Mask wearing...

Some soft arses around, moaning about wearing a mask again, it's really not a big deal.
If there's a chance it prevents further spread of Covid and helps stop any further lockdowns, I'm in.
Even If it only stops people spluttering everywhere with a seasonal cold, they're worth wearing, and I'm still in.
 
Hang on, you give up when evidence is presented?

People always ask for real world evidence.

You have it there in Scotland and Wales and it made no difference at all.

Here's a scientific review into the efficacy of wearing facemasks. The compiling all the evidence available on facemasks effect on COVID and reducing R:


"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)."

Another study done more recently suggesting mask wearing linked to a 53% cut in transmission:

 
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Some soft arses around, moaning about wearing a mask again, it's really not a big deal.
If there's a chance it prevents further spread of Covid and helps stop any further lockdowns, I'm in.
Even If it only stops people spluttering everywhere with a seasonal cold, they're worth wearing, and I'm still in.
Masks for life then?

To stop you getting a cold? Soft arses eh 😂
 
Here's a scientific review into the efficacy of wearing facemasks. The compiling all the evidence available on facemasks effect on COVID and reducing R:


"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)."

Another study done more recently suggesting mask wearing linked to a 53% cut in transmission:

"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)."

Another study done more recently suggesting mask wearing linked to a 53% cut in transmission:
 
"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)."

Another study done more recently suggesting mask wearing linked to a 53% cut in transmission:
Knick-pick all you want, but you won't find scientiifically comprehensive review of studies that suggest the opposite, nevermind prove. I'm going to listen to people who are qualified to study, and are peer reviewed, than a random on avftt.

Whether you agree or not with the evidence is irrelevant, the task was to produce the evidence, which is there. Further from the second study:

"Results from more than 30 studies from around the world were analysed in detail, showing a statistically significant 53% reduction in the incidence of Covid with mask wearing and a 25% reduction with physical distancing."

The numbers are there, and are clearly suggesting something. Now if you have an issue that scientists are more careful with their vocabulary, and will say "suggest", that's on you, it doesn't change the fact that it's still evidence.
 
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T
"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)."

Another study done more recently suggesting mask wearing linked to a 53% cut in transmission:
Ormergod. This is normal use of hedging. All academic writing uses this strategy to protect itself from accusations of making blanket statements. It's nothing out of the ordinary.
 
While things are currently as uncertain as they are, I'm happy to wear one. Not sure why anyone has a real issue with it.
I think the majority of people are ok with wearing a mask. It's the other things which are becoming a bit tiresome. And by far the worst, the cancer situation as highlighted in the previous post.
 
Here's a scientific review into the efficacy of wearing facemasks. The compiling all the evidence available on facemasks effect on COVID and reducing R:


"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)."

Another study done more recently suggesting mask wearing linked to a 53% cut in transmission:


There is evidence both ways, its very hard to measure independent of other variables...

And yet it says...

'Cochrane (7) and the World Health Organization (8) both point out that, for population health measures, we should not generally expect to be able to find controlled trials, due to logistical and ethical reasons, and should therefore instead seek a wider evidence base'

Also

'Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive. Since there are no RCTs, only one observational trial, and unclear evidence from other respiratory illnesses, we will need to look at a wider body of evidence.'


The best controlled trial I've seen was this one.

'Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.'


Also...


There's a few types of thing to measure. If your a mask wearer that doesn't have covid and walk into room with tiny covid particles in the air, the air sucked in around or through your mask is going to be infected.

If you have covid then you will be breathing it out in tiny particles, which will escape the masks or go through it. The things it will stop more are coughs and sneezes etc, as they will be much bigger particles. But seeing as a cough is so infrequent compared to breathing, breathing is a bigger contributer. Speaking actually gets singled out as the bigger contributer.

I did find this interesting though from your link..

"The ability of masks to filter particles depends on the particle size and trajectory, with smaller floating aerosols more challenging to filter than larger particles with momentum (66). Because speech produces more particles containing the SARS-CoV-2 virus, and because transmission of SARS-CoV-2 without symptoms is associated with URT shedding, where particles formed through vocalization are likely to contain the virus, we should be particularly cognizant of the role of speech particles in transmission (59). Speech particles lose their momentum and become much smaller shortly after ejection, which is likely to make them easier to filter by source control (as egress at the wearer) than by PPE (at ingress to an susceptible person). We will look at source control and PPE efficacy in turn."

So masks best chance are stopping it at source, rather than once its in a room and you walk in with mask on, you will prob still get it. However as we learn the chances of stopping it at source can be slim with the sizes of particles.

It mentioned that a test conducted were based on particles being micrometers not nanometres. Hence the below.


'He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 5,000 times the size of viral Covid particles.

"The small sizes are not easily understood but an imperfect analogy would be to imagine marbles fired at builders' scaffolding, some might hit a pole and rebound, but obviously most will fly through," he told The Telegraph.'

From another source...

"In addition to mechanistic information, researchers have also evaluated the size and content characteristics of the SARS-CoV-2 particles. Upon analysis of negative-stained SARS-CoV-2 articles by electron microscopy, different researchers have had varying results, but the diameter of the virus has been found to range between 50 nm to 140 nm.

In addition to measuring the spherical size of the virus particle, it has also been confirmed that the length of the size tumors surrounding the outermost surface of SARS-CoV-2 can vary in length from 9 to 12 nm."

From the study you posted again.

"There are currently no studies that measure the impact of any kind of mask on the amount of infectious SARS-CoV-2 particles from human actions. Other infections, however, have been studied. One of the most relevant papers (67) is one that compares the efficacy of surgical masks for source control for seasonal coronaviruses (NL63, OC43, 229E, and HKU1), influenza, and rhinovirus. With 10 participants, the masks were effective at blocking coronavirus particles of all sizes for every subject. However, masks were far less effective at blocking rhinovirus particles of any size, or of blocking small influenza particles. The results suggest that masks may have a significant role in source control for the current coronavirus outbreak. The study did not use COVID-19 patients, and it is not yet known whether SARS-CoV-2 behaves the same as these seasonal coronaviruses, which are of the same family."

Although it blocks coronavirus of the same family it didn't block the smaller influenza particles, given we know covid is so small its likely a similar result.

Surgical masks can limit the release of droplets larger them 5 um or 5000 nanometres. Cloth will be worse.

Hence the marbles fired at scaffolding analogy.

We also have the fact the Scotland and Wales used masks to no noticeable gain.

At the end of the day we are meant to be returning to normality not bringing out mask mandates etc each time there's a mutation.

The truth remains that the government have done it to be seen to be doing something to cover thier backs, just incase.
 
The best controlled trial I've seen was this one.

'Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.'

Landmark Danish study finds no significant effect for facemask wearers | The Spectator
Also...


Randomized controlled trial is the highest quality evidence, but that one wasn't a good one.


As to the rest I'll just copy+paste my earlier reply here.

That study was debunked here: https://www.covidfaq.co/Claim-A-Danish-study-shows-masks-don-t-work-e2bb579390ea4fed9802d8b2106ad7cd

The study only looked at benefits to mask wearer, didn't look at effects on spreading to others and was too small to draw any meaningful conclusions unless masks prevented at least 50% of infections.
 
There is evidence both ways, its very hard to measure independent of other variables...

And yet it says...

'Cochrane (7) and the World Health Organization (8) both point out that, for population health measures, we should not generally expect to be able to find controlled trials, due to logistical and ethical reasons, and should therefore instead seek a wider evidence base'

Also

'Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive. Since there are no RCTs, only one observational trial, and unclear evidence from other respiratory illnesses, we will need to look at a wider body of evidence.'


The best controlled trial I've seen was this one.

'Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.'


Also...


There's a few types of thing to measure. If your a mask wearer that doesn't have covid and walk into room with tiny covid particles in the air, the air sucked in around or through your mask is going to be infected.

If you have covid then you will be breathing it out in tiny particles, which will escape the masks or go through it. The things it will stop more are coughs and sneezes etc, as they will be much bigger particles. But seeing as a cough is so infrequent compared to breathing, breathing is a bigger contributer. Speaking actually gets singled out as the bigger contributer.

I did find this interesting though from your link..

"The ability of masks to filter particles depends on the particle size and trajectory, with smaller floating aerosols more challenging to filter than larger particles with momentum (66). Because speech produces more particles containing the SARS-CoV-2 virus, and because transmission of SARS-CoV-2 without symptoms is associated with URT shedding, where particles formed through vocalization are likely to contain the virus, we should be particularly cognizant of the role of speech particles in transmission (59). Speech particles lose their momentum and become much smaller shortly after ejection, which is likely to make them easier to filter by source control (as egress at the wearer) than by PPE (at ingress to an susceptible person). We will look at source control and PPE efficacy in turn."

So masks best chance are stopping it at source, rather than once its in a room and you walk in with mask on, you will prob still get it. However as we learn the chances of stopping it at source can be slim with the sizes of particles.

It mentioned that a test conducted were based on particles being micrometers not nanometres. Hence the below.


'He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 5,000 times the size of viral Covid particles.

"The small sizes are not easily understood but an imperfect analogy would be to imagine marbles fired at builders' scaffolding, some might hit a pole and rebound, but obviously most will fly through," he told The Telegraph.'

From another source...

"In addition to mechanistic information, researchers have also evaluated the size and content characteristics of the SARS-CoV-2 particles. Upon analysis of negative-stained SARS-CoV-2 articles by electron microscopy, different researchers have had varying results, but the diameter of the virus has been found to range between 50 nm to 140 nm.

In addition to measuring the spherical size of the virus particle, it has also been confirmed that the length of the size tumors surrounding the outermost surface of SARS-CoV-2 can vary in length from 9 to 12 nm."

From the study you posted again.

"There are currently no studies that measure the impact of any kind of mask on the amount of infectious SARS-CoV-2 particles from human actions. Other infections, however, have been studied. One of the most relevant papers (67) is one that compares the efficacy of surgical masks for source control for seasonal coronaviruses (NL63, OC43, 229E, and HKU1), influenza, and rhinovirus. With 10 participants, the masks were effective at blocking coronavirus particles of all sizes for every subject. However, masks were far less effective at blocking rhinovirus particles of any size, or of blocking small influenza particles. The results suggest that masks may have a significant role in source control for the current coronavirus outbreak. The study did not use COVID-19 patients, and it is not yet known whether SARS-CoV-2 behaves the same as these seasonal coronaviruses, which are of the same family."

Although it blocks coronavirus of the same family it didn't block the smaller influenza particles, given we know covid is so small its likely a similar result.

Surgical masks can limit the release of droplets larger them 5 um or 5000 nanometres. Cloth will be worse.

Hence the marbles fired at scaffolding analogy.

We also have the fact the Scotland and Wales used masks to no noticeable gain.

At the end of the day we are meant to be returning to normality not bringing out mask mandates etc each time there's a mutation.

The truth remains that the government have done it to be seen to be doing something to cover thier backs, just incase.

Oh for God’s sake just take it on the chin 😷
 
Oh for God’s sake just take it on the chin 😷
Take what on the chin? I'm presenting the evidence, which there is conflicting evidence.

It's why even the scientists have flip flopped.

I wear masks when I have to, am just pointing out the pointless nature of this action to what the south Africans have told us is a milder strain.
 
Randomized controlled trial is the highest quality evidence, but that one wasn't a good one.


As to the rest I'll just copy+paste my earlier reply here.

That study was debunked here: https://www.covidfaq.co/Claim-A-Danish-study-shows-masks-don-t-work-e2bb579390ea4fed9802d8b2106ad7cd

The study only looked at benefits to mask wearer, didn't look at effects on spreading to others and was too small to draw any meaningful conclusions unless masks prevented at least 50% of infections.
Thats not debunking it, just because it focuses on protection of the user, it's still a useful study.

As said no study has done a proper randomised trial as its unethical to risk someone having covis or getting it for a trail. So most have used different diseases, lab tests etc.

Its quite relevant actually as the majority of us don't have covid and would be wearing a mask.

So the fact that it didn't differ much to the group without is interesting.

4000 is too small? As with any study you do what you can and analyse the numbers. The bigger it gets the harder it is to control to a good standard.

Again we had Scotland and Wales showing similar results, despite their masks.

There is conflicting evidence out there.
 
Thats not debunking it, just because it focuses on protection of the user, it's still a useful study.

As said no study has done a proper randomised trial as its unethical to risk someone having covis or getting it for a trail. So most have used different diseases, lab tests etc.

Its quite relevant actually as the majority of us don't have covid and would be wearing a mask.

So the fact that it didn't differ much to the group without is interesting.

4000 is too small? As with any study you do what you can and analyse the numbers. The bigger it gets the harder it is to control to a good standard.

Again we had Scotland and Wales showing similar results, despite their masks.

There is conflicting evidence out there.

Yes and we know that wearing a mask will not cause us any harm, and is safe for the vast majority of us, and may reduce infection over 50 per cent in some situations.
OK it may not do any good and the evidence may be unclear, but the balance of risk is against your argument, so why kick up such a fuss?

Still a bit too early to call the new variant less dangerous?
 
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Yes and we know that wearing a mask will not cause us any harm, and is safe for the vast majority of us, and may reduce infection over 50 per cent in some situations.
OK it may not do any good and the evidence may be unclear, but the balance of risk is against your argument, so why kick up such a fuss?

Still a bit too early to call the new variant less dangerous?

No but was probably unnecessary.

Lets hope they don't extend any type of restrictions.

I guess I'm a glass half full type of guy, it'll all be fine 👍
 
4000 is too small? As with any study you do what you can and analyse the numbers. The bigger it gets the harder it is to control to a good standard.

Complete nonsense, the more the participants, the better the evidence, the vaccine trials had tens if not hundreds of thousands of them.

Here's the problem: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%)................Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.

What says is that because the study covered one month in Denmark, less than 100 people caught the virus, which is far too few to draw any reasonable conclusions from because the confidence interval (what "statistically significant" means) is so wide as to cover almost all plausible outcomes.
 
Go Catholic mate, do what the fuck you like all your life, get the last rites, sorted
I was going to do the full fairy tale sweep and invite clerics from Juddaism, Islam and Christianity to my death bed.

If I then get it wrong and turn into a butterfly, I’ll know they were wrong and that Buda had it bang on!
 
Complete nonsense, the more the participants, the better the evidence, the vaccine trials had tens if not hundreds of thousands of them.

Here's the problem: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%)................Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.

What says is that because the study covered one month in Denmark, less than 100 people caught the virus, which is far too few to draw any reasonable conclusions from because the confidence interval (what "statistically significant" means) is so wide as to cover almost all plausible outcomes.
It's the best they could do at the time. Of course more is better from a data point of view but harder to ensure all wear masks correctly etc.

As said already Scotland and Wales didn't see any difference which you dismissed and as said already people want personal responsibility now.

We're meant to be living with this not going back to restrictions every time a variant comes out without proof it's worth panicking over.
 
Tesco has joined the co-op, Aldi and Lidl in not enforcing the wearing of masks. Good, businesses fighting back.
So isn't it law now to wear one? Even if a place say it's ok, what happens there?

As if another customer complained say, but the shop said you don't have to but the law says you do... who wins?
 
The paper masks do bugger all
Correct they have gone from banging the drum protecting you(which they don't) to they protect others to justify wearing them.

My wife(The Vic) work colleagues have caught the virus whilst wearing them, only proper Fit masks work which they don't wear in general.
 
So isn't it law now to wear one? Even if a place say it's ok, what happens there?

As if another customer complained say, but the shop said you don't have to but the law says you do... who wins?
No idea,I suppose eventually someone like Lytham will just phone the police, loves a bit of cancel culture does Lytham.
 
If you want to wear one wear one, your safe ? If you don’t then don’t, it’s called a choice. Sorry but I don’t like the government telling me I HAVE to wear a ** mask that may or may not depending on which science you choose to believe will protect me or someone else. I’m triple jabbed and i choose to not wear one. If I get covid then So be it. As far as I know I haven’t had it yet and if we believe the science after three jabs I probably shouldn’t get it.
 
The doctor in South Africa who originally alerted about this omnicrom variant apparently works in an area where there are higher vaccination rates and she saw relatively mild symptoms in people.

However, doctors in Soweto say it is hitting younger (in their 20's), unvaccinated people in South Africa really hard.

Think that message needs relaying in the interests of balance. Sounds like being unvaccinated this time round might be a bigger risk than before.
 
If you want to wear one wear one, your safe ? If you don’t then don’t, it’s called a choice. Sorry but I don’t like the government telling me I HAVE to wear a ** mask that may or may not depending on which science you choose to believe will protect me or someone else. I’m triple jabbed and i choose to not wear one. If I get covid then So be it. As far as I know I haven’t had it yet and if we believe the science after three jabs I probably shouldn’t get it.
Get a jab, wear a mask, try to consider your interactions with others, wash your hands well, sneeze into your elbow rather than your hands. All little things that help slow the spread and reduce the chances of catching it or having a case bad enough to require hospital treatment. Keep people out of hospital for ‘minor’ things and you have more capacity to deal with ‘real’ illnesses.

And one thing I’ll undoubtedly acknowledge, the inconsistencies around mask rules and the utter nonsense around some of them (shops but not pubs, off when sitting down/on when standing up) don’t help in getting compliance from those of us with even a modicum of intelligence.
 
Get a jab, wear a mask, try to consider your interactions with others, wash your hands well, sneeze into your elbow rather than your hands. All little things that help slow the spread and reduce the chances of catching it or having a case bad enough to require hospital treatment. Keep people out of hospital for ‘minor’ things and you have more capacity to deal with ‘real’ illnesses.

And one thing I’ll undoubtedly acknowledge, the inconsistencies around mask rules and the utter nonsense around some of them (shops but not pubs, off when sitting down/on when standing up) don’t help in getting compliance from those of us with even a modicum of intelligence.
So you agree, there’s absolutely no logic here. I’m still waiting for someone to post some actual factual information on this new variant we’re all of a sudden petrified of ? Nobody has because nobody really knows, we have blindly followed the medias coverage.
 
Some soft arses around, moaning about wearing a mask again, it's really not a big deal.
If there's a chance it prevents further spread of Covid and helps stop any further lockdowns, I'm in.
Even If it only stops people spluttering everywhere with a seasonal cold, they're worth wearing, and I'm still in.
They're not soft arses Junior, they're literally just like Nelson Mandela and his fight against oppression.
 
No idea,I suppose eventually someone like Lytham will just phone the police, loves a bit of cancel culture does Lytham.
Actually I don't.

You do love to throw an accusation around though don't you pal? When are you going to grow up and be an adult about things instead of a paranoid chippy child who thinks the modern world is out to get you?
 
So you agree, there’s absolutely no logic here. I’m still waiting for someone to post some actual factual information on this new variant we’re all of a sudden petrified of ? Nobody has because nobody really knows, we have blindly followed the medias coverage.
See post #192 - info from different doctors in South Africa.
 
Here's just one of the costs of restrictions even though they are minor and the narrative the media put out.

Theres been a lot of cancellations and will be a lot less people shopping, eating out etc.


Chief executive Brent Hudson said some of its 80-strong workforce were "becoming worried" about the new variant, so the postponement made sense because Plextek wanted to have "as well-attended an event as possible".
"The venue said that if we postponed any closer to 10 December than now, we would be liable for the full cost," he added.
"We felt there is a reasonable chance the government will ban such gatherings between now and 10 December and are unwilling to write off the cost."

Having been here before people know it never follows whats promised, 3 weeks to flatten the curve anyone...

The economic damage on already badly hit business is not good.
 
So you agree, there’s absolutely no logic here. I’m still waiting for someone to post some actual factual information on this new variant we’re all of a sudden petrified of ? Nobody has because nobody really knows, we have blindly followed the medias coverage.
I agree that there's some rules around masks that make no sense. But in the part of my post that you either didn't read, didn't understand or chose to ignore, I also make the case for why they have a role. If I get on a commuter train or tube and its packed, I'll wear a mask out of consideration for everyone else on there. Just as in the past I'd do my best to not cough or sneeze 'in the open'. If the train carriage is empty, then I'll leave the mask off for my own comfort.

I neither agree or disagree with your previously stated view that you don't like being told you HAVE to wear one. It's your choice, but you do sound like a teenager having a paddy rather than a grown up. If you don't want to wear one because you don't want to wear one, just say so.
 
It's the best they could do at the time. Of course more is better from a data point of view but harder to ensure all wear masks correctly etc.

It's useless, it says that the effects of masks are between -50% or +25% and even that is only reasonable confidence, it tells us nothing that we couldn't easily guess at anyway.

Controlling for mask wearing is irrelevant BTW, since in the real world there is no such control either, and I'm sure the study wasn't following all the participants around to ensure that they were wearing the masks.


As said already Scotland and Wales didn't see any difference which you dismissed and as said already people want personal responsibility now.

We're meant to be living with this not going back to restrictions every time a variant comes out without proof it's worth panicking over.

There's so many confounding variables with Scotland/Wales that it's not evidence at all.

Personally my guess at the effect is somewhere between 10% - 20% reduction in overall transmission, probably trending towards the lower end of the spectrum, but that is just a guess and let's not pretend that either of us know better than the experts.

As to the wider policy issues, this new variant certainly has the experts spooked, we're not out of the woods with the old one either, personally I wouldn't have bothered with making masks a legal requirement but as far as I'm concerned it's a minor issue and I'm not going to say the call is right or wrong either way.
 
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