Lavery and Yates- Is it just a lack of service?

Shiggy

Well-known member
For me, the season ends with question marks hanging over both of these players.

Lavery had a fantastic first half of the season for us but faded away as the season went on. I think his last goal was against Reading at home?

Yates never really got going all season from a goalscoring point of view. We all know there's much more to his game than goals, and he did find himself on the bench a lot, but when he got his chances he didn't really take them.

I don't think anyone will disagree that the service from the midfielders could be better at times and the strikers have suffered as a result, but I think there's more to it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both players. They work tirelessly off the ball, both are skilled in possession and link-up play, and when they get on a run can be dangerous finishers at this level.

However, I am worried that if we persist with the reliance on Madine as an outlet, then they will both suffer.

Of course, Critchley could change the approach going into next season, but considering the new contract given to Madine and the presence of Beesley, it wouldn't surprise me if we adopt the same style.

If we do, one of Lavery and Yates will find themselves on the bench. They both seem like the type of players who need a run in the side to get going, particularly Yates, so I struggle to see how the system benefits either of them in the long run.

So what happens now? Does Yates leave this summer? Do we change system more frequently? Or do we continue with the constant presence of a big man up front which results in one of Lavery and Yates being on the bench?

I think these are important questions because I think we have two seriously good forwards at our disposal in Yates and Lavery, but you could argue that we didn't get the best out of either of them this season.
 
I think the answer for me is a few areas;

1) Our formation is pretty limiting to be honest. We are relying on our wingers and full backs and our most attacking full backs are Gabriel and Garbutt and they both played less than 50% of our matches this season. We also only really have Anderson and Bowler who I would say are Championship standard. We also have a really good attacking central midfielder in Carey who is first of all new to this level and finding his feet and second of all, we don't play that formation and have a roaming attacking mid. Plus he got injured unfortunately.

2) Quality of players and options. Only Madine in our strike force has actually played at this level. Our other loanee in JJ just didn't work out. We should expect an Arsenal kid to make an impact and he didn't.

3) Consistent run of games. Yates and Lavery never felt like they had 4/5 games in a row. Where as Madine towards the end of the season was consistently picked.

If we can replace Bowler with 2/3 proper Championship standard wingers. Get a decent attacking ball playing midfielder, in the Brannigan mould. Utilise the loan market properly and mix up our formations a bit we could create more.

I also think, as a side note, Neil is on the whole pretty poor with his subs. Always left way way too late to make an impact.
 
I'll risk it and say that if Yates puts more atention and value to assisting than scoring he could be revamped as a pretty competent nº 10. I've been thinking it since november/december, he clearly hasn't been able to score as much as when we were in League one, he doesn't have that much raw pace, but he does know how to find spaces and has good technique and ball control, really good footwork and pressing, and he does take his time to pick a pass near or in the box (see Madine's goal against knobbers and 2nd Kenny goal against Luton in the play offs).
I see some problems like: I don't think Critch fancies nº 10s, and Jerry's confidence seems to be only based on goals (wich is good for every striker, but maybe he can contribute from another aspect of the game)
 
personally i think both Lavery and Jerry are better than their goal return last season suggests. both put in a huge amount of work off and on the ball, and when they come on as subs for each other they have often softened up a defence and they play slightly differently, so a hardworked defence has to suddenly adapt, and we got a few goals like this last year.

The way we played last season was i think more defensive than anyone would have anticipated. a back four and two defensive midfielders was i think overkill most of the season but saying that survival was probably the principal aim. There were games though when we were so good; Reading Fulham, Bournemouth to name but three that you wonder why we didnt go out the same way in every game, but what do i know.

In that defensive mould Kenny really didnt start getting fully involved as distributive player until the last third of the season. when he is played with a more attack minded partner i think we look like a better team, but i also think that kenny can do a lot more going forward than he did for most of last season.

service to strikers is definately a problem, but just taking chances that come our way is i think a bigger problem. i remember reading that we had one of the lowest chances to goal rate in the division last year, and possibly because we were playing more defensively when we broke we often didnt break in numbers so when the ball comes into the box there was often only one player to aim at. When you compare to 2010 where we used to break frequently and have 5 or six players heading forward and over powering defences with attacking options, its a big difference.

on that note we have a lot of pace in squad but we didnt really use it that much. Which leads me to one of my biggest (although still relatively small) gripes from last year is how static we often were particularly when we played both Gary Goals and Bowler. Madine isnt that mobile but he has a vision where he brings players into play in space that very few other players can do, but he does need to the ball to be played to him. Bowler as well is most effective when the ball is played straight to him, but in my opinion he doesnt work hard enough to get into the spaces that are available. he also often has two or even three players covering him, in that respect he could lead defences a merry dance by simply dragging them all over the park and doing the simple stuff, but a) i dont think that fits into the routines that Critch sets up and b) he almost always wants to do the turn and run. so when you have to players who are quite static (although Madine works hard to find space) it slows down attacks a bit.

Beesley looks a very different option to Madine in that he looks a lot more mobile, he might be getting on the end of a lot more breakaway attacks. its a quandry for Critch with i think 4 or 5 decent attacking players who last season didnt quite gel, hence the low conversion and lack of service but you would think that over the summer he will be looking at ways that that will be changed.

cant wait for the new season to start to be honest. even if we dont add a single new player i think there is enough in this squad to push on to at least a playoff spot there is a certian amount of quality in every single position
 
Jerry and Shayne are both better than what they showed and am still confident they both have another gear to kick into.

Genuinely think having no creative CM really hurt link up play and simply made it so that Shayne and Jerry had to live off scraps.

If we get that sorted this Summer I think we will see improvement with both.
 
personally i think both Lavery and Jerry are better than their goal return last season suggests. both put in a huge amount of work off and on the ball, and when they come on as subs for each other they have often softened up a defence and they play slightly differently, so a hardworked defence has to suddenly adapt, and we got a few goals like this last year.

The way we played last season was i think more defensive than anyone would have anticipated. a back four and two defensive midfielders was i think overkill most of the season but saying that survival was probably the principal aim. There were games though when we were so good; Reading Fulham, Bournemouth to name but three that you wonder why we didnt go out the same way in every game, but what do i know.

In that defensive mould Kenny really didnt start getting fully involved as distributive player until the last third of the season. when he is played with a more attack minded partner i think we look like a better team, but i also think that kenny can do a lot more going forward than he did for most of last season.

service to strikers is definately a problem, but just taking chances that come our way is i think a bigger problem. i remember reading that we had one of the lowest chances to goal rate in the division last year, and possibly because we were playing more defensively when we broke we often didnt break in numbers so when the ball comes into the box there was often only one player to aim at. When you compare to 2010 where we used to break frequently and have 5 or six players heading forward and over powering defences with attacking options, its a big difference.

on that note we have a lot of pace in squad but we didnt really use it that much. Which leads me to one of my biggest (although still relatively small) gripes from last year is how static we often were particularly when we played both Gary Goals and Bowler. Madine isnt that mobile but he has a vision where he brings players into play in space that very few other players can do, but he does need to the ball to be played to him. Bowler as well is most effective when the ball is played straight to him, but in my opinion he doesnt work hard enough to get into the spaces that are available. he also often has two or even three players covering him, in that respect he could lead defences a merry dance by simply dragging them all over the park and doing the simple stuff, but a) i dont think that fits into the routines that Critch sets up and b) he almost always wants to do the turn and run. so when you have to players who are quite static (although Madine works hard to find space) it slows down attacks a bit.

Beesley looks a very different option to Madine in that he looks a lot more mobile, he might be getting on the end of a lot more breakaway attacks. its a quandry for Critch with i think 4 or 5 decent attacking players who last season didnt quite gel, hence the low conversion and lack of service but you would think that over the summer he will be looking at ways that that will be changed.

cant wait for the new season to start to be honest. even if we dont add a single new player i think there is enough in this squad to push on to at least a playoff spot there is a certian amount of quality in every single position
Can't say I witnessed the vision from Madine to pick out team mates, don't think his team mates did either, zero assists for the goal machine last season.
 
Lack of a creative cm certainly didn't help any of our strikers and it also depends on what you mean by being good enough. Are they good enough for a bang average lower champ team who just wants to avoid relegation, the answer is yes. Are they good enough to be the first choice striker in a team that wants to push for play offs and promotion then the answer is no.
Coming off the bench for me or they could be a partner for a new striker coming in.
 
Lack of a creative cm certainly didn't help any of our strikers and it also depends on what you mean by being good enough. Are they good enough for a bang average lower champ team who just wants to avoid relegation, the answer is yes. Are they good enough to be the first choice striker in a team that wants to push for play offs and promotion then the answer is no.
Coming off the bench for me or they could be a partner for a new striker coming in.
Totally agree, got put down for saying it before but sorry don’t see either as a 20 goal plus striker in this division. Like them both but if we want to progress need better,problem is as it stands we have 4 strikers who might just keep us out of trouble but will not score enough to see us progress. I do not accept we can blame it on lack of creative midfield, we were not that bad in creating chances and some times strikers need to make it happen themselves
 
For me, the season ends with question marks hanging over both of these players.

Lavery had a fantastic first half of the season for us but faded away as the season went on. I think his last goal was against Reading at home?

Yates never really got going all season from a goalscoring point of view. We all know there's much more to his game than goals, and he did find himself on the bench a lot, but when he got his chances he didn't really take them.

I don't think anyone will disagree that the service from the midfielders could be better at times and the strikers have suffered as a result, but I think there's more to it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both players. They work tirelessly off the ball, both are skilled in possession and link-up play, and when they get on a run can be dangerous finishers at this level.

However, I am worried that if we persist with the reliance on Madine as an outlet, then they will both suffer.

Of course, Critchley could change the approach going into next season, but considering the new contract given to Madine and the presence of Beesley, it wouldn't surprise me if we adopt the same style.

If we do, one of Lavery and Yates will find themselves on the bench. They both seem like the type of players who need a run in the side to get going, particularly Yates, so I struggle to see how the system benefits either of them in the long run.

So what happens now? Does Yates leave this summer? Do we change system more frequently? Or do we continue with the constant presence of a big man up front which results in one of Lavery and Yates being on the bench?

I think these are important questions because I think we have two seriously good forwards at our disposal in Yates and Lavery, but you could argue that we didn't get the best out of either of them this season.
I think when the blender has been thoroughly cleaned and sterilised following the grisly merging of Madine and Beesley, I reckon we should stick Lavery and Yates in it. I'm not sure it would produce a smoothie though. Sorry.

Totally agree, got put down for saying it before but sorry don’t see either as a 20 goal plus striker in this division. Like them both but if we want to progress need better,problem is as it stands we have 4 strikers who might just keep us out of trouble but will not score enough to see us progress. I do not accept we can blame it on lack of creative midfield, we were not that bad in creating chances and some times strikers need to make it happen themselves
There were five 20 goal strikers in the division last season. And Lavery was amongst them until his injury, with 7 from 13 games I think, which really screwed up his season. He may or may not recover that form, but the ability is there. I also think Jerry is better than we saw last season. Things can change. They both had brilliant seasons the season before and lost their way last season. The level is a step up but you can't rule out a better season next time.
 
Last edited:
For me, the season ends with question marks hanging over both of these players.

Lavery had a fantastic first half of the season for us but faded away as the season went on. I think his last goal was against Reading at home?

Yates never really got going all season from a goalscoring point of view. We all know there's much more to his game than goals, and he did find himself on the bench a lot, but when he got his chances he didn't really take them.

I don't think anyone will disagree that the service from the midfielders could be better at times and the strikers have suffered as a result, but I think there's more to it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both players. They work tirelessly off the ball, both are skilled in possession and link-up play, and when they get on a run can be dangerous finishers at this level.

However, I am worried that if we persist with the reliance on Madine as an outlet, then they will both suffer.

Of course, Critchley could change the approach going into next season, but considering the new contract given to Madine and the presence of Beesley, it wouldn't surprise me if we adopt the same style.

If we do, one of Lavery and Yates will find themselves on the bench. They both seem like the type of players who need a run in the side to get going, particularly Yates, so I struggle to see how the system benefits either of them in the long run.

So what happens now? Does Yates leave this summer? Do we change system more frequently? Or do we continue with the constant presence of a big man up front which results in one of Lavery and Yates being on the bench?

I think these are important questions because I think we have two seriously good forwards at our disposal in Yates and Lavery, but you could argue that we didn't get the best out of either of them this season.
Yes.....
 
Lavery had a fantastic first half of the season for us but faded away as the season went on. I think his last goal was against Reading at home?
He didn't exactly fade away, he got a bad injury that kept him him out for a good while. And it also put an end to his long spell of scoring regularly that he brought over from Ireland with him. He may never get that back but I reckon he will, he's only 23 and he has a great energy and desire about him.
 
I'll risk it and say that if Yates puts more atention and value to assisting than scoring he could be revamped as a pretty competent nº 10. I've been thinking it since november/december, he clearly hasn't been able to score as much as when we were in League one, he doesn't have that much raw pace, but he does know how to find spaces and has good technique and ball control, really good footwork and pressing, and he does take his time to pick a pass near or in the box (see Madine's goal against knobbers and 2nd Kenny goal against Luton in the play offs).
I see some problems like: I don't think Critch fancies nº 10s, and Jerry's confidence seems to be only based on goals (wich is good for every striker, but maybe he can contribute from another aspect of the game)
I agree with that but Critch doesn't play his *actual* no10 players at 10 very often so I'm not sure he'd want to revamp Jerry to do that. He's a gorgeous player to watch when he comes Abit deeper, I agree.
 
There's been a lack of creativity but there's also a lack of confidence within the team. Lavery was a different player earlier on in the season.
 
Ok, firstly Jerry Yates is a very intelligent footballer who gets in some great positions and makes some very clever runs, however we currently don’t have a midfielder who thinks on the same lines. Sonny Carey can be that player along with another, like Brannigan if we sign him. Shayne Lavery is a different kind of player. I believe he is a more instinctive player, a goal poacher type, someone who thrives in the six yard box. Both of these players would score plenty more goals with balls played into the right areas. I would like to see these two play as part of a front three but like I said we need clever midfielders to make this work .
 
All players, especially strikers, need to play regularly
So play them both, possibly with Madine also
With those 2 running the defenders ragged and Madine in the middle we will have a great attack
Get the ball quicker to the midfield, fullbacks running down the wings
Automatic promotion guaranteed by Christmas
Lets get back to being entertainers
 
Ok, firstly Jerry Yates is a very intelligent footballer who gets in some great positions and makes some very clever runs, however we currently don’t have a midfielder who thinks on the same lines. Sonny Carey can be that player along with another, like Brannigan if we sign him. Shayne Lavery is a different kind of player. I believe he is a more instinctive player, a goal poacher type, someone who thrives in the six yard box. Both of these players would score plenty more goals with balls played into the right areas. I would like to see these two play as part of a front three but like I said we need clever midfielders to make this work .
⬆️ spot on
 
I believe Beesley could be an important player for us next season.
Much more mobile than Madine, and seemingly having a greater amount of skill, he will release both Yates's and Lavery's potential.
If we can sign a more positive midfielder , I would be excited for our prospects next season with that type of lineup.
 
I really don’t know if either of these two have what it takes to be successful in the Championship. Neither has a rasping shot from distance, neither seem to be able to outstrip most defenders, neither seem to pop up in the right place at the right time. Yates does not challenge for the high balls hardly. That said their pressing & work rate cannot be disputed. Lavery seems to get the opportunity to go & get a shot away then somehow get the ball stuck under his feet & get tackled. Where Yates scored after twisting & turning/step overs etc (in league 1) I believe you need to be quicker against better defenders & he’s not really done that yet. Perhaps a sustained run of games could benefit both players. There’s no doubt better service will be beneficial for everyone. Partnerships are built up over time & the swapping & changing unless caused by injuries doesn’t help. I really don’t think all last season NC really knew what our best team was, we showed glimpses of some great play (Blackburn first half for example) I’m certainly not writing either of them off. As far as last season is concerned we utilised big Gaz as the forward outlet & we were the most successful promoted side, so a good job done there really. Now comes probably the sterner challenge of trying to play football. I’m looking forward to seeing how we can progress.
 
A number of things from me:

1. Beesley isn't the finished article and would benefit from a loan to a L1 club.
2. Yates and Lavery don't complement each other and I don't think can be in the side together. Wouldn't lose any sleep if one of them were sold.
3. Agree that a quality creative midfielder (e.g Brannigan) might improve the goals tally up-front, although we might be pleasantly surprised by Carey and/or Virtue next season.
4. We need a proven striker from L1 level at least, and also a up and coming young Prem striker in the loan market.
5. Bring in a promising winger such as Rogers from Man City to replace Bowler, with money from the sale funding the above (amongst other things no doubt).
 
For me, the season ends with question marks hanging over both of these players.

Lavery had a fantastic first half of the season for us but faded away as the season went on. I think his last goal was against Reading at home?

Yates never really got going all season from a goalscoring point of view. We all know there's much more to his game than goals, and he did find himself on the bench a lot, but when he got his chances he didn't really take them.

I don't think anyone will disagree that the service from the midfielders could be better at times and the strikers have suffered as a result, but I think there's more to it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both players. They work tirelessly off the ball, both are skilled in possession and link-up play, and when they get on a run can be dangerous finishers at this level.

However, I am worried that if we persist with the reliance on Madine as an outlet, then they will both suffer.

Of course, Critchley could change the approach going into next season, but considering the new contract given to Madine and the presence of Beesley, it wouldn't surprise me if we adopt the same style.

If we do, one of Lavery and Yates will find themselves on the bench. They both seem like the type of players who need a run in the side to get going, particularly Yates, so I struggle to see how the system benefits either of them in the long run.

So what happens now? Does Yates leave this summer? Do we change system more frequently? Or do we continue with the constant presence of a big man up front which results in one of Lavery and Yates being on the bench?

I think these are important questions because I think we have two seriously good forwards at our disposal in Yates and Lavery, but you could argue that we didn't get the best out of either of them this season.
I think Yates may leave this summer. He’s just not seemed the player he was in League One, which is a real shame.

Yates is a massive confidence player it seems. As you say, he may struggle to get a run in the team for a substantial amount of time which may be detrimental to his confidence.

Whether he stays or leaves, he was a great player for us in that League One campaign and an even better person to have around the club in terms of humour and relationship with the fans.

Let’s hope we can “go on the piss” with him before if he leaves, if his future lies elsewhere.
 
We often play 4 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders. Would like to see something like
YATES Beesley Lavery
Keshi

Get Keshi and Yates or Keshi and Lavery to switch between roles during the game.
 
I'll risk it and say that if Yates puts more atention and value to assisting than scoring he could be revamped as a pretty competent nº 10. I've been thinking it since november/december, he clearly hasn't been able to score as much as when we were in League one, he doesn't have that much raw pace, but he does know how to find spaces and has good technique and ball control, really good footwork and pressing, and he does take his time to pick a pass near or in the box (see Madine's goal against knobbers and 2nd Kenny goal against Luton in the play offs).
I see some problems like: I don't think Critch fancies nº 10s, and Jerry's confidence seems to be only based on goals (wich is good for every striker, but maybe he can contribute from another aspect of the game)
Yeah, he’s got great feet hasn’t he and good general awareness which is why he played so well partnered with Madine who is also in possession of those attributes plus physical presence.
 
I would like to see these two play as part of a front three but like I said we need clever midfielders to make this work .
the 3rd striker can't be immobile as he just takes space away from the other 2. A 3 of Y,L and B would be interesting to see pre-season. Based on their mobility and workrate, they'd win a lot of ball direct and indirect chasing down.
 
Have said all season, and this could be down to the personnel available, but we have been two dimensional all season - get the ball out wide or lump it up to Madine - Lavery and Yates are great when they get a ball passes on the ball just in front of them and sadly our midfield rarely find this ball.
A ball winning midfielder who can slot the ball forwards is what we need .. Stewart would be the player but he is too injury prone.
 
Back
Top