football governance needs emergency surgery

The best player plays the worst player in the first round, and then the worst player left in subsequent rounds. Its transparent and its rigged.

Wiz

Regarding seeding, you are talking utter nonsense.

A seeding is earned by a performance, it's not rigged


On football, we both know exactly what happens in football now and what used to happen, I enjoy discussing and debating all matters with you Wiz but I am not sure where we are going with this one, other than you are clearly unhappy with the way the top clubs distribute the monies they generate.

Whether you like it or not, the Premier League is an amazingly successful product and the majority of the proceeds from that success go to the clubs that participate in that league whether you like it or not.
 
The FA Cup is seeded and a few years ago they brought in a rule that Leeds United aren't allowed to progress beyond the 3rd round
 
Wiz

Regarding seeding, you are talking utter nonsense.

A seeding is earned by a performance, it's not rigged


On football, we both know exactly what happens in football now and what used to happen, I enjoy discussing and debating all matters with you Wiz but I am not sure where we are going with this one, other than you are clearly unhappy with the way the top clubs distribute the monies they generate.

Whether you like it or not, the Premier League is an amazingly successful product and the majority of the proceeds from that success go to the clubs that participate in that league whether you like it or not.

You are essentially telling him not to think about the possibility that anything could be different. Why?

Are you on the side of billionaires on an ego trip or football fans with the modest ambition of maybe winning a League cup or something before they die...

I'm pretty happy to accept I'm not a billionaire. I'd just like to see us once in my lifetime manage to win a thing

That's kind of like most fans feel. Like Swindon won a league cup once or whatever. Like Chesterfield got to that semi.

Why should we just accept that the billionaires own that too?

It's an honest question.
 
You are essentially telling him not to think about the possibility that anything could be different. Why?

Are you on the side of billionaires on an ego trip or football fans with the modest ambition of maybe winning a League cup or something before they die...

I'm pretty happy to accept I'm not a billionaire. I'd just like to see us once in my lifetime manage to win a thing

That's kind of like most fans feel. Like Swindon won a league cup once or whatever. Like Chesterfield got to that semi.

Why should we just accept that the billionaires own that too?

It's an honest question.

Firstly, no problem at all with what you ask td.

I agree with you when you say I am telling him that things are not going to be different.

I believe that the rewards of success, in this case the Premier League revenues should largely go to those who generate those revenues, in this case the Premier League clubs.

I also believe that those lower down the pyramid contribute to that success and that their contribution should be recognised financially by those at the top.

I would imagine that if there was to be negotiation the lower clubs would think they were not getting enough of the revenues and that the Premier League clubs would think they were making a fair contribution.

The shocks/giantkilling will still occur but I agree that the gap between the lower league and Premier League sides has grown and I think this is a direct result of the huge success of the Premier League.

As I have already said, I think that the lower league sides have also contributed to that success but I don't know exactly how much that contribution is worth.

In short, there is not going to be any sharing of revenues no matter how romantic that might be and the gap will probably widen further, that should also make the shocks/giantkilling more rare and perhaps more sweet.
 
Golf and tennis players require money initially to get to a level of required ability and then they need opportunities generally linked to money, to allow a player to develop enough in the right amateur/junior environment to be able to become good enough to try and qualify for a tour card, then stay on the tour during the initial period where earnings are low.

Should the worlds top 20 players give a percentage of their earnings to a pool that allows all the rest the financial buffer to keep playing and training for longer to improve their chances of competing?

The answer to the above is obvious...

My corner shop is a valuable asset to the local community. Should Asda, Sainsbury’s et al provide it with money to ensure it stays in business or can expand irrespective of its own earnings?
 
In the latter point yes, in a way I think they should. If a large business is very successful, it should be taxed in such a way that allows smaller businesses to compete via things like lower tax rates or encouragement of start ups and innovative new businesses.

If you just say "oh well" if someone dominates a market entirely, to the point at which all their competitors wither and the price of entry into that market is prohibitive, then actually you've got a problem from whatever ideological perspective you look at it, left or right.

Often new supermarkets come at a cost of some sort of social donation. Councils sell land on the basis that Tesco will fund X or Y as part of the deal...

Another way to look at it might be to say "should supermarkets pay a fair price for the milk they buy or should they abuse their position as market leaders to rip off their supply chain?" as there's a mutual dependence as well as a competition between clubs. You might say "United don't need Rochdale" but they are like the businesses that service the milking machines - it's a chain and if the top of the supply chain abuses it's position then all the rest of the chain suffers.

Individual sports often have funding attached to talent development programmes which comes from their earnings as a sport. It's not up to the individual players to fund other golfers but up to the PGA to decide how to distribute the money that comes into the sport. If they pay it all in prize money, then that's clearly daft if the impact of that means the sport declines in competitive merit because golfers can't afford to play. I don't know how golf works really but I'm vaguely aware you get some money for turning up that probably covers your air fare if you come last.

Flipping the question and saying "is it right if the world's best golfers decide to charge exorbitant fees to enter the competitions (which only they can afford due to prize money already earned?)" puts a different spin on it. It's important to any sport, individual or not, important to business as well, that opportunities or markets are not fixed or stifled.
 
In the latter point yes, in a way I think they should. If a large business is very successful, it should be taxed in such a way that allows smaller businesses to compete via things like lower tax rates or encouragement of start ups and innovative new businesses.

If you just say "oh well" if someone dominates a market entirely, to the point at which all their competitors wither and the price of entry into that market is prohibitive, then actually you've got a problem from whatever ideological perspective you look at it, left or right.

Often new supermarkets come at a cost of some sort of social donation. Councils sell land on the basis that Tesco will fund X or Y as part of the deal...

Another way to look at it might be to say "should supermarkets pay a fair price for the milk they buy or should they abuse their position as market leaders to rip off their supply chain?" as there's a mutual dependence as well as a competition between clubs. You might say "United don't need Rochdale" but they are like the businesses that service the milking machines - it's a chain and if the top of the supply chain abuses it's position then all the rest of the chain suffers.

Individual sports often have funding attached to talent development programmes which comes from their earnings as a sport. It's not up to the individual players to fund other golfers but up to the PGA to decide how to distribute the money that comes into the sport. If they pay it all in prize money, then that's clearly daft if the impact of that means the sport declines in competitive merit because golfers can't afford to play. I don't know how golf works really but I'm vaguely aware you get some money for turning up that probably covers your air fare if you come last.

Flipping the question and saying "is it right if the world's best golfers decide to charge exorbitant fees to enter the competitions (which only they can afford due to prize money already earned?)" puts a different spin on it. It's important to any sport, individual or not, important to business as well, that opportunities or markets are not fixed or stifled.

The key point I've been making all along, is not that "United don't need Rochdale" but to ensure that Rochdale recognise the don't need United.

You're making it that it's become a closed shop, whereas the examples of Chelsea, City and to an extent even Leicester show that opportunities are there. But equally as important is the fact that the previous system was also a closed shop to a huge extent and potentially even more.

Blackpool FC exists within a competitive football structure. Within my time of supporting them, we've predominantly been in League 1 and League 2 - which is exactly where we 'should be' based on our 'size' as a football club over that same period (mid-80's to present). I struggle to see what the issue is, other than a mythical notion that the gap between haves and have nots has grown (but in reality our chance of winning things is exactly the same as it always was) and that spending too much on players wages versus revenues is unsustainable.

The young golfer, the corner shop, the tech start up or whoever, still needs to provide some sort of spark that moves them from their starting point to become better, bigger, more influential or whatever...Bemoaning that the others have all the advantages in an ever changing world isn't going to cut it and won't change anything.

Opportunities aren't fixed or stifled. Based on Wiz' point re tennis; yes, it's really tough to break through the rankings if you're playing top ranked players earlier in tournaments, but the most transparent way of showing you're a top ranked player is to BEAT top ranked players. Then you progress. If you can never beat them, then the harsh truth is you aren't good enough.
 
Some great debate on here and superb points made intelligently and tbo I agree with both the posters above.

Good innings too and I hope the contributions of others is acknowledged when the bat is raised,after all we're a co-operative now ☺
 
The key point I've been making all along, is not that "United don't need Rochdale" but to ensure that Rochdale recognise the don't need United.

You're making it that it's become a closed shop, whereas the examples of Chelsea, City and to an extent even Leicester show that opportunities are there. But equally as important is the fact that the previous system was also a closed shop to a huge extent and potentially even more.

Blackpool FC exists within a competitive football structure. Within my time of supporting them, we've predominantly been in League 1 and League 2 - which is exactly where we 'should be' based on our 'size' as a football club over that same period (mid-80's to present). I struggle to see what the issue is, other than a mythical notion that the gap between haves and have nots has grown (but in reality our chance of winning things is exactly the same as it always was) and that spending too much on players wages versus revenues is unsustainable.

The young golfer, the corner shop, the tech start up or whoever, still needs to provide some sort of spark that moves them from their starting point to become better, bigger, more influential or whatever...Bemoaning that the others have all the advantages in an ever changing world isn't going to cut it and won't change anything.

Opportunities aren't fixed or stifled. Based on Wiz' point re tennis; yes, it's really tough to break through the rankings if you're playing top ranked players earlier in tournaments, but the most transparent way of showing you're a top ranked player is to BEAT top ranked players. Then you progress. If you can never beat them, then the harsh truth is you aren't good enough.
Those opportunities are entirely contingent on external funding. That's limited. There is a huge entry price to pay to compete.

You mentioned Sadler in a previous point showing that rich people shouldn't feel dissuaded from investing. Perhaps. But it seems at many clubs, they are. Wigan have been through endless false starts. What if there just isn't a Sadler?

What if Sadler had been born in Blackburn instead?

I don't disagree that there's other solutions other than tugging on the premier league coat tails. Personally I'd be quite happy to pull the clubs out the pyramid and set up a new league with new rules based on better principles.

I think also there's something disingenuous about painting this as bemoaning. It's not. It's a fact that Man U pay their CEO more than Morecambe's entire wage bill for everyone that works at the club. That's just a fact in context where clubs like Morecambe are struggling despite having signed up to curb wages and limit spending.

It's also a fact that Liverpool got paid 1/4 of a billion in 'earnings' from competitions that Morecambe couldn't ever hope to enter without risk taking that would jeopardize the club.

Obviously Morecambe are an extreme example but the same applies to a greater or lesser extent to many teams.

They don't have access to earn the money that premier league teams have given themselves access to do. You earn zero prize money from any EFL competition and yet you earn 150 million (plus then the European earnings) from the winning the EPL.

That's like not providing any prize money for any PGA tour events and then wondering why the top golfers remain the top golfers cos only they can afford to compete.

It's illogical, it's non sporting. It's not 'bemoaning' - it's facts.
 
Look forget Blackpool and the Matthews era that is not the bigger point. And your point is tosh as well. You don't go to watch the opposition now do you because of who they are. You go to watch your team, that is the attraction. You go to watch Blackpool. So why should a club that for instance gets 50000 home supporters have to share their gate money [25,000 fans worth]with a team that only gets 20000 home supporters [10,000fans worth.] The difference being 15000 fans of your home fans money your having to give to a lesser supported team. I'll tell you what, let's ask Sunderland,Pompey and Ipswich if they'll give us some of their fans season ticket money to even things out eh!

I think there are some interesting points in this post.

I think you are only partly right 20s. I would argue that the hard core fan of a club like Blackpool ALWAYS goes along predominantly to watch them, rather than the opposition. I can only speak for myself, but an opposition player usually has to do something very special against us before I even notice him.

Outside of the hard core, I'm not at all sure that you are right. Our crowds practically doubled when we made it to the PL. Were all those people there to watch Blackpool? Not necessarily, and not exclusively, I would say.

if you then look at the TV audience - some of it is hard core, clearly. A lot of it is just people consuming a product, in my view. You watch a lot of EPL football, don't you? And outside of a natural affinity for Tottenham you are probably watching it because you have general, rather than specific interest. And there will be plenty of people in the same camp who don't actually have your long-standing attachment to the game.

I think that the way the game is run now caters disproportionately for the TV audience. I know that is where the money is, but the balance is wrong, in my view. It is easy to forget that the sport flourished for over a century before Sky came along, and in my view it would do so again if ever they were told to sling their hook. It thrives, and has thrived, because of the depth and intensity of the competition within it. And that quality is being diluted steadily, year on year.

This has been a good debate, but I am with td53 on one key point ; it is striking how many of you don't even want to contemplate the possibility of radical change. And I don't think you can generalise about supporters of clubs like those you mentioned at the end of your post, 20s. Your point is perfectly valid, and will be true of some people. But not of all ; and I happen to believe that discontent is growing, even if people aren't always absolutely sure they can put their finger on what precisely is wrong.
 
I think there are some interesting points in this post.

I think you are only partly right 20s. I would argue that the hard core fan of a club like Blackpool ALWAYS goes along predominantly to watch them, rather than the opposition. I can only speak for myself, but an opposition player usually has to do something very special against us before I even notice him.

Outside of the hard core, I'm not at all sure that you are right. Our crowds practically doubled when we made it to the PL. Were all those people there to watch Blackpool? Not necessarily, and not exclusively, I would say.

if you then look at the TV audience - some of it is hard core, clearly. A lot of it is just people consuming a product, in my view. You watch a lot of EPL football, don't you? And outside of a natural affinity for Tottenham you are probably watching it because you have general, rather than specific interest. And there will be plenty of people in the same camp who don't actually have your long-standing attachment to the game.

I think that the way the game is run now caters disproportionately for the TV audience. I know that is where the money is, but the balance is wrong, in my view. It is easy to forget that the sport flourished for over a century before Sky came along, and in my view it would do so again if ever they were told to sling their hook. It thrives, and has thrived, because of the depth and intensity of the competition within it. And that quality is being diluted steadily, year on year.

This has been a good debate, but I am with td53 on one key point ; it is striking how many of you don't even want to contemplate the possibility of radical change. And I don't think you can generalise about supporters of clubs like those you mentioned at the end of your post, 20s. Your point is perfectly valid, and will be true of some people. But not of all ; and I happen to believe that discontent is growing, even if people aren't always absolutely sure they can put their finger on what precisely is wrong.
Wigan is a case in point.

I watched Wigan a lot at Springfield park when I was a teenager and I literally couldn't get to Blackpool games (cos I lived about a mile away from Springfield) I have stood in crowds of just over 1000 there. It was good. I enjoyed it.

Fast forward to the premier league and they're getting 28000. Not every week though, generally when United and Liverpool are in town.

I never pick and choose a Blackpool match. Ever. If I can go, I go. I've had seasons where I've missed loads of games but been to the tinpot trophy matches.

If I can't go, it's never because of the opposition. Ever. It's cos I can't afford it or because someone's in hospital, or I'm working or because it's not fair to my family to take a weekend. The match doesn't matter.

I don't think that was the same for a lot of Wigan 'fans' (I have a deep seated chip on my shoulder about Wigan Athletic - could relate to anyone like them really! It's just my personal resentment of their success!!)

Also, the model of active support has changed massively. To get into a lot of premier league grounds, you need a season ticket. To support that, football has created a mythos around the meaning of watching football being to express your undying one eyed devotion to the one true cause.

I know people who in the sixties used to bunk trains and go and watch random games all over the north west based on 'what match looked good' - the ticketing model almost totally prohibits that now and yet, I think it's still quite prevalent in non league as I follow at least three bloggers who visit more or less random games in various minor leagues.

The idea of a 'fan' is a construct and it changes in different eras. Firms used to turn up at different games to their own teams to cause a ruck! Crowds used to be as much based on the weather as anything once upon a time... People would turn up for a glimpse of bloomer, Matthews, Loftthouse, Raich Carter, whoever cos these people were just distant magic. Just line drawings on cigarette cards...
 
Wigan is a case in point.

I watched Wigan a lot at Springfield park when I was a teenager and I literally couldn't get to Blackpool games (cos I lived about a mile away from Springfield) I have stood in crowds of just over 1000 there. It was good. I enjoyed it.


Also, the model of active support has changed massively. To get into a lot of premier league grounds, you need a season ticket. To support that, football has created a mythos around the meaning of watching football being to express your undying one eyed devotion to the one true cause.

I know people who in the sixties used to bunk trains and go and watch random games all over the north west based on 'what match looked good' - the ticketing model almost totally prohibits that now and yet, I think it's still quite prevalent in non league as I follow at least three bloggers who visit more or less random games in various minor leagues.

The idea of a 'fan' is a construct and it changes in different eras. Firms used to turn up at different games to their own teams to cause a ruck! Crowds used to be as much based on the weather as anything once upon a time... People would turn up for a glimpse of bloomer, Matthews, Loftthouse, Raich Carter, whoever cos these people were just distant magic. Just line drawings on cigarette cards...
Yup I think you've caught something that has been missed in the debate,in that some of us grew up watching football in a different era ; where for instance getting a few tins and travelling on a coach was the way to support your club.

That generation are the ones pushing for radical change but forget its different times now, and the marketing from the PL has a massive effect on youngsters perceive football. Yes they market the tradition and history but little Billy can get that by taking the Anfield tour and getting grandma to spend £80 on the latest kit.
 
I did, dozens of posts ago.
Right; I wanted to be absolutely clear there was nothing more to it.

Then I'd say to you, that it's not that people don't 'want' radical change it's that they can see you've no chance of getting it. And that's not said in a defeatist way as, I think I've made it clear that I think that clubs can bring about their own type of change to their own situation. I just believe your definition of radical change is flawed and won't happen as all those who could make it happen have a vested interest in ensuring it stays the same. And that's before we move onto supporters who may start out with good intentions, but just want their club to win when all's said and done.

You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that football is a multi-billion pound business, that is run as any other multi-billion pound business. You won't create any sort of change if you refuse to accept the 'enemy' you're dealing with.
 
You are essentially telling him not to think about the possibility that anything could be different. Why?

Are you on the side of billionaires on an ego trip or football fans with the modest ambition of maybe winning a League cup or something before they die...

I'm pretty happy to accept I'm not a billionaire. I'd just like to see us once in my lifetime manage to win a thing

That's kind of like most fans feel. Like Swindon won a league cup once or whatever. Like Chesterfield got to that semi.

Why should we just accept that the billionaires own that too?

It's an honest question.
Without wishing to be patronising, the short answer is that's just the way it is. It's the way of the world.
I think there are some interesting points in this post.

I think you are only partly right 20s. I would argue that the hard core fan of a club like Blackpool ALWAYS goes along predominantly to watch them, rather than the opposition. I can only speak for myself, but an opposition player usually has to do something very special against us before I even notice him.

Outside of the hard core, I'm not at all sure that you are right. Our crowds practically doubled when we made it to the PL. Were all those people there to watch Blackpool? Not necessarily, and not exclusively, I would say.

if you then look at the TV audience - some of it is hard core, clearly. A lot of it is just people consuming a product, in my view. You watch a lot of EPL football, don't you? And outside of a natural affinity for Tottenham you are probably watching it because you have general, rather than specific interest. And there will be plenty of people in the same camp who don't actually have your long-standing attachment to the game.

I think that the way the game is run now caters disproportionately for the TV audience. I know that is where the money is, but the balance is wrong, in my view. It is easy to forget that the sport flourished for over a century before Sky came along, and in my view it would do so again if ever they were told to sling their hook. It thrives, and has thrived, because of the depth and intensity of the competition within it. And that quality is being diluted steadily, year on year.

This has been a good debate, but I am with td53 on one key point ; it is striking how many of you don't even want to contemplate the possibility of radical change. And I don't think you can generalise about supporters of clubs like those you mentioned at the end of your post, 20s. Your point is perfectly valid, and will be true of some people. But not of all ; and I happen to believe that discontent is growing, even if people aren't always absolutely sure they can put their finger on what precisely is wrong.
Thanks for replying to a debating four year old.

With regards to your first point. yes you are right about the hard core fans. But then we part ways. My view is that we have that hardcore of fans that you refer to. The follow thru thick and thin brigade. But then in my view we have all the extra fans, the fair weather fans for want of a better phrase. Those who will turn up if the team are winning those who will turn up the higher up the leagues we go. Those who only want to watch a 'successful' Blackpool team. But my point is that they are all still Blackpool fans. And to add to that point, that principle applies accross the whole of the four divisions. Home crowds rise and fall depending on a teams 'success' and where they happen to be in the football pyramid. But the key is they are all Blackpool fans.

I fully agree with your next point regarding the general interest in the consumer product. Basically what you are saying is that's peoples individual love for the game although I also recognise that there's plenty left in that debate when it comes specifically down to the worldwide tv audience but then I start to drift away from you again when it comes down to sport in the pre Sky age and what you suggest would happen in the post without Sky age. The horse has bolted, you can't turn back the clock. Like it or not and you clearly don't, it's all part and parcel of making football a global event. It brings football and the giants of the game to the billions, not the millions. It's called progress, just like the many other aspects that the human race have made in the last 100 years. We've been to the moon, we can fly anywhere in the world it's all part of the development of the human race. You might not like certain aspects of it but its a steam train and it's not gonna stop just so you can get off.

As for your final point, I'm not certain you've actually covered my point I made with regards to Wiz's point about clubs sharing match day takings but I most certainly stand by my point that it is ludicrous to suggest that a club who gets big home crowds should share their takings with lesser supported ones. Do you seriously think it reasonable/right/fair that for instance last season Man U with a 75,000 home crowd should share their takings with Bournemouth when they played them at Old Trafford and that Bournemouth should reciprocate when they play the reverse fixture at Dean Court in front of 12,000? Crazy if you think that is reasonable and if you think that's even a starting point for the FSA. You might have a point in thinking there could be a better balance of the TV rights deal although I doubt you'll get too far with it, but when it comes to income actually generated by the clubs themselves then it really is a non starter. I'm sure you really know that too.
 
You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that football is a multi-billion pound business, that is run as any other multi-billion pound business. You won't create any sort of change if you refuse to accept the 'enemy' you're dealing with.

Well a couple of things spring to mind :

1)I don't think it IS run like "any other multi-billion pound business". It is very poorly regulated, what governance there is deliberately distorts competition and there seems scant attention to the parts of the customer base that give it much of its allure.

2) The cat may well be out of the bag in terms of the money in the game. And I won't repeat my arguments about how the money could be spread more equitably, whether some of the clubs agree to it or not. But nobody ever seems to consider what would happen if that money suddenly wasn't there.

It's not likely to happen. But Sky could move onto the Far East sporting market, their policies could change when the old man dies, they could even get into legal or financial trouble. My point being, if the financial rug was suddenly pulled out from the current structure, the sport would be better placed to survive if the governance arrangements and the business model reflected good (if not best) practice. And at the moment, they most assuredly don't do that.
 
Well a couple of things spring to mind :

1)I don't think it IS run like "any other multi-billion pound business". It is very poorly regulated, what governance there is deliberately distorts competition and there seems scant attention to the parts of the customer base that give it much of its allure.

2) The cat may well be out of the bag in terms of the money in the game. And I won't repeat my arguments about how the money could be spread more equitably, whether some of the clubs agree to it or not. But nobody ever seems to consider what would happen if that money suddenly wasn't there.

It's not likely to happen. But Sky could move onto the Far East sporting market, their policies could change when the old man dies, they could even get into legal or financial trouble. My point being, if the financial rug was suddenly pulled out from the current structure, the sport would be better placed to survive if the governance arrangements and the business model reflected good (if not best) practice. And at the moment, they most assuredly don't do that.
In terms of money and Sky, there are too many players now that sky no longer has the monopoly on pfv. If they went the void would be snatched up- to the viewers detriment. Money in the game is here for the medium term at least. In fact that money will increase and it will lead to an ESL 1 & 2. That won't be stopped. That could then go 2 ways, one it could lead to the vastly reduced domestic money being shared more equally, because the top PL teams would now need more competition to sell to TV, or, two less money filtering down because the drive to get a promotion to the ESL 2 needs money- even the ES play-offs (the new CL) would generate huge amounts.

As it stands now I think the notion that PL clubs would subsidise otherwise unsustainable clubs, who purport to be community clubs without the community financial support is somewhat far fetched.
 
Well a couple of things spring to mind :

1)I don't think it IS run like "any other multi-billion pound business". It is very poorly regulated, what governance there is deliberately distorts competition and there seems scant attention to the parts of the customer base that give it much of its allure.
We'll have to agree to disagree here.
Clubs are operated to generate revenue and provide a 'return' in some form for their owners/shareholders. There are many reasons that a club and it's owner may have for doing it and what sort of return they want or need, but ultimately, they want cash flowing through the books.
I don't think governance distorts competition unless you seriously think Blackpool should be allowed the same amount of TV money as Manchester United despite it being clear to all that Manchester United contribute a lot more to the value of the TV deal. As for the attention given to the customer base, the biggest 'problem' there is that the customer base consistently shows the business that it will continue to return no matter how it is treated.
A basic rule of business is to keep growing as much as price elasticity of the product allows. I'd argue that until supporters turn their back on clubs en masse then clubs will keep offering up ways to take money from those supporters. It's basic supply and demand really.
2) The cat may well be out of the bag in terms of the money in the game. And I won't repeat my arguments about how the money could be spread more equitably, whether some of the clubs agree to it or not. But nobody ever seems to consider what would happen if that money suddenly wasn't there.

It's not likely to happen. But Sky could move onto the Far East sporting market, their policies could change when the old man dies, they could even get into legal or financial trouble. My point being, if the financial rug was suddenly pulled out from the current structure, the sport would be better placed to survive if the governance arrangements and the business model reflected good (if not best) practice. And at the moment, they most assuredly don't do that.

I won't be so stupid as to say that 'the money will always be there', but aside from you creating a pretty unrealistic scenario to judge by, I'd venture that what would actually happen is that the focus of the football world would shift to another league that would become the richest in the world. English football would need to reset and start again, but the infrastructure would still exist and most clubs would carry on. The biggest hit would be the players themselves as we all know that most are overpaid. However, money is generated by the game and paying customers will still want to watch whether as 'real' spectators or as a TV audience. The overall value has just changed.

I agree re wanting clubs to adopt best or responsible practice, the difference in view we have is that I think clubs should be allowed to operate under their own free will and then be punished in very draconian terms if that proves to be financial folly. Rangers would be a good example there as would Portsmouth. I don't believe that best practice should mean constraining a clubs ability to push itself to achieve more; which is the only realistic way you can grow.
 
Well a couple of things spring to mind :

1)I don't think it IS run like "any other multi-billion pound business". It is very poorly regulated, what governance there is deliberately distorts competition and there seems scant attention to the parts of the customer base that give it much of its allure.

2) The cat may well be out of the bag in terms of the money in the game. And I won't repeat my arguments about how the money could be spread more equitably, whether some of the clubs agree to it or not. But nobody ever seems to consider what would happen if that money suddenly wasn't there.

It's not likely to happen. But Sky could move onto the Far East sporting market, their policies could change when the old man dies, they could even get into legal or financial trouble. My point being, if the financial rug was suddenly pulled out from the current structure, the sport would be better placed to survive if the governance arrangements and the business model reflected good (if not best) practice. And at the moment, they most assuredly don't do that.

Robbie

"But nobody ever seems to consider what would happen if that money suddenly wasn't there"

The monies from Sky could very well be reduced as you suggest, but surely you are not suggesting that the top clubs have not considered such a possibility ?

The Premier League already have massive - and increasing - broadcasting revenues from overseas and are continually looking to increase all existing revenues and create new revenue streams.

You say that ,"the sport would be better placed to survive if the governance arrangements and the business model reflected good (if not best) practice" and in isolation that goes without saying but are you suggesting that in the event of a sudden loss in revenues, the top clubs would be better placed to survive if they agree to part with more of the revenues that they currently generate ?

Fair enough if you are suggesting that the lower league clubs would be better placed to survive if they were to receive a greater share of the revenues generated by the top clubs but to be honest I think that's a given.

I think you overstate the "problems" of the Premier League and are always quick to inform us of how poorly it is run and I'd suggest that this is based more on the fact that you are less than satisfied at the distribution of the revenues that they generate than any genuine failings.

I am not sure that is a big business on the grand scheme of things but the Premier League is an amazing product and has been outstanding successful.

That success was not a given and has been earned by good performance, there is certainly no guarantee that the success will continue and some of the revenue reducing events that you describe could certainly occur but the same could be said of many other businesses and I am sure the Premier League will be doing everything they can to prevent any such happenings and/or manage any such happenings as successfully as possible.

That is not to say that the concerns you raise are not valid but perhaps more would take your concerns more seriously if you didn't continue to tell us all about the failings of this very successful organisation.
 
Agreed. Its almost as though some are trying to create a superfluous argument to justify something,maybe they have a personal agenda in trying to re-establish a reputation or in the case of the FSA their existence- along with the grants they get from the PL fund.

I think we've a general problem of King Canute trying to stop the sea from coming in, and really its only the Luddites that says otherwise
 
Robbie

The monies from Sky could very well be reduced as you suggest, but surely you are not suggesting that the top clubs have not considered such a possibility ?

I think you overstate the "problems" of the Premier League and are always quick to inform us of how poorly it is run and I'd suggest that this is based more on the fact that you are less than satisfied at the distribution of the revenues that they generate than any genuine failings.

I am not sure that is a big business on the grand scheme of things but the Premier League is an amazing product and has been outstanding successful.

That is not to say that the concerns you raise are not valid but perhaps more would take your concerns more seriously if you didn't continue to tell us all about the failings of this very successful organisation.
You've made some great points but at present the Sky monies are keeping the EFL clubs alive as consolidarity payments and other add ons have given the EFL clubs much greater income than they had before.If for whatever reason the PL bubble bursts then it will affect everyone in the pyramid and cause clubs to go under.

Like you say too many are finding problems and not really coming up with practical solutions, where the starting off point is telling other people how to spend their money.

At one point on AVFTT some posters used to wag their finger at those calling for the O's to invest, but now it appears they are saying exactly the same thing to the PL which seems very hypocritical to me.
 
Plumbs

"You've made some great points but at present the Sky monies are keeping the EFL clubs alive as consolidarity payments and other add ons have given the EFL clubs much greater income than they had before.If for whatever reason the PL bubble bursts then it will affect everyone in the pyramid and cause clubs to go under"

I have absolutely no doubt that's the case but I was addressing the point regarding the Premier League/top clubs and how they manage the possibility of reduced revenues.

I have no desire to see the demise of any football club at any level but just feel that some are perhaps too quick to ignore failings in the lower leagues or blame the Premier League for not financing those failings and far too quick to point to the failings of the successful Premier League becuase they are not happy with the way the income from the success is distributed.

There are issues around sharing all the monies equally and reducing spending (mainly a salary cap) but obviously it would result in more competitive football but it is also just a romantic fantasy.

Apologies for all that b0110x Plumbs, I've just said the same thing again, I take your point and recognise the contribution of others in the pyramid, I am just not sure I value it as much as others, it doesn't matter how much I value the contribution in any case.


"Like you say too many are finding problems and not really coming up with practical solutions, where the starting off point is telling other people how to spend their money.

At one point on AVFTT some posters used to wag their finger at those calling for the O's to invest, but now it appears they are saying exactly the same thing to the PL which seems very hypocritical to me"

I do hope that you are not suggesting that Robbie is hypocritical ?
 
I take your point and recognise the contribution of others in the pyramid, I am just not sure I value it as much as others, it doesn't matter how much I value the contribution in any case.
👍

"Like you say too many are finding problems and not really coming up with practical solutions, where the starting off point is telling other people how to spend their money.

At one point on AVFTT some posters used to wag their finger at those calling for the O's to invest, but now it appears they are saying exactly the same thing to the PL which seems very hypocritical to me"

I do hope that you are not suggesting that Robbie is hypocritical ?
No specific criticism of anyone but for a while (eg work on the South Stand when Hendry was at BR), posters were rounded upon for asking the O's to invest.If you recall this prompted them to bring in additional help in the form of Belekon, where others like Pilley and Haythornwaite were ignored for the Latvian option.

The O's chose to also spend their money on developing the Travelodge but as was pointed out it was their money to spend, and at the time the moral argument of investing in the club first specifically was dismissed.

You know how I like consistency (smiley)
 
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