Nathan Shaw.

Insider

Well-known member
Winky has returned from his brief loan spell at Stockport after only managing 57 minutes game time.
We really need to have some better plans in place to look after the continuing development of players like Nathan and those that are following him. (Antwi, Bange, Sims etc)
The aspiration to be best in class at Academy 3 level is pointless if 18 becomes a brick wall playing wise.
I accept that we are at the business end of the season now and it's not a geat time to be blooding kids.
However we currently have four u/18s on pro-contracts who have probably been attracted to the Club partly by the "Critchley" factor and some promises of a fast track to first team football. If that doesn't happen the promising 16/17 year olds may choose apprenticeships elsewhere.
I don't for one minute pretend to know the answer to this but I would like to hear from the Club their thoughts on the matter.
Maybe one for the next Structured Dialogue meeting?
 
Subbed off at half time in his one start. Is that down to Stockport or the player that we sent them for a month? Wasn't an injury.

Stockport have a Critchley factor having appointed the Brighton U23 development coach that we looked at before going for Critchley.
 
Subbed off at half time in his one start. Is that down to Stockport or the player that we sent them for a month? Wasn't an injury.

Stockport have a Critchley factor having appointed the Brighton U23 development coach that we looked at before going for Critchley.
Yes I know that and the Manager seemed to have a plan of bringing in players like Nathan. Then they signed Madden on £3.5k pw and a 3 yr deal. 😟
 
Yes I know that and the Manager seemed to have a plan of bringing in players like Nathan. Then they signed Madden on £3.5k pw and a 3 yr deal. 😟
Jack Stretton who they signed for a month the same day from Derby U21s scored three in five including a winner v Barnet and was used as a sub for Derby at Reading on Monday so shows the levels. Think he's a year younger.
 
With so many clubs in all divisions now generally having big squads, would it not be a good idea to start up the old type Central League. Just looking at our situation alone, we seem to have what could be regarded as two first teams. I know we have had injuries but this is where the academy graduates can get their opportunity to play a competitive game most weeks . Also for the more accomplished first teasers who are not making the squad on match days, an alternative game will keep them better match fit.
Alternatively what’s to stop Blackpool and any other clubs who want to take part, signing up to play a series of matches throughout the season. All leagues could be involved including the Premier league as there must be so many players not getting any game time.

It must be so disheartening for some of our youngsters particularly Shaw, Antwi and Sims this season to be part of the first team squad, training week after week but getting no game time. Like Insiders says we need to be careful with the younger players but they need to know they are valued and that we don’t lose them.
 
But do you leave senior players out so that 18 year olds can have a game? Which clubs do that? There are only so many places in first tea squads in Leagues1 and 2, and a hell of a lot of players competing for them. A lot of players without a club. It's the nature of the beast isn't it? You can only play in a first team on merit, unless a game is meaningless. How would everyone react if Antwi and Shaw started on Saturday instead of Garbutt and Ward? Or came off the bench for them with 20 minutes to go even? i don't really know how clubs develop players but all clubs have a wodge of young players, and some seniors, training every day but not getting much competitive match time.
 
I think the club is going in the right direction, getting the infrastructure and staff in place to develop the Academy. In time, we could have a U-23 team to bridge that gap between youth team and first team. As for Nathan Shaw, maybe he is just a slow developer? A good example is Tom Barkhuizen who had a few loan spells, I seem to remember he did well at Hereford. The only difference was that his development was blocked by Paul Ince because he posed a threat to his Thomas.
 
But do you leave senior players out so that 18 year olds can have a game? Which clubs do that? There are only so many places in first tea squads in Leagues1 and 2, and a hell of a lot of players competing for them. A lot of players without a club. It's the nature of the beast isn't it? You can only play in a first team on merit, unless a game is meaningless. How would everyone react if Antwi and Shaw started on Saturday instead of Garbutt and Ward? Or came off the bench for them with 20 minutes to go even? i don't really know how clubs develop players but all clubs have a wodge of young players, and some seniors, training every day but not getting much competitive match time.


Brentford have had joy with the development squad idea, although they don't have a youth system.

Their method is to look for players between 18-23, the ages players fall out of the game due to the gap in the end of youth football and establishing themselves in pro football. They get a mix of younger British lads and lads like from weaker European leagues (might be complicated by Brexit) and look to build them up to the demands of the Championship.

They use the development squad to play them in purposely arranged behind closed doors games, normally against clubs using a similar methods or against squads with players away for international duty.

Definitely feel they have found a good way to bridge the gap when you look at the players they have brought through and the conveyor belt nature of it.
 
always looked like a good player when ive seen him, during the pre-season games he stood out as did Antwi surprised they havent been given more of an opportunity to be honest. those two in particular never look to weak for this level of football, Antwi wehn hes played looks like he can run through brick walls
 
I didn't realise Barnet are on their way back down the pyramid.

No relegation from the national league this season as the divisions below were voided a while back so Barnet will get a reprieve this year. Not sure what the situation is with Dover as they basically said there is no point spending money they don’t have to play matches.

On the other subject raised in this thread I do think some kind of reserve league should be revived, and games should be played at weekends so all players in the squad are in the same training routine.
 
The club needs to develop these youngsters we will need a squad of 25 players when we
reach the Premiership again don t want to be scratching around for players like Holloway did.
 
Surprised he couldn't get into Stockport's squad in the National League, he's looked alright for us when he's come on.
 
To be fair, he was sent out to Fylde but came back because that division was cancelled, so was likely sent to Stockport in hope he would still be a to get a bit of game time. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on our bench in the next few games, considering our lack of attacking options
 
Astonished we've given this lad another contract - looks like he should still be sat at home in short pants doing his homework - am I missing something?
 
Astonished we've given this lad another contract - looks like he should still be sat at home in short pants doing his homework - am I missing something?
You obviously didn’t watch the pre season friendlies - was one of the better players, a good passer, skilful, gets stuck in and an excellent crosser. Maybe not the quickest, but plenty of potential.
 
Astonished we've given this lad another contract - looks like he should still be sat at home in short pants doing his homework - am I missing something?
Yes.
Perhaps if you'd seen him play you might have a different opinion.
Well done Nathan on being kept on.
Edit.
I go back to what I said in my o/p though. We are signing 17/18 yrs olds and we need some way of getting them playing regular football and we won't even have the EFL Trophy next season.
 
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He really needs to get some league game time, you would think clubs like Harogate, Barrow and Morecombe would be keen on a loan.
 
Unfortunately we have a cat 3 academy so our kids play against other cat 3 kids and look quite good

Even Wigan and Crewe have a cat 2 Academy

Massive step up playing cat 2 or cat 1 Academy teams never mind a step into first team football

So in short our kids probably aren't as good as some people think so loans to non league teams are probably the only way for them to play at the moment

That isn't a criticism of the club and its owners more part of the Oyston legacy
 
Shaw is a bit of an odd one. He's ungainly and not very fast, doesn't look anything like you expect a player of his position to play and yet when he plays, he looks very classy, has a real maturity to him and his delivery and use of the ball is excellent.

I really like him.

I can't see him breaking through into our team next year but I think an extended loan at a league 2 side is what he needs and there's without question a player in there.

He impresses me more than Antwi in some ways though I rate him as well and see him as needing similar.

The player I'd really like to see given minutes here and there (aside from Holmes) is Rob Apter. I think it's probably easier to bed in an attacking player in some ways and he looks to have something about him. I like that he seems unphased in the little glimpses I've seen and tries to make stuff happen when it would be easy just to get a few touches and minimise risk.

It will be interesting to see how these kids come on having gone through 18 months of Critch led youth development. I know he doesn't coach them directly unless they're in the first team mix but I assume he's had some say on the direction of the youth set up.

Agree with Phil, we need to get the academy up to scratch ASAP so young kids are more ready to step up/tested against the best and we can make clearer judgements about their level. Also, so we can attract the best youth and not see them choose other local clubs.

No idea what process is to upgrade academy or how long it takes. I know they've publicly stated it's the goal.
 
Unfortunately we have a cat 3 academy so our kids play against other cat 3 kids and look quite good

Even Wigan and Crewe have a cat 2 Academy

Massive step up playing cat 2 or cat 1 Academy teams never mind a step into first team football

So in short our kids probably aren't as good as some people think so loans to non league teams are probably the only way for them to play at the moment

That isn't a criticism of the club and its owners more part of the Oyston legacy
Spot on Pip.

Anyone who saw the Youth cup semi a few years back - when our lads played Arsenal - would have understood the gulf. In terms of physical stature and athletic prowess it was men against boys and that was before we moved onto footballing ability.

One of the Arsenal players in that tie was Dan Ballard. A player who when he started this season was still learning about real first team football and has been 'educated' through the season against the likes of Kyle Vassell/Joe Garner etc. That's a young player with size and a high level footballing ability on his side. A lesser player without those attributes would be eaten alive.
 
It’s an interesting one. Garrity must be to sell on, but offering Shaw a new contract surely means we see potential. As others have said, he was almost a standout player pre-season, played more minutes than pretty much anyone I think and played numerous positions and looked good. You’d imagine our promotion makes the step up even harder but it would be nice to have a homegrown regular one day.
 
The step up into senior squads is massive for any young player, even at conference level. It's a completely different game. Critchley knows that.
 
,
Shaw is a bit of an odd one. He's ungainly and not very fast, doesn't look anything like you expect a player of his position to play and yet when he plays, he looks very classy, has a real maturity to him and his delivery and use of the ball is excellent.

I really like him.

I can't see him breaking through into our team next year but I think an extended loan at a league 2 side is what he needs and there's without question a player in there.

He impresses me more than Antwi in some ways though I rate him as well and see him as needing similar.

The player I'd really like to see given minutes here and there (aside from Holmes) is Rob Apter. I think it's probably easier to bed in an attacking player in some ways and he looks to have something about him. I like that he seems unphased in the little glimpses I've seen and tries to make stuff happen when it would be easy just to get a few touches and minimise risk.

It will be interesting to see how these kids come on having gone through 18 months of Critch led youth development. I know he doesn't coach them directly unless they're in the first team mix but I assume he's had some say on the direction of the youth set up.

Agree with Phil, we need to get the academy up to scratch ASAP so young kids are more ready to step up/tested against the best and we can make clearer judgements about their level. Also, so we can attract the best youth and not see them choose other local clubs.

No idea what process is to upgrade academy or how long it takes. I know they've publicly stated it's the goal.
There's lots of criteria for achieving Cat 2 status and most of that is infrastructure so clearly it was never going to happen whilst the Stains were in charge bearing in mind the PL money was needed elsewhere.
In fact I think at one stage we were even threatenned with having Cat 3 status removed.
So until we get the new training facility built we won't be getting Category 2.
Of course our Youth team generally play against Cat 3 players, as young Phil frequently reminds us, but we have played Cat 2 teams and beaten them and even a couple of friendlies against Cat 1 teams as well.
On top of that there are a few players around that have made the step up from Cat 3 academies straight into Championship teams.
 
,

There's lots of criteria for achieving Cat 2 status and most of that is infrastructure so clearly it was never going to happen whilst the Stains were in charge bearing in mind the PL money was needed elsewhere.
In fact I think at one stage we were even threatenned with having Cat 3 status removed.
So until we get the new training facility built we won't be getting Category 2.
Of course our Youth team generally play against Cat 3 players, as young Phil frequently reminds us, but we have played Cat 2 teams and beaten them and even a couple of friendlies against Cat 1 teams as well.
On top of that there are a few players around that have made the step up from Cat 3 academies straight into Championship teams.
Cheers boss.

👍
 
Unfortunately we have a cat 3 academy so our kids play against other cat 3 kids and look quite good

Even Wigan and Crewe have a cat 2 Academy

Massive step up playing cat 2 or cat 1 Academy teams never mind a step into first team football

So in short our kids probably aren't as good as some people think so loans to non league teams are probably the only way for them to play at the moment

That isn't a criticism of the club and its owners more part of the Oyston legacy
Even when we reached the semi final of the FA Youth Cup, we didn't get any lads from that side cementing a first team place, and that was at a time when the first team were lower down in the pyramid. Just shows how big the gap is.
 
It’s an interesting one. Garrity must be to sell on, but offering Shaw a new contract surely means we see potential. As others have said, he was almost a standout player pre-season, played more minutes than pretty much anyone I think and played numerous positions and looked good. You’d imagine our promotion makes the step up even harder but it would be nice to have a homegrown regular one day.
I wouldn't write Garrity off so quick. He was doing well at Oldham until an injury struck. That was his first taste of EFL football. I also remember Warrington Town fans predicting he could eventually go higher than League One which was a bold statement for a player just trying to get his first break through. Must have something there so will be good to see him in pre-season now he has that experience under his belt.
 
A basket case of a season so hopefully come August these young lads such as Antwi, Shaw and Garrity can get a proper loan spell under their belts.
 
Even when we reached the semi final of the FA Youth Cup, we didn't get any lads from that side cementing a first team place, and that was at a time when the first team were lower down in the pyramid. Just shows how big the gap is.
I wonder if it's about 'the gap' or about the pressure on managers. It's a risk to play kids and as managers get a lot less leeway in the modern era, we get a lot less risk with kids.

We've seen this year how some of the young players (ok, not our own) have transformed themselves over a number of games, with Simms being the most obvious example.

The last manager we had who seemed to regularly give youth a chance was Billy Are, who was instrumental in the careers of Sinclair, Bonner, Beech, Gouck and others who all went on to have decent careers at one level or another whether above or below is.

I can't help thinking their longevity and relative success was partly to do with their experience when young forging an understanding of what senior football is.

There seems to be a tendancy to say 'player X isn't ready' but as we've seen with players this year, a player after one or two games is different to the same player after 15 or 20 games.

I'm not saying Simms isn't *better* than what we have, he almost certainly is, but add 15 or 20 starts onto Holmes, Apter, Shaw, Antwi and you'd see a different player to who you see now and less of a gap between their current ability and the required level.

We can't start kids for the sake of it, but I think in general, this is an issue across football as a whole, not a particular issue with us.
 
I wouldn't write Garrity off so quick. He was doing well at Oldham until an injury struck. That was his first taste of EFL football. I also remember Warrington Town fans predicting he could eventually go higher than League One which was a bold statement for a player just trying to get his first break through. Must have something there so will be good to see him in pre-season now he has that experience under his belt.
Warrington Town fans haven’t even witnessed Conference football so I’m not sure why they’d be predicting he’d eventually go higher than league 1.good luck to him but I very much doubt he’ll be here at the end of next season.
 
Whatever decisions are made on players released/kept, it's down to NC now as to who stays and who goes.
He's had such an amazing success in his first year we must accept his judgement and decision on release and keep..
Obviously he has his eyes on other players, only time will tell.
 
Wasn't their an expressed ambition of 5 by 25;

So, 5 of our youth team becoming first team regulars by 2025; now I'm not sure whether the target has slipped with Covid, but it was a statement of intent.

I think promotion has made it harder insofar as the opposition is stronger; but we need to start showing our kids the chance remains to break through and have a successful career in football, preferably with us.

If anybody can guide us there it's Critchley.
 
I wonder if it's about 'the gap' or about the pressure on managers. It's a risk to play kids and as managers get a lot less leeway in the modern era, we get a lot less risk with kids.

We've seen this year how some of the young players (ok, not our own) have transformed themselves over a number of games, with Simms being the most obvious example.

The last manager we had who seemed to regularly give youth a chance was Billy Are, who was instrumental in the careers of Sinclair, Bonner, Beech, Gouck and others who all went on to have decent careers at one level or another whether above or below is.

I can't help thinking their longevity and relative success was partly to do with their experience when young forging an understanding of what senior football is.

There seems to be a tendancy to say 'player X isn't ready' but as we've seen with players this year, a player after one or two games is different to the same player after 15 or 20 games.

I'm not saying Simms isn't *better* than what we have, he almost certainly is, but add 15 or 20 starts onto Holmes, Apter, Shaw, Antwi and you'd see a different player to who you see now and less of a gap between their current ability and the required level.

We can't start kids for the sake of it, but I think in general, this is an issue across football as a whole, not a particular issue with us.
I agree with you 100%. There was no way that Critchy was going to take a chance this season on our unproven kids when he was trying to build his own unproven managerial status. I'm sure if the season had become a dead rubber with 6 games to go it would have been different.
Lee Clark gave the kids a chance, Telford, Waddington, Bright are the 3 that spring to mind but that was because he had no choice.
As much as I dislike Joey B he's prepared to give kids a go and at the much vaunted Crewe that seems to in-built into the Club's raison d'etre.
 
Wasn't their an expressed ambition of 5 by 25;

So, 5 of our youth team becoming first team regulars by 2025; now I'm not sure whether the target has slipped with Covid, but it was a statement of intent.

I think promotion has made it harder insofar as the opposition is stronger; but we need to start showing our kids the chance remains to break through and have a successful career in football, preferably with us.

If anybody can guide us there it's Critchley.
There was indeed and I used to use it as a # in posts a while back.
I've also mentioned it in questions raised on my behalf at structured dialogue meetings.
I think offering contracts to the best 17 yr olds is a clear indication that it's still a live ambition.
 
There was indeed and I used to use it as a # in posts a while back.
I've also mentioned it in questions raised on my behalf at structured dialogue meetings.
I think offering contracts to the best 17 yr olds is a clear indication that it's still a live ambition.

Even with big investment, youth development is a lottery and there's thousands of cases of players being let go by their first club and then coming back strongly to play in a much higher league than their first club. Rickie Lambert is a good example.
 
Shaw is a bit of an odd one. He's ungainly and not very fast, doesn't look anything like you expect a player of his position to play and yet when he plays, he looks very classy, has a real maturity to him and his delivery and use of the ball is excellent.
never saw him play but it would be good to send him to a team where the manager plays at his strenghts. Same with other promising youngsters
 
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