Debate: Is Hatred and Bigotry a Transient Phase?

1966_and_all_that

1966_and_all_that

Well-known member
There’s a very interesting article in the Guardian today (Can English Football’s Cycle of Racism and hatred Be Broken? By Jonathan Liew), that opens onto the wider issues of racism and hatred (not just racial hatred) in wider society. Liew focuses on social media as the blue touch-paper for his evidence – not surprisingly in the context of Covid lockdowns. He states: “The recent wave of social media abuse – directed primarily at prominent black footballers – follows a well-worn pattern. The incidents begin to cluster with a grisly momentum: Marcus Rashford, Axel Tuanzebe on two separate occasions, Anthony Martial, Reece James, Romaine Sawyers, Alex Jankewitz and Lauren James. Statements are issued. Governing bodies, broadcasters and public figures clamber over each other to offer their condemnation, often by way of a fancy social media graphic. And then, like any wave, the anger subsides. The news cycle gets bored. Racism carries on, and so does everyone else. Until the next wave, at least. As Rashford put it last week: ‘Only time will tell if the situation improves. But it’s not improved over the last few years.’”

As far as it goes that points to a reawakening of the racism that many had hoped (believed), had gone away with monkey noises and bananas being thrown at Cyrille Regis, Laurie Cunningham and Brendon Batson. But then Liew broadens it out: “This isn’t just about racism, as demonstrated by the death threats sent to referee Mike Dean over the weekend, or the recent treatment of the pundit Karen Carney by Leeds fans. Nor is it about single incidents, or even overt abuse. Focusing on social media platforms is to address only the thinnest sliver of the problem, given that much of the abuse currently being dished out has simply migrated online in the absence of fans from stadiums. For all the joy it inspires, the stirring stories it serves up, English football feels more thoroughly consumed by hatred than at any point in its recent history: a smell you can neither accurately place nor decisively ignore.”

My thoughts take Liew’s contention – “that much of the abuse currently being dished out has simply migrated online in the absence of fans from stadiums,” and turns it around. It is my suggestion that social media has given a public voice to many whose outlet for their latent rage had perhaps previously been limited to football hooliganism (highly controlled by the Police from the mid-80s onwards), graffiti (football, social and political) and going on peripheral far-right marches. Add to that the de facto support given to the trolls by media platforms unwilling to police themselves and Governments seemingly unwilling to force them to do so and we have a recipe for verbal lawlessness that can stray into physical violence – vis. the murder of Jo Cox.

But does it have to be this way? Am I right to believe that social media just happens to have provided an outlet for a ‘type’ of people who’ve been longing all this time to spew their nastiness at the objects of their bigotry? Yes, the pandemic will be making people more irritated, which is only to be expected, but the decent into vulgarity has been going on for longer than that. Or, is it just ordinary people being lazy with the shorthand nature of Twitter saying ‘’I haven’t got the time, patience or room in this tweet to explain why it is that your performance in today’s game was sub-standard, so I’ll just go with, ‘F**k off Smith! You’re a complete a**ewipe!’”?

Over to you….
 
It's not social media's fault and deleting everything makes no difference, these types have been empowered in their vitriol recently by both Trump and the Brexit vote, that's about it really, it's not transient, it's always there. They see BLM as some kind of threat for reasons best known to their own skewered minds.

Some people are thick wankers, that's all.
 
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1966_and_all_that said:
There’s a very interesting article in the Guardian today (Can English Football’s Cycle of Racism and hatred Be Broken? By Jonathan Liew), that opens onto the wider issues of racism and hatred (not just racial hatred) in wider society. Liew focuses on social media as the blue touch-paper for his evidence – not surprisingly in the context of Covid lockdowns. He states: “The recent wave of social media abuse – directed primarily at prominent black footballers – follows a well-worn pattern. The incidents begin to cluster with a grisly momentum: Marcus Rashford, Axel Tuanzebe on two separate occasions, Anthony Martial, Reece James, Romaine Sawyers, Alex Jankewitz and Lauren James. Statements are issued. Governing bodies, broadcasters and public figures clamber over each other to offer their condemnation, often by way of a fancy social media graphic. And then, like any wave, the anger subsides. The news cycle gets bored. Racism carries on, and so does everyone else. Until the next wave, at least. As Rashford put it last week: ‘Only time will tell if the situation improves. But it’s not improved over the last few years.’”

As far as it goes that points to a reawakening of the racism that many had hoped (believed), had gone away with monkey noises and bananas being thrown at Cyrille Regis, Laurie Cunningham and Brendon Batson. But then Liew broadens it out: “This isn’t just about racism, as demonstrated by the death threats sent to referee Mike Dean over the weekend, or the recent treatment of the pundit Karen Carney by Leeds fans. Nor is it about single incidents, or even overt abuse. Focusing on social media platforms is to address only the thinnest sliver of the problem, given that much of the abuse currently being dished out has simply migrated online in the absence of fans from stadiums. For all the joy it inspires, the stirring stories it serves up, English football feels more thoroughly consumed by hatred than at any point in its recent history: a smell you can neither accurately place nor decisively ignore.”

My thoughts take Liew’s contention – “that much of the abuse currently being dished out has simply migrated online in the absence of fans from stadiums,” and turns it around. It is my suggestion that social media has given a public voice to many whose outlet for their latent rage had perhaps previously been limited to football hooliganism (highly controlled by the Police from the mid-80s onwards), graffiti (football, social and political) and going on peripheral far-right marches. Add to that the de facto support given to the trolls by media platforms unwilling to police themselves and Governments seemingly unwilling to force them to do so and we have a recipe for verbal lawlessness that can stray into physical violence – vis. the murder of Jo Cox.

But does it have to be this way? Am I right to believe that social media just happens to have provided an outlet for a ‘type’ of people who’ve been longing all this time to spew their nastiness at the objects of their bigotry? Yes, the pandemic will be making people more irritated, which is only to be expected, but the decent into vulgarity has been going on for longer than that. Or, is it just ordinary people being lazy with the shorthand nature of Twitter saying ‘’I haven’t got the time, patience or room in this tweet to explain why it is that your performance in today’s game was sub-standard, so I’ll just go with, ‘F**k off Smith! You’re a complete a**ewipe!’”?

Over to you….
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Interesting.

I certainly agree with the points about the fickle, short-term nature of media interest in the issue.

I also feel that social media is the genie that has got out of the bottle. We used to have a relatively rational and well-mannered discourse about these issues, but anyone who uses Twitter knows that objectivity and good manners are in very short supply these days.

I think racism in the white community is prompted by two main things. One, that applies to some groups, is the desire for preservation of a status quo that works in their favour. A movement for change hardly ever starts in the group that ISN"T on the end of the discrimination and prejudice, after all. These are the people who tell you that BLM protestors should get over it, or who try to argue that campaigning for social change is some kind of code for inciting insurrection, or worse. You see it on here all the time.

The second is that people who are near the bottom in terms of living standards, educational attainment and self esteem are desperate to feel better than someone. And very often, people who look different, sound different and who want different things will do just nicely.

Racial prejudice is borne out of ignorance, wherever it is, and whoever it is that displays it.
 
basilrobbie said:
The second is that people who are near the bottom in terms of living standards, educational attainment and self esteem are desperate to feel better than someone. And very often, people who look different, sound different and who want different things will do just nicely.
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That to me sounds like you really do like to look down on a helluva lot of people.
 
I don’t think hatred and bigotry are exclusive to any particular political persuasion, class, colour, creed, religion or nationality. Our views on here are probably slightly skewed by the demographics of this board, but it’s certainly also true that blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, women, the Irish and the Scots, and people on both the left, right and centre are very capable of hatred and bigotry. To sound a bright note - it’s one of the few things we all have in common.

And at its heart lies the concept of “them” and “us”. Every “us” needs a “them” to strengthen the bonds of the group.

So, to answer the op, no I don’t think it’s transient. It’s part of the human condition and I don’t believe we’ll ever make it go away. We’ve just got to recognise it in ourselves (and not just in others) and try to manage it.
 
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Every aspect of life is fundamentally a transient phase in my opinion. I think hatred and bigotry will both eventually disappear, whether that be through the psychological/spiritual progression of humanity, or if we extinct ourselves before we meet that stage.
 
To add to the debate.
Mexboroseasider said:
I don’t think hatred and bigotry are exclusive to any particular political persuasion, class, colour, creed, religion or nationality. Our views on here are probably slightly skewed by the demographics of this board, but it’s certainly also true that blacks, Muslims, Jews, women, the Irish and the Scots, and people on both the left, right and centre are very capable of hatred and bigotry. To sound a bright note - it’s one of the few things we all have in common.

And at its heart lies the concept of “them” and “us”. Every “us” needs a “them” to strengthen the bonds of the group.

So, to answer the op, no I don’t think it’s transient. It’s part of the human condition and I don’t believe we’ll ever make it go away. We’ve just got to recognise it in ourselves (and not just in others) and try to manage it.
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Good post
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I don’t think hatred and bigotry are exclusive to any particular political persuasion, class, colour, creed, religion or nationality. Our views on here are probably slightly skewed by the demographics of this board, but it’s certainly also true that blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, women, the Irish and the Scots, and people on both the left, right and centre are very capable of hatred and bigotry. To sound a bright note - it’s one of the few things we all have in common.

And at its heart lies the concept of “them” and “us”. Every “us” needs a “them” to strengthen the bonds of the group.

So, to answer the op, no I don’t think it’s transient. It’s part of the human condition and I don’t believe we’ll ever make it go away. We’ve just got to recognise it in ourselves (and not just in others) and try to manage it.
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No hope then by the sounds of it.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Like I said it’s down to each individual to manage it within themselves.

So I suppose whether or not you have any “hope” depends on how much confidence you have in your own ability to recognise when hatred and bigotry manifest themselves within you.
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I’m not talking about me, I’m comfortable with my own behaviour, I’m saying your post doesn’t seem to suggest there’s a way forward. For years, education and inclusion has been talked about, but despite the increasing numbers of black and Asians in many areas of the country and therefore our familiarity with them, nothing seems to change.
 
Matesrates said:
I’m not talking about me, I’m comfortable with my own behaviour, I’m saying your post doesn’t seem to suggest there’s a way forward. For years, education and inclusion has been talked about, but despite the increasing numbers of black and Asians in many areas of the country and therefore our familiarity with them, nothing seems to change.
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I think you’ve probably missed my point and stumbled at the first hurdle with your opening sentence.
 
Matesrates said:
How? I replied to your post about what’s within us.
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Well I suppose I was picking up on the suggestion that you didn’t need to reflect on your own views and opinions - you were comfortable with them.

So going back to your post when you say nothing seems to change, are you talking about a failure by blacks and Asians to assimilate? Or hostility to those communities from parts of the white community? Or both?

And when you’ve decided that, go back to my first paragraph and ask whether you’re still comfortable with your views.
 
I think with the advent of Social Media and the rise of the keyboard warrior it is so easy to spout bile and hatred and has a lot to do with our current situation.

Social Media, the best thing in the world and unfortunately, the worst!
 
20togo said:
That to me sounds like you really do like to look down on a helluva lot of people.
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It's just an observation about human nature. I don't think any of us are immune to it. You just see what you want to see.
 
I`ve enjoyed reading this interesting thread and particularly like Mex`s contributions.We all have to be more self aware before we can eradicate or at least reduce our own prejudices and uncharitable thoughts or actions.

As for social media which has many positives but unfortunately it also often allows the quick and easy release of, or gives expression to, much of the negative and unpleasant side of human nature that previously has been left unsaid or spoken only to those close to us with consequently much less damaging consequences most often.

As for Robbie`s post it is certainly true that that it is human nature to search for those we can look down on to egotistically justify our own worth and for some racism is one way of doing this which is perhaps based on the past and what are seen as the relative achievements of different races and creeds. Most instinctively also relate to those most similar to themselves.

And I should add that I liked Poultongirl`s post which really made me laugh.
 
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I have got a few observations.
There have been a few psychological experiments carried out that have shown, that thankfully, racism is not an inherited (i.e. genetically driven) behaviour and is learned. However, it can be shown that in the same sort of experiments humans will discriminate in favour of people that they think are in the same group as them. This is often manifested in the unconscious biases that all humans have.
The second observation is that race and other groupings are really man made phenomena. Where are the boundaries between different races (or groups)? Essentially we are all made from slightly different DNA that exists in a multi dimensional continuous space. Putting people into racial (or other) groups is just dividing this space up arbitrarily. We are all unique and this is what we should try to remember in our interactions with other people.
Finally, I think people have been emboldened by things like Brexit, the fact that we have a PM who is on the record of saying racist and homophobic things and that the internet gives the illusion of anonymity. However, the very crude, casual racism and intolerance of different people that I frequently witnessed as a child during the 70s and 80s is thankfully nowhere near as prevalent now. In many ways society is a lot better but we do have a problem with social media.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well I suppose I was picking up on the suggestion that you didn’t need to reflect on your own views and opinions - you were comfortable with them.

So going back to your post when you say nothing seems to change, are you talking about a failure by blacks and Asians to assimilate? Or hostility to those communities from parts of the white community? Or both?

And when you’ve decided that, go back to my first paragraph and ask whether you’re still comfortable with your views.
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There’s a section of society that hasn’t and won’t, imo, ever change their views and I am talking about white, black, Asian. My first house in 1969 was next door to a West Indian as they were known, married to a white girl, probably the only black in York, and a really nice guy who I got on with well. Since then I’ve employed blacks and Asians, including my main man who was black. I have a black sister in law and two black nephews and I have a gay nephew who I see regularly. Just to be clear, I’m married and heterosexual. Yes, I’m comfortable with my own views.
 
I don`t think it is transient, and suspect that through history and the world generally today, hatred and bigotry are festering away much of the time.

I suspect it is part of a human`s evolutionary instinct to group with one`s own, and be wary of other groups; and this will trait be exploited, especially at times of difficulty.

At times of upheaval, discontentment comes to the fore, and there are plenty of media outlets where people are only too keen to point as to who is likely to be stealing your biscuits.

And they usually point downwards, and towards those that are different, for the reasons other posters have mentioned.

`Twas ever thus..
 
Just thinking aloud...

Mex's post is interesting as it begs the question; "is it wrong to feel how we do?" For millennia of evolutionary developments we've had one aim - to ensure our DNA (individually and collectively) carries on.

On a geological time scale, the mass movement and interaction of our species is in its infancy. Is the reaction against "the others" just a deeply biological response as we haven't yet caught up with the technological underpinnings of 200 years of so? For example, when we think of how indigenous people responded to explorers by generally attacking them for no reason other than they were 'different'

I wonder whether we are trying to impose a structure on a species which doesn't actually want it?

No idea; but we need to be careful about how respond to people with whom we disagree for whatever reason.
 
The question was 'Can English football etc. etc. rid us of this racism'?

These people are not necessarily just on about football.
It's just ingrained in certain peoples minds whether it's to do with football or not.
We have to get rid of them in Society as a whole first.
 
I know we are all football fans on here but I wonder whether others may agree that if you look at all sports and indeed society as a whole the game of football attracts more of lowest ,least intelligent, most bigoted,often violent individuals both at the grounds and on social media than all other sports put together and indeed even on the pitch the dishonesty and cheating that goes on week in week out shames a beautiful game and compares very poorly with any other sports.

I love the game but many who watch and play it do it a grave disservice and I could fully understand some becoming disillusioned with it as a result, or is sportsmanship honesty and morality irrelevant with winning the only thing that matters?
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
I know we are all football fans on here but I wonder whether others may agree that if you look at all sports and indeed society as a whole the game of football attracts more of lowest ,least intelligent, most bigoted,often violent individuals both at the grounds and on social media than all other sports put together and indeed even on the pitch the dishonesty and cheating that goes on week in week out shames a beautiful game and compares very poorly with any other sports.

I love the game but many who watch and play it do it a grave disservice and I could fully understand some becoming disillusioned with it as a result, or is sportsmanship honesty and morality irrelevant with winning the only thing that matters?
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You mean it's the lower class working man, labour voter.[wink]

Why aren't the emojis available to use? Anyone else not able to use them?
 
Suddickbender said:
I think with the advent of Social Media and the rise of the keyboard warrior it is so easy to spout bile and hatred and has a lot to do with our current situation.

Social Media, the best thing in the world and unfortunately, the worst!
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That is key to my OP. Great posts by others on the more cerebral plane but my contention is that a huge number of people who use social media - not just the thugs and prejudiced - see social media as a no-holds barred arena in which to behave attrociously towards one-another. Even ordinary people who get wound up can find themselves hurling abuse at others that would otherwise remain in their heads, possibly accompanied by a kick at the cat/bin. This is not good for our psyche as a nation/community, call it what you will.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
That is key to my OP. Great posts by others on the more cerebral plane but my contention is that a huge number of people who use social media - not just the thugs and prejudiced - see social media as a no-holds barred arena in which to behave attrociously towards one-another. Even ordinary people who get wound up can find themselves hurling abuse at others that would otherwise remain in their heads, possibly accompanied by a kick at the cat/bin. This is not good for our psyche as a nation/community, call it what you will.
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The answer to that is not to use it.

I created a Facebook profile because I needed to take an admin role at work throughout Covid and have about 20 "friends" and have posted maybe half a dozen times in my personal capacity. I have a work Twitter account.

And I have here.

I've only been called sweetheart once and was questioned about being on drugs once; most of the time this place is pretty civilised and is a lot of fun.

If I think people are getting out of hand, I just don't read it - life is far too short.
 
20togo said:
You mean it's the lower class working man, labour voter.[wink]

Why aren't the emojis available to use? Anyone else not able to use them?
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Your interpretation not mine.

There`s far too much talk of and concentration on class in this country by those who have a hang up about it and sometimes about their perception of what they imagine to be the class they themslves think they are in.

Those I refer to are sadly what they are wherever they may come from.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
Your interpretation not mine.

There`s far too much talk of and concentration on class in this country by those who have a hang up about it and sometimes about their perception of what they imagine to be the class they themslves think they are in.

Those I refer to are sadly what they are wherever they may come from.
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I totally agree with your second para.

My comment was just an off the cuff remark intended as a bit of humour whilst making a point. Hence I put the wink in.
 
20togo said:
I totally agree with your second para.

My comment was just an off the cuff remark intended as a bit of humour whilst making a point. Hence I put the wink in.
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You can't win though with social media 20s. You put up your bit of humour and then I come back at you with, 'not so off the cuff pal! You're always...' then you come back with, ' pot calling the kettle black, pal!'... and the whole things moves off kilter into verbal fisticuffs.
 
20togo said:
That to me sounds like you really do like to look down on a helluva lot of people.
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Nicely played (chuckle)
Racism takes on many forms and specifically I've raised complaints with the Football Supporters Association about the use of anti Semitic language on forums, not by ordinary fans but by a member of the National Council.
You'd have thought those involved ie University educated, supposedly enlightened people would do something about it but the response was poor to say the least.

Hypocrisy,double standards and an inverted snobbery to the effects on society hold no bounds, but you wouldn't expect any different from some people would you?

* happy to stick it on here at any time Mr Moderator.
 
Matesrates said:
There’s a section of society that hasn’t and won’t, imo, ever change their views and I am talking about white, black, Asian. My first house in 1969 was next door to a West Indian as they were known, married to a white girl, probably the only black in York, and a really nice guy who I got on with well. Since then I’ve employed blacks and Asians, including my main man who was black. I have a black sister in law and two black nephews and I have a gay nephew who I see regularly. Just to be clear, I’m married and heterosexual. Yes, I’m comfortable with my own views.
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"There’s a section of society that hasn’t and won’t, imo, ever change their views and I am talking about white, black, Asian." Unfortunately, there are also many, many more that see racism in any little comment, how has this affected the authors view on actual racism?. I'm not a fan of social media, never have been, but I use Facebook mainly for the special interest groups. and whenever I have taken an interest in these debates most comments I have seen are criticisms against individuals or actions, founded or unfounded, ie Rashford. He has been very vocal about hungry kids and got a lot of abuse about it for promoting his own image, is that racist? Is it racist to criticise taking the knee? I don't think so, but you find claims of racism about these comments all the time. If the claims of hatred and racism on other platforms are anywhere near true, I'm glad I am not part of them.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I don’t think hatred and bigotry are exclusive to any particular political persuasion, class, colour, creed, religion or nationality. Our views on here are probably slightly skewed by the demographics of this board, but it’s certainly also true that blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, women, the Irish and the Scots, and people on both the left, right and centre are very capable of hatred and bigotry. To sound a bright note - it’s one of the few things we all have in common.

And at its heart lies the concept of “them” and “us”. Every “us” needs a “them” to strengthen the bonds of the group.

So, to answer the op, no I don’t think it’s transient. It’s part of the human condition and I don’t believe we’ll ever make it go away. We’ve just got to recognise it in ourselves (and not just in others) and try to manage it.
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"So, to answer the op, no I don’t think it’s transient. It’s part of the human condition and I don’t believe we’ll ever make it go away. We’ve just got to recognise it in ourselves (and not just in others) and try to manage it."

Sorry Mex, I missed reading your post. My point is precisely that social media encourages us all not to manage these innate tendencies towards dislike, bigotry and jealousy. It actively encourages these very vices by its anonymity, it's necessary brevity and its immediacy - we tend not to stop and think before posting.
 
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