Post Office Enquiry (Van Den Bogerd giving evidence today)

1966_and_all_that

1966_and_all_that

Well-known member
Alan Bates is currently live on BBC2 and iPlayer, giving evidence to the Post Office enquiry.

Since I joined (last 10 mins) he's explaining that whilst being held responsible/accountable for £6,000 of Giro losses in the first two months of having Horizon installed in his post office, the system did not give him the reporting and auditing facilities to investigate them.
 
Towerpower99 said:
Ed Davey was prepped by his people to promise nothing… give nothing and to do nothing… in the meeting.., no wonder Alan didn’t remember it. 😀
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I know it's not a popular opinion, but Ed Davey is my local MP and I have to say, he's generally good. Very visible around the community. Does a lot of real grass roots.

Real good drama though this hearing. The story has the makings of an excellent TV series.
 
straightatthewall said:
I know it's not a popular opinion, but Ed Davey is my local MP and I have to say, he's generally good. Very visible around the community. Does a lot of real grass roots.

Real good drama though this hearing. The story has the makings of an excellent TV series.
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As Alan said he doesn’t blame the Ministers really( they come and go every year or so)… he blames the suits that are behind them who feed them the narrative that they want them to carry out….
 
Towerpower99 said:
As Alan said he doesn’t blame the Ministers really( they come and go every year or so)… he blames the suits that are behind them who feed them the narrative that they want them to carry out….
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It was probably the same briefing they'd been giving to Blair and Brown's governments.
 
I listened to most of it today, seems a genuinely smart guy, talks well, and has coherent and reasoned explanations, unlike the majority of the post office employees and management who have appeared at the inquest, many of whom when they weren't obviously lying or avoiding lying came across as completely incompetent. The highlight for me was when a post office lawyer referred in a memo to Mr Bates as having a flexible relationship with the truth. Oh the irony.
 
Tangerine phil said:
Alan Bates cleverly chose an expression “thugs in suits” picked up by newspapers. Paula V to be put on the spot next month, should be worth a watch.
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I think she will have taken lessons from Boris and Rishi and fails to remember. Her problem is the myriad of emails which show she knew about it by 2012.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
I think she will have taken lessons from Boris and Rishi and fails to remember. Her problem is the myriad of emails which show she knew about it by 2012.
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I bet she was the individual behind the bullying culture. There's been a lot of that in the corporate world - the macho culture - and she's a corporate creature.
 
Vennells is a hypocrite & a liar I hope they throw the book at her. She was also a priest and although I'm not religious I seem to remember a wise comment written in the bible which always struck me as a way to conduct yourself, which she chose to completely ignore. " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" I hope that comes back to bite her.
 
Archibald Knox said:
One of Sir Keir’s first actions as PM should be to make Mr Bates a life peer of the realm, given his talent and persistence in righting wrongs. A knighthood is insufficient imho.
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Surely some overseas donors will be first on the list, like the Easter honours this time.
 
Sooty59 said:
Vennells is a hypocrite & a liar I hope they throw the book at her. She was also a priest and although I'm not religious I seem to remember a wise comment written in the bible which always struck me as a way to conduct yourself, which she chose to completely ignore. " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" I hope that comes back to bite her.
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Sooty59 said:
Vennells is a hypocrite & a liar I hope they throw the book at her. She was also a priest and although I'm not religious I seem to remember a wise comment written in the bible which always struck me as a way to conduct yourself, which she chose to completely ignore. " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" I hope that comes back to bite her.
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It’s about time people in the corporate world are held to account for the actions of their companies. Fines are not enough she and many others hid the truth and prosecuted postmasters so it would send out the right message to boardrooms across the country if jail sentences were handed out.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
I think she will have taken lessons from Boris and Rishi and fails to remember. Her problem is the myriad of emails which show she knew about it by 2012.
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At the enquiry she will have the right to not incriminate herself, the not remembering tactic however might cause some issues if and / or when there are criminal prosecutions, which there should be. Suddenly remembering at a criminal trial or under caution might not work very well when you have claimed to not remeber - a lot of backtracking. Dont know whether testimony at the hearing can be used in a criminal trial however.
 
Tangerine phil said:
It’s about time people in the corporate world are held to account for the actions of their companies. Fines are not enough she and many others hid the truth and prosecuted postmasters so it would send out the right message to boardrooms across the country if jail sentences were handed out.
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If there’s documented evidence ie emails etc proving beyond doubt she knew. Then she should be prosecuted for perjury for starters. These types of individuals think they can get away with anything. If it were you or I we would be prosecuted. One law for the rich & one for the poor & I wouldn’t describe myself as poor but compared to these people I guess I am. 🤬
 
Satriale's Pork Store said:
I too found that rather strange.

After being initially knocked back by Davey, Bates scripted a wonderful second letter that secured the meeting. He then appeared to have no recollection of the meeting?
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Bates was just being honest, sounds like nothing happened not surprising with Davy. I think bates said two lawyers attended so they will have taken notes.
 
" Davey agreed to meet Bates in October 2010 but had been briefed by officials to do so for “presentational reasons”, according to civil service briefing notes shared with the inquiry.The documents showed officials advised Davey to “avoid [making] any commitment” to the objectives of the postmasters’ campaign group."
 
He certainly has a dogged determination.

I was curious as to how he has financially survived over the past 20 years, because he doesn't appear to have another job????🤔
 
Satriale's Pork Store said:
He certainly has a dogged determination.

I was curious as to how he has financially survived over the past 20 years, because he doesn't appear to have another job????🤔
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No doubt the Post Office execs will claim he’s been funded by the Russians for many years to destabilise UK society. That would be a minor lie for them compared with their history.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
David Smith, Managing Director of POL in 2010, doesn't seem to remember much....if anything.
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Hasn't come across as being as directly dishonest as others. Not sure if that means he's just a better liar or more competent and has covered his tracks slightly better. Thought the lawyer for interested parties after asking the chair to reafirm rights against self incrimination might have had something up her sleeve, rather than the document was a cover up, innit eh.

Chairman was getting quite irate earlier with smith as well. The two witnesses yesterday were also quite revealing.
 
Sooty59 said:
If there’s documented evidence ie emails etc proving beyond doubt she knew. Then she should be prosecuted for perjury for starters. These types of individuals think they can get away with anything. If it were you or I we would be prosecuted. One law for the rich & one for the poor & I wouldn’t describe myself as poor but compared to these people I guess I am. 🤬
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I doubt she testified in court or under oath, so perjury is out of the question, conspiring to pervert the course of justice might be an option if she allowed prosecutions to proceed while knowing that there were serious flaws with Horizon, or if she acted to suppress evidence of such, but I think that may be hard to prove.

I have a nasty feeling that the blame for this scandal will be spread sufficiently widely and thinly that it'll be impossible to charge anyone with a specific crime.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
Hasn't come across as being as directly dishonest as others. Not sure if that means he's just a better liar or more competent and has covered his tracks slightly better. Thought the lawyer for interested parties after asking the chair to reafirm rights against self incrimination might have had something up her sleeve, rather than the document was a cover up, innit eh.

Chairman was getting quite irate earlier with smith as well. The two witnesses yesterday were also quite revealing.
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Smith was the MD and he finds himself remembering nothing. That is until he's throwing junior colleagues under a bus. Then his memory picks up.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
I doubt she testified in court or under oath, so perjury is out of the question, conspiring to pervert the course of justice might be an option if she allowed prosecutions to proceed while knowing that there were serious flaws with Horizon, or if she acted to suppress evidence of such, but I think that may be hard to prove.

I have a nasty feeling that the blame for this scandal will be spread sufficiently widely and thinly that it'll be impossible to charge anyone with a specific crime.
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Like I said one rule for the rich & another for the poor.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Not really, just a recognition that no matter how reprehensible their behaviour was, it is unlikely to have crossed the threshold of a criminal offence.
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I’m sure they’ll have the best legal team persuading the courts black is white & money doesn’t come into it! Well bugger me (not literally)
 
Lost Seasider said:
I doubt she testified in court or under oath, so perjury is out of the question, conspiring to pervert the course of justice might be an option if she allowed prosecutions to proceed while knowing that there were serious flaws with Horizon, or if she acted to suppress evidence of such, but I think that may be hard to prove.

I have a nasty feeling that the blame for this scandal will be spread sufficiently widely and thinly that it'll be impossible to charge anyone with a specific crime.
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Conspiracy to commit perjury, with a lot of senior managers throwing each other under the bus, sooner or later someone facing charges is going to looks for a suitable superior to their just following orders defence. Can imagine some of the investigation team will be under some pressure and low enough in the organisation and working class enough for the CPS to go after them with vigor. Saying that having listened to some of them giving evidence theres a few might need to be treated as special needs in any court case.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
Conspiracy to commit perjury, with a lot of senior managers throwing each other under the bus, sooner or later someone facing charges is going to looks for a suitable superior to their just following orders defence. Can imagine some of the investigation team will be under some pressure and low enough in the organisation and working class enough for the CPS to go after them with vigor. Saying that having listened to some of them giving evidence theres a few might need to be treated as special needs in any court case.
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Is that a separate offence? If it is, then is it in any meaningful way different to conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

In what way might that offence be committed? Does that require that an individual might in advance decide to commit perjury, and another individual might, knowing that fact, assist or instruct them?

I can't see it. The impression I get is of some very dim people being given a great deal of powers that they were utterly incompetent to use properly, but the idea that these morons were capable of engaging in some kind of massive conspiracy seems implausible to me, if only because they're morons, and they'd have left a massive trail of breadcrumbs that even the dumbest investigative journalist could easily follow.
 
If this was the States, the threshold for racketeering charges would have been crossed. They knew there was a problem with Horizon, yet continued to demand money, with threats, from innocent sub postmasters. There is now plenty of documentation that Paula Vennells et al knew, prosecutions were still followed, people still killed themselves. The money illegally obtained boosted their profits and increased their bonuses.

If the CPS cannot make cases from this, they should be replaced with a few criminal lawyers who can.

This isn't politics, it's not a game, people died because of this abomination.

And while we're on it, what happened to Fujitsu not getting any more contracts wholst the enquiry was going on? They got a new one today. Mind you, with their links to Infosys, why should we be surprised?
 
Lost Seasider said:
Is that a separate offence? If it is, then is it in any meaningful way different to conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

In what way might that offence be committed? Does that require that an individual might in advance decide to commit perjury, and another individual might, knowing that fact, assist or instruct them?

I can't see it. The impression I get is of some very dim people being given a great deal of powers that they were utterly incompetent to use properly, but the idea that these morons were capable of engaging in some kind of massive conspiracy seems implausible to me, if only because they're morons, and they'd have left a massive trail of breadcrumbs that even the dumbest investigative journalist could easily follow.
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Not a lawyer, but from what I understand conspiracy is a separate offence, saying that most of the lawyers i know are American, where conspiracy to .... (Add whatever you want) Is a means to an end in roping all kinds people into illegal activity, I'm sure it's a thing though under English law. No matter how stupid and incompetent post office management people were / are and some of them seem to be on the special needs vulnerable person scale, stupidity and incompetence are not defences under law. From the testimonies I've watched and listened to there isnt just a trail of breadcrumbs they've left a trail or massive pile of Baguettes, croissants, paninis and warburton loaves for people to follow.

There was obviously a culture of just simply following orders and ingrained processes.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I doubt she testified in court or under oath, so perjury is out of the question, conspiring to pervert the course of justice might be an option if she allowed prosecutions to proceed while knowing that there were serious flaws with Horizon, or if she acted to suppress evidence of such, but I think that may be hard to prove.

I have a nasty feeling that the blame for this scandal will be spread sufficiently widely and thinly that it'll be impossible to charge anyone with a specific crime.
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I suspect lying ( as she undoubtedly did ) to parliament might qualify as perjury
 
Alan Cook (MD 2006-10) now being questioned at the enquiry. He wrote in an e-mail (during his tenure) that the 'subbies' [sic] must be struggling so they've turned to defrauding the Post Office. Nice guy. Oh, he now regrets writing that.
 
He had no idea that all of these prosecutions against sub-postmasters were happening. However, he was a member of the Executive team, minutes of which included e-attachments detailing all ongoing prosecutions over £100k.
 
If anyone thinks that anything much will happen to anyone from the Post Office then they've not been paying attention in the past.
 
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