbot - not a hope in hell.
 
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deary said:
Plumbs how can you say the home sec wont attend a public Inquiry in the future? I can see why tories wouldnt want her attending coz shes poor imo.
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She has been asked to attend the parliamentary committee which is obligatory and keeps coming up with excuses,where its also disrespectful to the democratic process.
 
Tangerinenick said:
Easier to compare the population of Southern Ireland with Finland. Comparing Eire with the UK is demographically and population based incorrect. Do your research better CAT 4/10.

Have the Tory party handled it well - made mistakes - definitely. Would Labour have done any better under Corbyn and Abbot - not a hope in hell.
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Well Dominic Cummings appears to have been the ‘mastermind’ behind the Government’s response at least in the early weeks and it was shit, better now though.

I am almost certain Corbyn and co would have done miles better given what was known. As would May, Cameron, Brown, Blair and pretty much any other UK government’s of the recent past IMO.
 
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Cat, have you considered for just one second that the good folk of Ireland are perhaps adhering to the self isolation advice just a tad more than us?

Regardless of the increase in the death toll I see pictures EVERYDAY of morons who totally ignore the advice.

Just what will it take.

Unfortunately your political bias won't let you see further than the end of your nose.
 
Plumbs said:
She has been asked to attend the parliamentary committee which is obligatory and keeps coming up with excuses,where its also disrespectful to the democratic process.
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Fair point but imho there is no way she will be able to dodge an independent public inquiry.

She should imo be potted from her cabinet role & fade rather quickly into the background.
 
glasshalffull said:
I am almost certain Corbyn and co would have done miles better given what was known. As would May, Cameron, Brown, Blair and pretty much any other UK government’s of the recent past IMO.
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And I could quote the opposite with every bit as much conviction as you write that. I wouldn't mean it because seriously, it means the square root of fcuk all. It's just political point scoring.
 
Well you are right 20’s that we can never know the alternative realities that never happened, but Just political point scoring?
I don’t really think so to be honest under the circumstances, but if it is so be it.
A lot of people are in denial at the moment about the complacency and inaction in those key early weeks, and it’s impact on what is happening now. Many are also seeking to close down debate about it.
The Sunday Times revealed a couple of weeks ago the influence that Dominic Cummings had on what happened or worse what didn’t happen then.
I sincerely hope that Boris is now able to reboot his government without this cynical individual.
 
glasshalffull said:
Well you are right 20’s that we can never know the alternative realities that never happened, but Just political point scoring?
I don’t really think so to be honest under the circumstances, but if it is so be it.
A lot of people are in denial at the moment about the complacency and inaction in those key early weeks, and it’s impact on what is happening now. Many are also seeking to close down debate about it.
The Sunday Times revealed a couple of weeks ago the influence that Dominic Cummings had on what happened or worse what didn’t happen then.
I sincerely hope that Boris is now able to reboot his government without this cynical individual.
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7Was Boris Johnson right to say we should "take it on the chin"
And if so was he still right to reverse that decision in panic when warned about 400,000 possible deaths.
As usual the Tories want it both ways.
 
Don't think anyone has said there haven't been mistakes made, have they? And yes it seemed it was right to reverse his decision. That's called stating the bleeding obvious.

But you Cat, you only want it one way. Everything is simply about the politics with you. Not an ounce of compassion in you. Disgusting.
 
catinstalbans said:
Was Boris Johnson right to say we should "take it on the chin" NO
And if so was he still right to reverse that decision in panic when warned about 400,000 possible deaths. YES
As usual the Tories want it both ways.
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It was obviously right to reverse that decision!!
Geez are you suggesting in the light of new information he should have stuck to his guns Cat!!? ☹

I understand it may have helped defeat the devil incarnate tories at the next election.

Surely though even you must have limits on the amount of 'collateral. damage' acceptable just to get your chosen party in power?

You cannot have it both ways either my funny furry friend.
 
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Scarborian said:
The way Labour is attempting to politicize the pandemic is the reason why we are not in power today.
Starmer has a chance to reshape the party and show himself to be a statesman something that Corbyn never achieved.
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a) the Opposition has to hold the Government to account.
b) that is not why they lost the election.
c) I think that Starmer will become a well-respected leader of the Party.
 
southshore said:
The population density of the uk is 259 people per kilometer, Ireland 147.
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With respect, these figures are inaccurate. In any event a more relevant representation would be a comparison of Ireland's density of population with that of England. This gives a more realistic comparison of the ability of both countries to shield individuals from the virus.
Ireland's population density is 67 per km and England's is 428 per km.
 
catinstalbans said:
Apparently Germany are too organised and successful a nation to compare ourselves to, after all who would have thought when Matt Hancock stood up in Parliament on 11 February and said that the UK and the NHS was well prepared that we might need to carry out a few tests to see who has got the virus, or that nurses and doctors might need PPE.
So if Germany is too good to compare ourselves to, then perhaps our closest neighbour Ireland might be a more realistic comparison.
We started with almost the same number of CCU beds, similarly underfunded health systems and a culturally and historically linked population.
While the UK has had just under 10,000 deaths the Irish have had less than 400. Of course the population of the UK is so much greater so let's look at deaths per 100,000 people
UK 14.81
Ireland 6.5
Why the difference?
Ireland locked down much earlier, no St Patrick's day celebrations in the pubs, schools were closed, and lockdown effectively began on March 13.
Meanwhile Cheltenham went ahead, Boris had (officially) no plans to close
schools, pubs and restaurants or to ban major sporting events.
According to figures this one week delay can lead to 18 less deaths per asymptomatic infected person carrying the infection around in the open for that extra week. That's 18 parents, grandparents, husbands, wives and in rare cases children lost unnecessarily due to complacency and negligence.
Also compared to Ireland, the UK has tested 4 tests per 1000, Ireland 8.7.
This means that while everyone recognises that the UK is under reporting covid 19 deaths, in comparison this under reporting will be less in Ireland simply because they have carried out more tests.
So with the time lag of this virus someone infected at Cheltenham who went on to have major problems would have been in hospital this week. The people they went on to infect will be dying over the next two weeks. Lives lost because of an ideology that puts money before people, and a national tragedy that could and should have been avoidable.
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Density of population, in more than one way.
 
deary said:
It was obviously right to reverse that decision!!
Geez are you suggesting in the light of new information he should have stuck to his guns Cat!!? ☹

I understand it may have helped defeat the devil incarnate tories at the next election.

Surely though even you must have limits on the amount of 'collateral. damage' acceptable just to get your chosen party in power?

You cannot have it both ways either my funny furry friend.
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I'm saying that his initial negligence cost hundreds of unnecessary lives but apparently I lack compassion for caring about this.
 
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