NHS Waiting Lists set to surge to 8m

TwelveAngryMen

TwelveAngryMen

Well-known member
Excuse my use of the Daily Mail as source material but this is very worrying and reinforces the concerns I have previously expressed ( albeit my concerns centred on the financials ) over the indirect knock on impact of the virus on death rates

www.dailymail.co.uk

Eight million patients on waiting lists by autumn, health boss warns

Chief of the Nuffield Trust said hospitals in England have only been able to carry out around '15 to 20 per cent' of elective procedures, meaning up to 1.3million patients are missing out every month.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Agreed. This is the dog that has not barked yet. Well not much anyway.
A lot of catching up to do, and in a way that has NHS capacity for non Covid activity operating below capacity for a long time in most areas I would think.
No doubt a lot of excess deaths will be attributable to people not accessing the ‘normal’ bits of the NHS as well.
 
Was a little surprised that the wife got a call yesterday to say she has her knee op sometime in the next month at one of the covid free hospitals nearby. Waiting on a date and the paperwork now but came out of the blue.
 
This is a fair point. Unfortunately, that future demand cannot be absorbed by the existing, limited infrastructure and it takes time and money to grow that infrastructure. This why I have always favoured a capacity plus approach to healthcare. That is, operating with an infrastructure larger than is normally necessary. It does not come cheap but I would like to think that an advanced society like ours - what do they say, the 6th largest economy in the world - should be capable of running with excess capacity.
 
To me the chap in the video just came across as someone worried because he was losing a shit load of money. So he’s going to shout and finger jab until people just accept that’s not acceptable!

And as for the “death is inevitable; get over it” argument - it reminds me of the concerned children who are well aware of the invoices they receive from the care home every month. And get a bit twitchy about the dwindling inheritance. But, of course, it’d be impolite to put it so bluntly. It’s normally expressed more diplomatically as “Oh yes. There would’ve been more cash; but the parents lingered”.

Let’s stop dancing around the issue. The debate is coming down to “how much is a life worth?”.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
To me the chap in the video just came across as someone worried because he was losing a shit load of money. So he’s going to shout and finger jab until people just accept that’s not acceptable!

And as for the “death is inevitable; get over it” argument - it reminds me of the concerned children who are well aware of the invoices they receive from the care home every month. And get a bit twitchy about the dwindling inheritance. But, of course, it’d be impolite to put it so bluntly. It’s normally expressed more diplomatically as “Oh yes. There would’ve been more cash; but the parents lingered”.

Let’s stop dancing around the issue. The debate is coming down to “how much is a life worth?”.
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its your opinion Mex Fair play but I think you are busy trying to pretend to be a real “caring guy” compared to the rest of the uncaring World etc etc .....I can’t really buy it mate, it’s overly simplistic ......and I am just being honest, not meaning to be insulting...feel free to “honest” me back
 
Mexboroseasider said:
To me the chap in the video just came across as someone worried because he was losing a shit load of money. So he’s going to shout and finger jab until people just accept that’s not acceptable!

And as for the “death is inevitable; get over it” argument - it reminds me of the concerned children who are well aware of the invoices they receive from the care home every month. And get a bit twitchy about the dwindling inheritance. But, of course, it’d be impolite to put it so bluntly. It’s normally expressed more diplomatically as “Oh yes. There would’ve been more cash; but the parents lingered”.

Let’s stop dancing around the issue. The debate is coming down to “how much is a life worth?”.
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Is it fuck..

It's about recognising that the health impacts of measures taken extend further than the end of your nose...
 
Right Wing.... 🤣

What we are witnessing is completed irrational responses, which are borne out of fear and lack of exposeure to death. It's almost as if people think that nobody died before this virus came along.
 
Bloodtangerine said:
its your opinion Mex Fair play but I think you are busy trying to pretend to be a real “caring guy” compared to the rest of the uncaring World etc etc .....I can’t really buy it mate, it’s overly simplistic ......and I am just being honest, not meaning to be insulting...feel free to “honest” me back
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To be frank I’m not sure I do care. People do die. In fact I’d venture out on a limb and speculate that everyone on this board might die one day.

I’m more interested about what people are prioritising at the moment. The Life/death/ money/risk ratio.

Because at the moment it’s all over the place. And to use an exciting word it’s “dynamic”.

So TAM and Bifster (for economic and libertarian reasons) apparently think they are immune. That might change when they realise they aren’t.

But after 2 years of lockdown even the most fervent “shielders” might think “fcuk it - I’m going to the pub!!!”

It’s all very illuminating I must say.
 
Rotten disease and rotten death for sure
However the numbers who die are a small percentage unless you are Male ,over 50 ,carrying a bit of timber,diabetic from ethnic minority and bald it's quite a bit more worrying to say the least

Death is always seen as normal part of life i.e. the end - its not quite normal when its somebody you are close to but that is life

I don't believe in relaxing the restrictions for economic reasons alone but they are very important and I'm not some kind of Darwinist

I'm concerned that there is a mass anxiety being whipped up by the mainstream and social media which is causing psychological and economic paralysis .
The cynic in me thinks some people may be getting cosy working from home and with furlough fever

On a brighter note the app along with extensive testing for the virus and antibodies should start to open things up - still think we wont be having a pint on a pub until the autumn
 
Going back to op original point

The biggest concerns in A&E at this time ,along with c19 is -

Where are the cardiac ,cancer,sepsis and cancer patients - sure they are turning up but in much lower numbers
 
Mexboroseasider said:
To be frank I’m not sure I do care. People do die. In fact I’d venture out on a limb and speculate that everyone on this board might die one day.

I’m more interested about what people are prioritising at the moment. The Life/death/ money/risk ratio.

Because at the moment it’s all over the place. And to use an exciting word it’s “dynamic”.

So TAM and Bifster (for economic and libertarian reasons) apparently think they are immune. That might change when they realise they aren’t.

But after 2 years of lockdown even the most fervent “shielders” might think “fcuk it - I’m going to the pub!!!”

It’s all very illuminating I must say.
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Mexboroseasider said:
To be frank I’m not sure I do care. People do die. In fact I’d venture out on a limb and speculate that everyone on this board might die one day.

I’m more interested about what people are prioritising at the moment. The Life/death/ money/risk ratio.

Because at the moment it’s all over the place. And to use an exciting word it’s “dynamic”.

So TAM and Bifster (for economic and libertarian reasons) apparently think they are immune. That might change when they realise they aren’t.

But after 2 years of lockdown even the most fervent “shielders” might think “fcuk it - I’m going to the pub!!!”

It’s all very illuminating I must say.
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Mex, not being provocative on purpose but you seem to adopting some “Wise Old Sage“ status in your own mind......it’s both a bit predictable and boring ....in my opinion. I think you are a decent chap Btw but not sure where you are going with this shite
 
Bloodtangerine said:
Mex, not being provocative on purpose but you seem to adopting some “Wise Old Sage“ status in your own mind......it’s both a bit predictable and boring ....in my opinion. I think you are a decent chap Btw but not sure where you are going with this shite
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Blood. I’m probably just too old and too tired to put up with the BS any longer.

All the virtue signalling, applauding the NHS whilst quietly thinking “What with furlough we won’t be able to afford to increase the salaries of the nurses - mustn’t live beyond our means even if we don’t know the difference between gilts and bonds or where the government gets its money from”.

Or the virtue signalling around WW2 vets who raise enormous amounts of money for the NHS: that is the ones who haven’t been killed because we couldn’t control the admission of covid19 patients into care homes.

Not trying to come across as a “Wise Old Sage”. Just saying it as I see it. If that upsets Apple carts - well that’s a shame.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Blood. I’m probably just too old and too tired to put up with the BS any longer.

All the virtue signalling, applauding the NHS whilst quietly thinking “What with furlough we won’t be able to afford to increase the salaries of the nurses - mustn’t live beyond our means even if we don’t know the difference between gilts and bonds or where the government gets its money from”.

Or the virtue signalling around WW2 vets who raise enormous amounts of money for the NHS: that is the ones who haven’t been killed because we couldn’t control the admission of covid19 patients into care homes.

Not trying to come across as a “Wise Old Sage”. Just saying it as I see it. If that upsets Apple carts - well that’s a shame.
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Mexboroseasider said:
Blood. I’m probably just too old and too tired to put up with the BS any longer.

All the virtue signalling, applauding the NHS whilst quietly thinking “What with furlough we won’t be able to afford to increase the salaries of the nurses - mustn’t live beyond our means even if we don’t know the difference between gilts and bonds or where the government gets its money from”.

Or the virtue signalling around WW2 vets who raise enormous amounts of money for the NHS: that is the ones who haven’t been killed because we couldn’t control the admission of covid19 patients into care homes.

Not trying to come across as a “Wise Old Sage”. Just saying it as I see it. If that upsets Apple carts - well that’s a shame.
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Wiz, Like you I have heard it all before ...many many times.......I just think you are getting a bit too Lemon tbh mate...no offence intended, just being honest pal....sleep tight fella 👍
 
Mexboroseasider said:
To be frank I’m not sure I do care. People do die. In fact I’d venture out on a limb and speculate that everyone on this board might die one day.

I’m more interested about what people are prioritising at the moment. The Life/death/ money/risk ratio.

Because at the moment it’s all over the place. And to use an exciting word it’s “dynamic”.

So TAM and Bifster (for economic and libertarian reasons) apparently think they are immune. That might change when they realise they aren’t.

But after 2 years of lockdown even the most fervent “shielders” might think “fcuk it - I’m going to the pub!!!”

It’s all very illuminating I must say.
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It's got sod all to do with economic or libertarian reasons mex...and nothing to do with thinking we are immune. It's about paying attention to the actual risk, taking a proportionate approach to mitigation and balancing that against the very real risks associated with the impact of those mitigation measures. For want of a better expression, there is death on either side of the seesaw, it's not just about what currently makes the headlines.

We've been banging on for years about the implications of austerity, unemployment, lack of education, isolation etc... and where all of that ultimately leads. It certainly doesn't increase the average life expectancy does it!!
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It's got sod all to do with economic or libertarian reasons mex...and nothing to do with thinking we are immune. It's about paying attention to the actual risk, taking a proportionate approach to mitigation and balancing that against the very real risks associated with the impact of those mitigation measures. For want of a better expression, there is death on either side of the seesaw, it's not just about what currently makes the headlines.

We've been banging on for years about the implications of austerity, unemployment, lack of education, isolation etc... and where all of that ultimately leads. It certainly doesn't increase the average life expectancy does it!!
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Well you’re wrong and you’re right.

The arguments for relaxation are clearly based on economic and libertarian principles. Lockdown is costing us money. Lockdown is an infringement of our historic rights. So you’re wrong to argue that those issues have sod all to do with the debate.

You are right however about the assessment of risks. And if you read what I actually posted you’ll see that’s what I’m acknowledging.

So we aren’t actually that far apart and the debate really is where we find the balance.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well you’re wrong and you’re right.

The arguments for relaxation are clearly based on economic and libertarian principles. Lockdown is costing us money. Lockdown is an infringement of our historic rights. So you’re wrong to argue that those issues have sod all to do with the debate.

You are right however about the assessment of risks. And if you read what I actually posted you’ll see that’s what I’m acknowledging.

So we aren’t actually that far apart and the debate really is where we find the balance.
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You seem to be missing the point... The economy has an impact on health and well-being....The economic argument is ultimately about preserving life too. Likewise the libertarian argument...Locking people up also has signifcant health impacts.

The choice isn't Save Lives vs Maintain Freedom / Protect the Economy It's Lose Lives in Short Term vs Lose More lives in Long Term
 
If we’re banging the drum now regarding the economy and it’s impact on health and social well being then why not bang it all the other times when people are suffering from individuals reactions to when their business goes wrong.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
You seem to be missing the point... The economy has an impact on health and well-being....The economic argument is ultimately about preserving life too. Likewise the libertarian argument...Locking people up also has signifcant health impacts.

The choice isn't Save Lives vs Maintain Freedom / Protect the Economy It's Lose Lives in Short Term vs Lose More lives in Long Term
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Or are people just looking for a moral justification for ending the lockdown? A lockdown that is clearly costing a lot of money.

You know how it works. People adopt their position first (end the lockdown), and then look for ways to justify that position and put themselves in a good light. So, rather than saying it’s bloody expensive or it’s causing massive disruption to the ways we’ve lived our lives previously, they come up with the argument that we have to end the lockdown in order to save more lives. That may be true, but it isn’t what’s motivating a lot of people who are calling for an end to lockdown.

Going back to the video of the entrepreneur on QT, which is where I started, he just seemed to me to be someone who was really angry because the lockdown was costing him a shitload of money. But, instead of being honest and saying that, he had to pretend to be concerned about the deaths that would result from the recession. Well maybe he is, but as has been said by others, I don’t recall seeing videos of him over the last 10 years warning of the dangers of austerity and the deaths that policy caused.

And to be honest I suspect we’re talking about different things anyway. You’re talking about ending the lockdown, whereas I’m chaffing about the honesty of the debate.
 
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straightatthewall said:
If we’re banging the drum now regarding the economy and it’s impact on health and social well being then why not bang it all the other times when people are suffering from individuals reactions to when their business goes wrong.
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Precisely.

And next time Cat puts up a post about how austerity policies over the last 10 years have caused tons of deaths, I assume we can expect a flood of 👍s from those who are now arguing we have to end the lockdown in order to avoid a depression and save lives.
 
We are discussing the knock on impact of unprecedented measures for an unprecedented situation
I’m not coming at it from a political or indeed a personal angle ( despite a few digs to the contrary ) I’m just making the point that there’s a human cost to the measures we are in that at present appears to be ignored by many
BFCx3’s ‘ seesaw ‘ analogy is a good one
It’s about getting the balance right and that isn't achieved by making our hospitals operate in a way that creates waiting lists of the length reported for anything other than the virus and locking the school gates to our children
As it appears the virus is here to stay we have to learn to live with it
How we do that is the debate
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Or are people just looking for a moral justification for ending the lockdown? A lockdown that is clearly costing a lot of money.

You know how it works. People adopt their position first (end the lockdown), and then look for ways to justify that position and put themselves in a good light. So, rather than saying it’s bloody expensive or it’s causing massive disruption to the ways we’ve lived our lives previously, they come up with the argument that we have to end the lockdown in order to save more lives. That may be true, but it isn’t what’s motivating a lot of people who are calling for an end to lockdown.

Going back to the video of the entrepreneur on QT, which is where I started, he just seemed to me to be someone who was really angry because the lockdown was costing him a shitload of money. But, instead of being honest and saying that, he had to pretend to be concerned about the deaths that would result from the recession. Well maybe he is, but as has been said by others, I don’t recall seeing videos of him over the last 10 years warning of the dangers of austerity and the deaths that policy caused.

And to be honest I suspect we’re talking about different things anyway. You’re talking about ending the lockdown, whereas I’m chaffing about the honesty of the debate.
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No I don't "know how it works"... As far as I can see, peoples 'positions' are being informed through access to information and informed by expert opinion, statistics and the recognition of the wider implications / impacts of this lockdown.

Are you telling me that you don't recognise the impact that a significant economic depression will have on public health?

And what about the general effects of simply locking people up? Since lockdown we have seen a rise in cases of Kawasaki Disease in children (over-responsive immune reaction). There are significant links between childhood vitamin D deficiency and kawasaki disease... Should we therefore be surprised that preventing our kids from healthly outdoor activity and locking them inside might result in screwing up their natural immune systems? What about impacts of general isolation....Who is to say that a huge preoportion of the death in our elderly have not been precipitated by the isolation and having been shunted around the social healthcare system to make room for the Covid priority.

The entrepreneur on Question Time was simply highlighting the stupidity of a response that is completely disproportionate to the risk. As I said in my first post, people (similar to yourself) can no longer see the wood for the trees....Their gaze is fixated on the Covid19 digital death counter and they cannot see beyond that. Would you respond to a similar RTA Death Counter by banning car travel or a Drowning Death Counter with a worldwide ban on swimming.... How do you currently respond to the worldwide Death from Starvation or Contaminated Water digital counters? Presumably you distributing your pension between you and the those who will die if you don't?

And you used both myself and TAM as examples of people who were supposedly not being 'honest' about our motivation for seeking a softening of the current lockdown. TAM will know only too well what the direct implications of this virus are on local business people as no doubt many will have been seeking advice about how to deal with the problem and how to ensure that them and their employees have some kind of job / income to return to....Incomes that will have far reaching impact on the lives and wellbeing of their families and the wider community.

I have no idea what the bloke on QT has had to say about austerity and nor do you (you're making broad brush assumptions) however I have been very outspoken in my opposition to austerity and I have used exactly the same argument as I am here.
 
I know Question Time has to have a "balanced panel" , but a right wing, brexit zealot multimillionaire (net worth £220 million) ???

He would say that, wouldn't he?

He must be down to his last £150 million by now. Let's start a crowdfunding appeal for him !!!
 
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