Michael Gove says

Recidivist3

Recidivist3

Well-known member
the EU's behaviour suggested it was not "serious" about an agreement although he hoped one was still possible.

Given previous claims by the govt and quite a few on here that they need us more / just as much as we need them, then why would this be the case?
 
Which if you haven’t seen, all three episodes are now on the official YouTube site.

Very worth a watch even if it’s just for Dominic Cummings 😂😂😂😂😂
 
Recidivist3 said:
the EU's behaviour suggested it was not "serious" about an agreement although he hoped one was still possible.

Given previous claims by the govt and quite a few on here that they need us more / just as much as we need them, then why would this be the case?
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Ask Macron. It seems he's the latest in an infamous list of French Presidents who have treated undermining the UK as a gallic national sport.
 
Yeah the French created this balls up, didn't they.

It wasnt the good old British guys, they are never the politicians that abuse their own populace are they.

It was the current government that lied about the advantages of Brexit, lied that we had a strong position, lied that it would be an easy negotiation, lied that we would only gain.

But somehow we have to rebirth the sneaky devious Frenchman stereotype to make sure we don't blame the real deceitful ones.
 
I would say that the true position is nearer to that expressed in the Daily Telegraph by former MEP Daniel Hannan who said that by sticking to a number of deliberately absurd positions, including demanding British fish as a some kind of bizarre leaving fee, Brussels has effectively collapsed the talks. He said that the EU was sticking to the French line on fishing despite suspicions Emmanuel Macron was looking for an excuse to sabotage the talks to save face with his angry trawlermen. The French position that UK should be treated as a 'third country' in every other respect, but should remain fully subject to the Common Fisheries Policy is seen as preposterous by every neutral observer and by most of the EU. With elections in France in 2022 Macron is desperately clinging on to his promises to French trawlermen that they will retain their existing quotas. Let's see how they feel about having zero access to UK waters.
 
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I guess I was hoping for more support for Gove’s position from those on here who have been so supportive of the govt position on Brexit in the past. As much as I disagree with TNO, at least he is prepared to stand up for his ‘questionable’ beliefs

Moreso than Gove it would seem
 
tangerinenotorange said:
I would say that the true position is nearer to that expressed in the Daily Telegraph by former MEP Daniel Hannan who said that by sticking to a number of deliberately absurd positions, including demanding British fish as a some kind of bizarre leaving fee, Brussels has effectively collapsed the talks. He said that the EU was sticking to the French line on fishing despite suspicions Emmanuel Macron was looking for an excuse to sabotage the talks to save face with his angry trawlermen. The French position that UK should be treated as a 'third country' in every other respect, but should remain fully subject to the Common Fisheries Policy is seen as preposterous by every neutral observer and by most of the EU. With elections in France in 2022 Macron is desperately clinging on to his promises to French trawlermen that they will retain their existing quotas. Let's see how they feel about having zero access to UK waters.
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Absolutely correct. There seems little doubt that Macron is the main obstacle in reaching a trade deal and I think we know the position of the French trawlermen. Whereas the Brits moan for a while and then get on with things, the French like to go to war. What is likely to be a bigger problem for the UK than any threat from the EU is the inevitability of French trawlers illegally blockading channel ports and preventing passenger/freight ships from landing. That will cause a backlog of wagons in the UK and with the inevitable non-cooperation of the French government will be chaotic. This tactic has been used before by the French and has resulted in disruption as well as serious damage to perishable goods.
 
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tommytwojags said:
Absolutely correct. There seems little doubt that Macron is the main obstacle in reaching a trade deal and I think we know the position of the French trawlermen. Whereas the Brits moan for a while and then get on with things, the French like to go to war. What is likely to be a bigger problem for the UK than any threat from the EU is the inevitability of French trawlers illegally blockading channel ports and preventing passenger/freight ships from landing. That will cause a backlog of wagons in the UK and with the inevitable non-cooperation of the French government will be chaotic. This tactic has been used before by the French and has resulted in disruption as well as serious damage to perishable goods.
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Get your excuses in early for when Kent becomes one vast lorry park.
 
tommytwojags said:
What excuses? The anticipated gridlock in Dover was only ever going to be due to deliberate hold-ups by French officials or trawlermen. What else do you think the new lorry parks are for?
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But, but, but, the Eu will be falling over themselves to get a deal

With Anglo French history, if the Brexiteers didn't factor in the French attitude, they were even more incompetent than they have proven to be.
 
Don't worry guys, the German car industry will be along in a minute to save the deal.*

* 'we hold all the cards' 'the easiest deal in history', etc, etc
 
tommytwojags said:
What excuses? The anticipated gridlock in Dover was only ever going to be due to deliberate hold-ups by French officials or trawlermen. What else do you think the new lorry parks are for?
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Coping with the fact we are out of the customs union (regardless of whether we have a deal or not) and that inevitably means more paperwork and red tape.

You do realise that’s what you voted for don’t you?
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Ask Macron. It seems he's the latest in an infamous list of French Presidents who have treated undermining the UK as a gallic national sport.
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Microbe's got an election coming up and there have always been votes in it for French politicians who have a go at the English.

His position is causing concern in some EU capitals, though. Germany has warned that he should back down. How tenable, is it for France to continue to be allocated a catch of 84% of cod in the UK Channel waters, and the UK only allowed just 9%. As Berlin has warned, 'no deal' will mean that Macron will end up with 0%.

It seems that the EU are attempting their usual game of bluff and brinkmanship, as they did with Greece and Italy during the Euro crises. Push it to the brink, and get the other side to surrender their position at the 11th hour, has always seemed to work. I don't think that it will this time.
 
Realfish said:
Microbe's got an election coming up and there have always been votes in it for French politicians who have a go at the English.

His position is causing concern in some EU capitals, though. Germany has warned that he should back down. How tenable, is it for France to continue to be allocated a catch of 84% of cod in the UK Channel waters, and the UK only allowed just 9%. As Berlin has warned, 'no deal' will mean that Macron will end up with 0%.

It seems that the EU are attempting their usual game of bluff and brinkmanship, as they did with Greece and Italy during the Euro crises. Push it to the brink, and get the other side to surrender their position at the 11th hour, has always seemed to work. I don't think that it will this time.
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Blimey you people still don't realise the UK is and always was outgunned.

The Germans are not going to come to the UKs rescue, the 27 countries have not broken rank at any point, despite the UK trying to split them.

The UK is on its own, its what you voted for.

Stop fooling yourselves, bringing the sneaky French man stereotype back is purely to allow our politicians to swerve the blame.
 
Foolweary said:
Blimey you people still don't realise the UK is and always was outgunned.

The Germans are not going to come to the UKs rescue, the 27 countries have not broken rank at any point, despite the UK trying to split them.

The UK is on its own, its what you voted for.

Stop fooling yourselves, bringing the sneaky French man stereotype back is purely to allow our politicians to swerve the blame.
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Outgunned? It’s not a war and it always was about the French making life difficult for the UK. It was the same when we tried to join the Common Market and it is when we try to leave the EU. What it confirms for those in any doubt is that the EU has only ever been a political empire by which Germany and France control the European mainland. And I wouldn’t be so sure about 27 countries not breaking rank. They know very well that they are closely controlled by and indebted to the Franco-German allianz following the pandemic bail out and the recent EU budget but are becoming increasingly restless.

There is one overriding reason for the EU’s behaviour in the current trade talks, namely the knowledge that the Eurozone is on the verge of collapse and that a successful Brexit could lead to further splits in the bloc. Not only is Italy likely to abandon the euro and revalue its currency, but other member states are questioning the political power exerted by the European Commission. A leading Irish politician described the EU as “having all the hallmarks of an empire that bullies its neighbours” and said that “opposing a fair deal for the UK was never in Ireland's interests. It was a huge blunder." So if I were to back any country going forward, my money would be on the UK. The future of the EU is looking increasingly bleak.
 
tommytwojags said:
Absolutely correct. There seems little doubt that Macron is the main obstacle in reaching a trade deal and I think we know the position of the French trawlermen. Whereas the Brits moan for a while and then get on with things, the French like to go to war. What is likely to be a bigger problem for the UK than any threat from the EU is the inevitability of French trawlers illegally blockading channel ports and preventing passenger/freight ships from landing. That will cause a backlog of wagons in the UK and with the inevitable non-cooperation of the French government will be chaotic. This tactic has been used before by the French and has resulted in disruption as well as serious damage to perishable goods.
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"This tactic has been used before by the French and has resulted in disruption as well as serious damage to perishable goods"

Alan Partridge couldn't have put it any better! Hahahaha
 
Tangerinemoss said:
But, but, but, the Eu will be falling over themselves to get a deal

With Anglo French history, if the Brexiteers didn't factor in the French attitude, they were even more incompetent than they have proven to be.
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Quite. They'll be desperate to give us a deal as were massive. Or so we were told a year ago.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
A leading Irish politician described the EU as “having all the hallmarks of an empire that bullies its neighbours” and said that “opposing a fair deal for the UK was never in Ireland's interests. It was a huge blunder."
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Surely you’re referring to Ray Bassett of the Irish Freedom Party
Description
‘The Irish Freedom Party is a minor right-wing hard Eurosceptic political party in Ireland, launched on 8 September 2018. It advocates Irish withdrawal from the European Union

what the feck do u expect an Irish Farage to say 🙄
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Outgunned? It’s not a war and it always was about the French making life difficult for the UK. It was the same when we tried to join the Common Market and it is when we try to leave the EU. What it confirms for those in any doubt is that the EU has only ever been a political empire by which Germany and France control the European mainland. And I wouldn’t be so sure about 27 countries not breaking rank. They know very well that they are closely controlled by and indebted to the Franco-German allianz following the pandemic bail out and the recent EU budget but are becoming increasingly restless.

There is one overriding reason for the EU’s behaviour in the current trade talks, namely the knowledge that the Eurozone is on the verge of collapse and that a successful Brexit could lead to further splits in the bloc. Not only is Italy likely to abandon the euro and revalue its currency, but other member states are questioning the political power exerted by the European Commission. A leading Irish politician described the EU as “having all the hallmarks of an empire that bullies its neighbours” and said that “opposing a fair deal for the UK was never in Ireland's interests. It was a huge blunder." So if I were to back any country going forward, my money would be on the UK. The future of the EU is looking increasingly bleak.
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😂 deluded
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Outgunned? It’s not a war and it always was about the French making life difficult for the UK. It was the same when we tried to join the Common Market and it is when we try to leave the EU. What it confirms for those in any doubt is that the EU has only ever been a political empire by which Germany and France control the European mainland. And I wouldn’t be so sure about 27 countries not breaking rank. They know very well that they are closely controlled by and indebted to the Franco-German allianz following the pandemic bail out and the recent EU budget but are becoming increasingly restless.

There is one overriding reason for the EU’s behaviour in the current trade talks, namely the knowledge that the Eurozone is on the verge of collapse and that a successful Brexit could lead to further splits in the bloc. Not only is Italy likely to abandon the euro and revalue its currency, but other member states are questioning the political power exerted by the European Commission. A leading Irish politician described the EU as “having all the hallmarks of an empire that bullies its neighbours” and said that “opposing a fair deal for the UK was never in Ireland's interests. It was a huge blunder." So if I were to back any country going forward, my money would be on the UK. The future of the EU is looking increasingly bleak.
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I was deep in thought, intellectualising your post, ready for a reply of rapier wit.
Then again, perhaps it's less exhaustive just to say: Bollocks!
 
You can always rely on yorkie and 66 to put forward a persuasive argument. Oh wait a minute, I've just noticed Kurious's feeble attempt at a coherent response.
It's like Rag, Tag and Bobtail 😆
 
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tangerinenotorange said:
You can always rely on yorkie and 66 to put forward a persuasive argument. Oh wait a minute, I've just noticed Kurious's feeble attempt at a coherent response.
It's like Rag, Tag and Bobtail
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No, honestly TNO, I'm enjoying a couple of beers freezing out on the garage and I just think: your argument is tired, clichéd and obvious - no offence - because the EU was never a manufactured structure for Franco-Germanic control of Europe.
The EU (and before it, the EEC, the Common Market and Coal and Steel Community), was always, firstly and predominantly a commercial vehicle for the prevention of war in Europe.
Throughout its existence it has worked to ensure food supply, provide funding to develop poor areas and, latterly, to ensure that we can compete with the USA, China and the rest of the world.
In addition, you talk as if the UK is some backwater, always to be bullied by the big two of Europe. We're the 5th/6th biggest economy on the planet! Are you really that insecure to believe that the UK's voice in Europe is not heard?
Gove, Johnson and their allies in the libertarian wing of the Tory Party ran that one successfully in the referendum. But, as you know only too well, it was lies, lies, lies.
Now, I'm going back to my beer.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
No, honestly TNO, I'm enjoying a couple of beers freezing out on the garage and I just think: your argument is tired, clichéd and obvious - no offence - because the EU was never a manufactured structure for Franco-Germanic control of Europe.
The EU (and before it, the EEC, the Common Market and Coal and Steel Community), was always, firstly and predominantly a commercial vehicle for the prevention of war in Europe.
Throughout its existence it has worked to ensure food supply, provide funding to develop poor areas and, latterly, to ensure that we can compete with the USA, China and the rest of the world.
In addition, you talk as if the UK is some backwater, always to be bullied by the big two of Europe. We're the 5th/6th biggest economy on the planet! Are you really that insecure to believe that the UK's voice in Europe is not heard?
Gove, Johnson and their allies in the libertarian wing of the Tory Party ran that one successfully in the referendum. But, as you know only too well, it was lies, lies, lies.
Now, I'm going back to my beer.
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Well, thanks for your sensible response '66. At least, you show a willingness to debate a topic, which is an increasingly rare occurrence on here.

Despite what you said, by the time the EU was created in 93 the question of it being a vehicle for the prevention of war was not an issue. Its common core objectives ever since the Treaty of Rome had been the development of a common market and a customs union. That was why the UK chose to join. No mention then of what was to follow over the years in terms of political and legislative control from Brussels.

You ask the question about the UK’s voice in Europe not being heard and I’m amazed that you even doubt such a thing. The UK has had a constant battle with the French in Europe ever since De Gaulle vetoed our applications to join in 63 and 67 on the ground that he "distrusted the British", which in itself should have warned us of what was to follow. The UK and EEC ideal of a common market became a minor objective for the bloc and by rights we should have left then. Instead, the ‘Project’ expanded out of control admitting as member states most of Europe's sickly and insolvent territories. The UK, which was at no point fully accepted by the power brokers, was left with a single vote in 28 despite being the second biggest financial contributor. Instead, we ended up rebuilding half the countries of the Community, allowing coastal countries to take almost total control of our fishing territory and being forced to accept laws to benefit almost everyone but ourselves. Now, the EU is nothing more than a millstone around the neck of the UK desperately dependent on us for its survival. If anyone seriously believes that we need the EU more than it needs us I would be very interested to hear your reasons.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Well, thanks for your sensible response '66. At least, you show a willingness to debate a topic, which is an increasingly rare occurrence on here.

Despite what you said, by the time the EU was created in 93 the question of it being a vehicle for the prevention of war was not an issue. Its common core objectives ever since the Treaty of Rome had been the development of a common market and a customs union. That was why the UK chose to join. No mention then of what was to follow over the years in terms of political and legislative control from Brussels.

You ask the question about the UK’s voice in Europe not being heard and I’m amazed that you even doubt such a thing. The UK has had a constant battle with the French in Europe ever since De Gaulle vetoed our applications to join in 63 and 67 on the ground that he "distrusted the British", which in itself should have warned us of what was to follow. The UK and EEC ideal of a common market became a minor objective for the bloc and by rights we should have left then. Instead, the ‘Project’ expanded out of control admitting as member states most of Europe's sickly and insolvent territories. The UK, which was at no point fully accepted by the power brokers, was left with a single vote in 28 despite being the second biggest financial contributor. Instead, we ended up rebuilding half the countries of the Community, allowing coastal countries to take almost total control of our fishing territory and being forced to accept laws to benefit almost everyone but ourselves. Now, the EU is nothing more than a millstone around the neck of the UK desperately dependent on us for its survival. If anyone seriously believes that we need the EU more than it needs us I would be very interested to hear your reasons.
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As we are now out and don't need the EU as much as they need us, when can i expect to see a Conservative government that got what it wanted rebuild the poorer and neglected parts of the UK.

Would it be possible for us to become a predominantly fishing based economy, would this make things better for us, i'm not convinced because when it comes to seafood most British people i know only eat fish fingers or the occasional haddock from the chippy.

Obviously a massive issue because most Brexiteers are obsessed with it!
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Well, thanks for your sensible response '66. At least, you show a willingness to debate a topic, which is an increasingly rare occurrence on here.

Despite what you said, by the time the EU was created in 93 the question of it being a vehicle for the prevention of war was not an issue. Its common core objectives ever since the Treaty of Rome had been the development of a common market and a customs union. That was why the UK chose to join. No mention then of what was to follow over the years in terms of political and legislative control from Brussels.

You ask the question about the UK’s voice in Europe not being heard and I’m amazed that you even doubt such a thing. The UK has had a constant battle with the French in Europe ever since De Gaulle vetoed our applications to join in 63 and 67 on the ground that he "distrusted the British", which in itself should have warned us of what was to follow. The UK and EEC ideal of a common market became a minor objective for the bloc and by rights we should have left then. Instead, the ‘Project’ expanded out of control admitting as member states most of Europe's sickly and insolvent territories. The UK, which was at no point fully accepted by the power brokers, was left with a single vote in 28 despite being the second biggest financial contributor. Instead, we ended up rebuilding half the countries of the Community, allowing coastal countries to take almost total control of our fishing territory and being forced to accept laws to benefit almost everyone but ourselves. Now, the EU is nothing more than a millstone around the neck of the UK desperately dependent on us for its survival. If anyone seriously believes that we need the EU more than it needs us I would be very interested to hear your reasons.
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It's not a competition as to who can exploit each other the most. A grown up discussion is needed here. If poor, put-upon UK only has one vote then so does arch-control freak Germany and back-stabbing, onion-seller France. A coalition of nations is bound to involve politics and trade-offs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. But, and I repeat, as a leading European nation - economically, militarily, culturally, socially and historically - the answer isn't to take our ball home, it's to be an EU leader. Major and Blair could both see that. Cameron (the complete tit!), could even see it and so does - deep down - Johnson.
Leaving the EU is the last refuge of the malicious, the insecure, the powerfully selfish and the mislead.
So there!
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It's not a competition as to who can exploit each other the most. A grown up discussion is needed here. If poor, put-upon UK only has one vote then so does arch-control freak Germany and back-stabbing, onion-seller France. A coalition of nations is bound to involve politics and trade-offs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. But, and I repeat, as a leading European nation - economically, militarily, culturally, socially and historically - the answer isn't to take our ball home, it's to be an EU leader. Major and Blair could both see that. Cameron (the complete tit!), could even see it and so does - deep down - Johnson.
Leaving the EU is the last refuge of the malicious, the insecure, the powerfully selfish and the mislead.
So there!
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Well done. A sensible and adult response to Tonto’s childish drivel.

Anyway footy calls.
 
This continuous petulant spleen venting by the permanently outraged Remainer clique is absolutely brilliant entertainment - keep up the good work fellas 👍

Keep believing that your opionions are real facts - it helps keep your outraged / affronted levels high which is what you seem to thrive on 😁
 
gjr69 said:
As we are now out and don't need the EU as much as they need us, when can i expect to see a Conservative government that got what it wanted rebuild the poorer and neglected parts of the UK.

Would it be possible for us to become a predominantly fishing based economy, would this make things better for us, i'm not convinced because when it comes to seafood most British people i know only eat fish fingers or the occasional haddock from the chippy.

Obviously a massive issue because most Brexiteers are obsessed with it!
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Has anyone looked at a map of Europe? The EU has lots of other access to fishing waters other than those of the UK so if that's our best bartering tool, we're buggered.
 
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