Incitement to kill

Lala said:
It’s inciting violence and that is against the law in the UK.
Innocent Israeli’s were also killed remember ? You can’t pick and choose who you accept the incitement of violence against in the UK, that’s the very essence of the law, and that it does not discriminate. IDF soldiers are people too you know, Jewish people shouldn’t be discriminated against in this way on UK soil.
So yeah, all bad and very definitely not a competition.
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Correct.

There are no winners here.

No one is calling for all Russian soldiers to be killed, even though we would want Ukraine to win the war.

What's the difference in that conflict?
 
It's all a crazy distraction IMO.
The only reason that Vylan could make the chant is because 'death' and the letter F actually rhyme. If the IDF was called the IDA for instance the chant would have to be - 'IDA -make them pay' or something. It all seems a bit stupid to me. Nobody has killed anybody as a result of this chanting or is likely to, mobs from Glastobury are not currently on their way to Israel etc. etc. This is dominating the news but we are happy to ignore something that looks very much like a genocide taking place right now that does very much involve the IDF.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It's all a crazy distraction IMO.
The only reason that Vylan could make the chant is because 'death' and the letter F actually rhyme. If the IDF was called the IDA for instance the chant would have to be - 'IDA -make them pay' or something. It all seems a bit stupid to me. Nobody has killed anybody as a result of this chanting or is likely to, mobs from Glastobury are not currently on their way to Israel etc. etc. This is dominating the news but we are happy to ignore something that looks very much like a genocide taking place right now that does very much involve the IDF.
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tbh, i find that post more of a deflection and a distraction from the issue. Bit like some others are doing and seemingly still trying to justify the two bands actions..

Well done Lala. A lot of sense in what you are saying.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It's all a crazy distraction IMO.
The only reason that Vylan could make the chant is because 'death' and the letter F actually rhyme. If the IDF was called the IDA for instance the chant would have to be - 'IDA -make them pay' or something. It all seems a bit stupid to me. Nobody has killed anybody as a result of this chanting or is likely to, mobs from Glastobury are not currently on their way to Israel etc. etc. This is dominating the news but we are happy to ignore something that looks very much like a genocide taking place right now that does very much involve the IDF.
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You can’t justify hate and incitement to violence just because the words rhyme, poor post 🙄
Yes we all know that the middle aged middle classes from Surrey who were at Glastonbury aren’t going to commit violence, but the laws are there as there are plenty of impressionable people who saw it and then start seeing it as a Jewish issue, and suddenly we’re getting Jews assaulted or worse in this country etc.
anyone with common sense understands why that chant was wrong, full stop. You’d think being an artist that makes a living using the power of words, they could have expressed themselves and their views without that.
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
You can’t justify hate and incitement to violence just because the words rhyme, poor post
Yes we all know that the middle aged middle classes from Surrey who were at Glastonbury aren’t going to commit violence, but the laws are there as there are plenty of impressionable people who saw it and then start seeing it as a Jewish issue, and suddenly we’re getting Jews assaulted or worse in this country etc.
anyone with common sense understands why that chant was wrong, full stop. You’d think being an artist that makes a living using the power of words, they could have expressed themselves and their views without that.
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I agree with most of that, in that they shouldn't have done it and it has now cost them a tour in the USA and possible legal action. In some ways to me it just looks like a distraction and a weapon to bash the BBC with. It is certainly not more newsworthy than what is actually happening in Gaza IMO, however our media would prefer to talk about this. Why?
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
I agree with most of that, in that they shouldn't have done it and it has now cost them a tour in the USA and possible legal action. In some ways to me it just looks like a distraction and a weapon to bash the BBC with. It is certainly not more newsworthy than what is actually happening in Gaza IMO, however our media would prefer to talk about this. Why?
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I agree that it also serves as a good distraction to political events etc, but it doesn't justify something that went out on air and was broadcast live. The BBC left themselves wide open by not dealing with it properly at the time.

I don't care which group or community you belong to or how justified you think you are, there is no room in our society for hate speech or inciting violence.
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
I agree that it also serves as a good distraction to political events etc, but it doesn't justify something that went out on air and was broadcast live. The BBC left themselves wide open by not dealing with it properly at the time.

I don't care which group or community you belong to or how justified you think you are, there is no room in our society for hate speech or inciting violence.
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👍👍👍
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I agree with most of that, in that they shouldn't have done it and it has now cost them a tour in the USA and possible legal action. In some ways to me it just looks like a distraction and a weapon to bash the BBC with. It is certainly not more newsworthy than what is actually happening in Gaza IMO, however our media would prefer to talk about this. Why?
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Any breaking news story is more newsworthy. And at the time that was the story of the day. Of course that will all settle and die down and then the focus will return to the events of Gaza. And of course let's not forget what is happening in Ukraine too. You didn't mention that.
 
Wizaard said:
Correct.

There are no winners here.

No one is calling for all Russian soldiers to be killed, even though we would want Ukraine to win the war.

What's the difference in that conflict?
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The Russians are not systematically and deliberately killing children. Don't get me wrong, I think Putin's actions in starting the war are repugnant and i want to see the Russians completely removed from Ukraine.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
The Russians are not systematically and deliberately killing children. Don't get me wrong, I think Putin's actions in starting the war are repugnant and i want to see the Russians completely removed from Ukraine.
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Your main argument in this thread is factually incorrect, and whatever you say you can’t pick and choose who you incite violence against, based on your opinions. Whether the subject of your hatred be Russian, Israeli or whatever, it makes no difference. You aren’t the lawmaker here.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
That is correct. However I can say - quite openly - that I would like to see X group slaughtered for what they've done, without fear of arrest.
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So why is Lucy Connolly in jail, well we all know why.

She posted a tweet in the heat of a terrible moment, said 'for all I care' went for a walk. Deleted it. Had apparently suffered from losing a child and got very upset by events happening to children. This was a sickening event thinking about what those little girls were experiencing and being attacked by a deranged lunatic.

Yet she, like many others were pressured by those who were supposed to be working for them, telling them to plead guilty, otherwise they'd be remanded for a long time and in the end in longer.

Personally, we can say stuff like what this guy said is wrong but I wouldn't be jailing people for it normally. I think people are entitled to react to it which is what's happened and therefore sunlight is the best disinfectant, hes been exposed.

However a precedent has been set so it'll be interesting to see what happens in this and other cases.
 
JJpool said:
So why is Lucy Connolly in jail, well we all know why.

She posted a tweet in the heat of a terrible moment, said 'for all I care' went for a walk. Deleted it. Had apparently suffered from losing a child and got very upset by events happening to children. This was a sickening event thinking about what those little girls were experiencing and being attacked by a deranged lunatic.

Yet she, like many others were pressured by those who were supposed to be working for them, telling them to plead guilty, otherwise they'd be remanded for a long time and in the end in longer.

Personally, we can say stuff like what this guy said is wrong but I wouldn't be jailing people for it normally. I think people are entitled to react to it which is what's happened and therefore sunlight is the best disinfectant, hes been exposed.

However a precedent has been set so it'll be interesting to see what happens in this and other cases.
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A precedent has been set, and to get away from the 2 Tier Kier analogy, these people now have to be prosecuted. Can’t have it both ways, as too many would like.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
The Russians are not systematically and deliberately killing children. Don't get me wrong, I think Putin's actions in starting the war are repugnant and i want to see the Russians completely removed from Ukraine.
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The Russians systematically and deliberately killed civilians in the early days of the war. There are plenty of reports of the atrocities that Russian soldiers have committed. They continue to target civilians with long range weapon strikes. Good job the Ukrainians are wiping out Russian scum in their thousands on the battlefield. Shame they have countless numbers to replace them with!
 
A quote I always liked in regards to comedy but can apply to any medium is “artistry is getting away with it”. Being able to tackle controversial topics and shine light on oppression and hypocrisy whilst still being entertaining.

This Bobby Vylan could have expressed support for Palestinians and condemnation of the IDF in a more nuanced way without breaking any laws. Only himself to blame really.
 
Lala said:
Your main argument in this thread is factually incorrect, and whatever you say you can’t pick and choose who you incite violence against, based on your opinions. Whether the subject of your hatred be Russian, Israeli or whatever, it makes no difference. You aren’t the lawmaker here.
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I can't see me being arrested any time soon. Inciting others to commit murder is a crime. Me saying that I believe someone or some people should be killed, isn't.
EdgeleyTangerine said:
The Russians systematically and deliberately killed civilians in the early days of the war. There are plenty of reports of the atrocities that Russian soldiers have committed. They continue to target civilians with long range weapon strikes. Good job the Ukrainians are wiping out Russian scum in their thousands on the battlefield. Shame they have countless numbers to replace them with!
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Yes, they have committed war crimes. I know that.
 
When the electorate point score over which incitement is worse, then it is no wonder the world is in such a mess. All incitement is wrong, whatever side of the political/religious spectrum it comes from. Considering the UK has had donkeys years of high exam results, the intelligence levels seems to have gone in a polar opposite direction.
 
Lala said:
You said in your initial response to me above that ‘calling for someone or the people of an organisation to be killed is allowed under freedom of speech.’ It is absolutely not and it is illegal. And you were wrong.
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I've reread my initial post and do agree that if a person is 'calling out' for others yo do the killing then it is incitement. However, if I stand on my soapbox at Hyde Park Corner a call out that I think these soldiers should be shot for their crimes I am not inciting others yo take up arms.
 
straightatthewall said:
As a matter of interest, what happens if I hear someone singing about 'shooting some Preston scum' next season? Should they be arrested?
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Personally, in this age, and with the precedence set, I wouldn’t sing it. Only takes one nutter to go and actually get a gun, and then everyone singing is complicit. We live in different times now.
 
One thing I'm taking from all of this.......

That Bob Vylan bloke will be the joker pick on a lot of people's dead pools lists' over the next couple of years.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I've reread my initial post and do agree that if a person is 'calling out' for others yo do the killing then it is incitement. However, if I stand on my soapbox at Hyde Park Corner a call out that I think these soldiers should be shot for their crimes I am not inciting others yo take up arms.
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mmmm...


 
basilexile said:
When the electorate point score over which incitement is worse, then it is no wonder the world is in such a mess. All incitement is wrong, whatever side of the political/religious spectrum it comes from. Considering the UK has had donkeys years of high exam results, the intelligence levels seems to have gone in a polar opposite direction.
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It's not about point scoring.

If soldiers are killing civilians, people will say "we must kill the soldiers". Understandably, I believe.

If civilians are sitting in a hostel and people are saying burn the hostel down, it's very different.

Is it that difficult to grasp that really?
 
voyeur said:
It's not about point scoring.

If soldiers are killing civilians, people will say "we must kill the soldiers". Understandably, I believe.

If civilians are sitting in a hostel and people are saying burn the hostel down, it's very different.

Is it that difficult to grasp that really?
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you were still saying one was more justifiable than the other. No it isn't. None are justifiable.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I've reread my initial post and do agree that if a person is 'calling out' for others yo do the killing then it is incitement. However, if I stand on my soapbox at Hyde Park Corner a call out that I think these soldiers should be shot for their crimes I am not inciting others yo take up arms.
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www.dailymail.co.uk

Christian preacher wins £10k Met payout after Speakers' Corner arrest

Hatun Tash was pulled away from the famous spot in London's Hyde Park by Metropolitan Police officers while being jeered and shouted at by a mob chanting 'Allahu Akbar'.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

So go on then give it a go or on the other hand just admit you were talking nonsense.
 
voyeur said:
One is an invading army killing civilians. The other is civilians. It's certainly different. Blatantly.
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It might be different but you were claiming one was more justifiable than the other. No it isn't. Oh and lest you forget the Hamas army invaded Israel on the 7 October killing civilians.
 
20togo said:
It might be different but you were claiming one was more justifiable than the other. No it isn't. Oh and lest you forget the Hamas army invaded Israel on the 7 October killing civilians.
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I do think that killing soldiers who are killing civilians is more justifiable than killing civilians. And international law supports that view. I think killing invading Russian soldiers is justifiable too. It's called self defence.
 
voyeur said:
I do think that killing soldiers who are killing civilians is more justifiable than killing civilians. And international law supports that view. I think killing invading Russian soldiers is justifiable too. It's called self defence.
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You aren’t at war with them though, so you can’t go around inciting violence against Russians, soldiers or otherwise, on UK soil.
 
Lala said:
You aren’t at war with them though, so you can’t go around inciting violence against Russians, soldiers or otherwise, on UK soil.
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No it's not my place, and not my nature, to invite violence. My main complaint here is that Israel is committing genocide, and people are angry that it's being allowed to continue. And supported by rich nations. 20s keeps using the Hamas attack as the justification, but the problems of Gaza go back further than that, the existence of Hamas is partly due to Israeli policy and support, and Gaza and West Bank are intolerable places for Palestinians to live. And the have nowhere else to go. It's a shocking situation they are in, and now Gaza is being flattened and women and kids murdered.

It would be good to hear a bit more condemnation of what is being done to them. It's one of the worst atrocities we have witnessed in our lifetimes.
 
voyeur said:
No it's not my place, and not my nature, to invite violence. My main complaint here is that Israel is committing genocide, and people are angry that it's being allowed to continue. And supported by rich nations. 20s keeps using the Hamas attack as the justification, but the problems of Gaza go back further than that, the existence of Hamas is partly due to Israeli policy and support, and Gaza and West Bank are intolerable places for Palestinians to live. And the have nowhere else to go. It's a shocking situation they are in, and now Gaza is being flattened and women and kids murdered.

It would be good to hear a bit more condemnation of what is being done to them. It's one of the worst atrocities we have witnessed in our lifetimes.
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Voy there has been plenty of condemnation of the killing of innocent children, and people. I would put a lot of money on nobody on here wanting to see that happen.
You’re crossing over 2 different debates though. Incitement to kill is a subject matter on it’s own.
 
voyeur said:
No it's not my place, and not my nature, to invite violence. My main complaint here is that Israel is committing genocide, and people are angry that it's being allowed to continue. And supported by rich nations. 20s keeps using the Hamas attack as the justification, but the problems of Gaza go back further than that, the existence of Hamas is partly due to Israeli policy and support, and Gaza and West Bank are intolerable places for Palestinians to live. And the have nowhere else to go. It's a shocking situation they are in, and now Gaza is being flattened and women and kids murdered.

It would be good to hear a bit more condemnation of what is being done to them. It's one of the worst atrocities we have witnessed in our lifetimes.
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no i'm not using the Hamas attack as the justification. I'm using the Hamas attack to point out your double standards or hypocrisy.
 
A lot.of people on both sides getting worked up . I bet the Israelis are really worried what Bob Vylan and Kneecap say.
 
Meanwhile, whilst avftt dances on the head of a pin debating incitement at a pop concert, the IDF genocide continues unabated. Oh shit!...we were looking the other way.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Meanwhile, whilst avftt dances on the head of a pin debating incitement at a pop concert, the IDF genocide continues unabated. Oh shit!...we were looking the other way.
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the problem is i don't think you ever know which way you are looking. I do agree with you on your laughing emoji comment though.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
You've been taken in by Hamas propaganda, please understand that.
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Condescending twonk. Or you've been taken in by Israeli propaganda, which gets a lot more leverage in our media.

Lala said:
Voy there has been plenty of condemnation of the killing of innocent children, and people. I would put a lot of money on nobody on here wanting to see that happen.
You’re crossing over 2 different debates though. Incitement to kill is a subject matter on it’s own.
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But it is happening and yet we get 20s and co seemingly more concerned about some daft chanting at Glastonbury. While the killing of civilians goes in unabated.Wring priorities.

Incitement to kill is what I'm debating, in the context of the killing that has led to incitement to kill.
 
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