Post Office Enquiry (Paula Vennells on 22-24 May)

Delfino said:
Singh's email started with 'having read the papers....' ... Sir Wyn picked him up on that too.
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Yep. I mean, when there's someone being questioned who has just told a clear, bare-faced lie, why bother asking him anything else? It's all just nonsense and nothing he's says can be trusted.
 
I think this destroying minutes is going to come back to haunt them again and again. Despite the protestations that it was the Civil lawyers, it just highlights to Joe Bloggs that they knew stuff that they did not want disclosed. All the arguments about angels on the head of a pin about what should and shouldn't have been disclosed and when, meat and drink to damages claims.

I had assumed that this Gareth Jenkins was the chief villain, but the evidence of the last two days that he was NEVER actually instructed in his duties to both defence and prosecution as an Expert is utterly unbelievable.

And at the end of the day, this bunch of lying, incompetent buckpassers caused suicides, bankruptcies, lost relationships, mental health issues, purely to protect the reputation of their businesses. "I never considered " was a common response, you were paid to consider, you were / are officers of the court!
 
BFC_53 said:
Yep. I mean, when there's someone being questioned who has just told a clear, bare-faced lie, why bother asking him anything else? It's all just nonsense and nothing he's says can be trusted.
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Because that elicits more lies from a witness on oath. There is a whole chain of lies that will eventually lead far up into the senior management, execs and PO Board. The more evidence of this that is documented in the public inquiry will convince it that there was a widespread conspiracy to commit a cover-up over the fraud.

What must not be overlooked also was that this conspiracy was cascaded down by the executives and senior managers even to the level of the Post Office Area Managers who were in direct contact with the SPMs. They were all instructed to tell each and every SPM that they were unique and the only person having cash shortfall problems. The conspiracy included the telephone “help-line” operators as trained and directed by Angela van den Bogerd.
 
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Execute the lot of them..

I thought Local Government (which I have been in for over 40yrs) were incompetent fu**wits on occasions, but this Private entity makes us look super competent
 
Limechase said:
I thought Local Government (which I have been in for over 40yrs) were incompetent fu**wits on occasions, but this Private entity makes us look super competent
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It’s all part of the creeping malaise over the past 30+ years for those high up in the civil service, local government, public utilities and privatised government services to award themselves increasingly higher salary packages, heading over a million £££s, as if they were dynamic captains of industry.

Whereas, in fact, they are mediocre jobsworths who have slowly climbed up the organisation through many decades of pusillanimity and become morally corrupted into their institutionalised apparatchik behaviour. And will do anything to protect their undeserved privileges.
 
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Archibald Knox said:
Because that elicits more lies from a witness on oath. There is a whole chain of lies that will eventually lead far up into the senior management, execs and PO Board. The more evidence of this that is documented in the public inquiry will convince it that there was a widespread conspiracy to commit a cover-up over the fraud.

What must not be overlooked also was that this conspiracy was cascaded down by the executives and senior managers even to the level of the Post Office Area Managers who were in direct contact with the SPMs. They were all instructed to tell each and every SPM that they were unique and the only person having cash shortfall problems. The conspiracy included the telephone “help-line” operators as trained and directed by Angela van den Bogerd.
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In the meantime, as senior people in the PO, they were no doubt getting bonuses on the back of dubious profits, as sub postmasters paid their own money in for non existent shortfalls.
 
Archibald Knox said:
Because that elicits more lies from a witness on oath. There is a whole chain of lies that will eventually lead far up into the senior management, execs and PO Board. The more evidence of this that is documented in the public inquiry will convince it that there was a widespread conspiracy to commit a cover-up over the fraud.

What must not be overlooked also was that this conspiracy was cascaded down by the executives and senior managers even to the level of the Post Office Area Managers who were in direct contact with the SPMs. They were all instructed to tell each and every SPM that they were unique and the only person having cash shortfall problems. The conspiracy included the telephone “help-line” operators as trained and directed by Angela van den Bogerd.
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It’s like some weird sci-fi movie where everyone has been programmed to say the same things, except the movie would probably win a raspberry for being too far fetched.
 
While Mr Singh made a good job of incriminating himself today, the endemic amnesia among PO execs was still all too evident.

It's just a shame that Jason Beer can't ask for them all to be waterboarded.
That would improve their memories.
 
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Surprised that the lawyers for the interested parties didn't question Singh apart from one, thought they'd rip him a new one. They've generally been much less restrained then the enquiry lawyers.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
My thoughts
The two older male barristers are ruthless
Thought they’d have ripped Singh a new one
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I wonder if they thought they didn’t needed to. He couldn't or wouldn't answer anything. He won't come out of the Inquiry looking good and I expect he'll get charged with conspiracy anyway for his none disclosure.

Not sure they were present.
 
I'm no solicitor but know right from wrong,.

If it were up to me the whole lot of them should be prosecuted for perjury. Any solicitors, barristers etc amongst them should be struck off, any pensions they have should be stopped and repaid, there properties sold to pay towards the costs of the court and all of them put in jail for lengthy periods. In my book it's a good job hanging is no longer on the statute book. Bastards, every one of them.

Just to add i would also confiscate their passports now.
 
Towerpower99 said:
What really gets me is everyone of them start off by giving an apology for the terrible things that have happened to innocent sub postmasters… and then self preservation and lies kick in to save there own skin… scumbags…
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The only thing they are truly sorry for is getting found out. Even now each and every one of them is happy to incriminate someone else to save their own skin. They’re totally devoid of any morals.
 
Towerpower99 said:
How’s Altman doing.. I’m on holiday and can’t follow it..
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Better than many of the train wrecks that have masqueraded as senior management and senior legal advisors but not great. At least not claiming he can't save or print a document, but anyone looking at his answers might come to the conclusion he's not a very good barrister
 
Costero Poderoso said:
Better than many of the train wrecks that have masqueraded as senior management and senior legal advisors but not great. At least not claiming he can't save or print a document, but anyone looking at his answers might come to the conclusion he's not a very good barrister
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Thought he might have his ducks in a row being a KC… I’m back a few days before Vennells evidence… can’t wait,,,
 
Towerpower99 said:
Thought he might have his ducks in a row being a KC… I’m back a few days before Vennells evidence… can’t wait,,,
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There have been numerous KCs testifying, none of them have impressed. Makes me wonder a) just how difficult is it to qualify as a lawyer and b) gain silk. Between the various muppets at the PO, suella braverman doing her impression of the most stupid person in any room including one that has Piers Morgan in it and kier starmer who's hardly an intellectual collosus, I have to question the overall quality of the legal system and it's practitioners. The thing that really gets me is just the complete lack of even legal curiosity they all display
 
What about the lawyers and judges at the many trials of the postmasters how on earth did nobody twig that so many couldn’t be on the fiddle 🤷🏽‍♂️ the hairless 😉 KC is brilliant he keeps saying “I put it to you” when he really means I put it to all of you your a bunch of lying bast..ds !!
 
Tangerine phil said:
What about the lawyers and judges at the many trials of the postmasters how on earth did nobody twig that so many couldn’t be on the fiddle 🤷🏽‍♂️ the hairless 😉 KC is brilliant he keeps saying “I put it to you” when he really means I put it to all of you your a bunch of lying bast..ds !!
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They split the big picture up into lots of small pictures, and all the small pictures looked guilty, and the big picture was never tested in court.
 
Tangerine phil said:
What about the lawyers and judges at the many trials of the postmasters how on earth did nobody twig that so many couldn’t be on the fiddle 🤷🏽‍♂️ the hairless 😉 KC is brilliant he keeps saying “I put it to you” when he really means I put it to all of you your a bunch of lying bast..ds !!
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There's 92 Crown Courts in the UK and 3470 judges
The criminal trials stretched over 15 years so whilst the number of convictions ( over 900 ) is startling is amounts to circa 60 per year and many of those will have pleaded guilty so actual number that went to a contested trial far lower
The chances of any judge dealing with more than one must be low so I can see how it never really flagged up with the system
Of course the PO / their employees and the firms of solicitors and barristers they used knew more about the scale though maybe never the totals as it was never all with one firm
My understanding is that POL did believe that there was a high level of dishonesty within the sub-postmasters so maybe they genuinely thought Horizon was highlighting what they always knew - though many seem too thick to even analysis what they had for breakfast
The level of incompetency I have seen amongst those cross-examined at the enquiry is incredible
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
There's 92 Crown Courts in the UK and 3470 judges
The criminal trials stretched over 15 years so whilst the number of convictions ( over 900 ) is startling is amounts to circa 60 per year and many of those will have pleaded guilty so actual number that went to a contested trial far lower
The chances of any judge dealing with more than one must be low so I can see how it never really flagged up with the system
Of course the PO / their employees and the firms of solicitors and barristers they used knew more about the scale though maybe never the totals as it was never all with one firm
My understanding is that POL did believe that there was a high level of dishonesty within the sub-postmasters so maybe they genuinely thought Horizon was highlighting what they always knew - though many seem too thick to even analysis what they had for breakfast
The level of incompetency I have seen amongst those cross-examined at the enquiry is incredible
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The Post office is riddled with people who started off pretty much at entry level plodders and slowly over the years they do basic internal 3 day crap courses that then allow them to move up a level…until they reach way above what they are capable of and they join the rest of the blaggers and incompetents…
 
Towerpower99 said:
The Post office is riddled with people who started off pretty much at entry level plodders and slowly over the years they do basic internal 3 day crap courses that then allow them to move up a level…until they reach way above what they are capable of and they join the rest of the blaggers and incompetents…
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There are so many if not most corporations and government agencies across the globe that are run exactly the same way that the PO is run.

Today's witness, exalted internally by PO management, and encouraged to just keep on doing what he was doing, and he in turn is encouraging his subordinates to behave in the same way. The whole organisation becomes sociopathic.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
There are so many if not most corporations and government agencies across the globe that are run exactly the same way that the PO is run.

Today's witness, exalted internally by PO management, and encouraged to just keep on doing what he was doing, and he in turn is encouraging his subordinates to behave in the same way. The whole organisation becomes sociopathic.
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And the NHS.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
There are so many if not most corporations and government agencies across the globe that are run exactly the same way that the PO is run.

Today's witness, exalted internally by PO management, and encouraged to just keep on doing what he was doing, and he in turn is encouraging his subordinates to behave in the same way. The whole organisation becomes sociopathic.
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Are you referring to the wonderful Mr Ismay, Head of Accounts?
 
Towerpower99 said:
The Post office is riddled with people who started off pretty much at entry level plodders and slowly over the years they do basic internal 3 day crap courses that then allow them to move up a level…until they reach way above what they are capable of and they join the rest of the blaggers and incompetents…
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All overpaid with gold plate pensions

The lack of competency is a repeat feature
 
Towerpower99 said:
The Post office is riddled with people who started off pretty much at entry level plodders and slowly over the years they do basic internal 3 day crap courses that then allow them to move up a level…until they reach way above what they are capable of and they join the rest of the blaggers and incompetents…
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It’s called being promoted to a level of incompetency
 
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic. There are a fair few posters on here forever justifying huge CEO, chair, director,, etc pay packets on the grounds of all their skills and responsibilities. Yet when something goes pear shaped, all of a sudden it is not their responsibility.

Utilities, Mobile Phone providers, Food manufacturers, bankers, they are all the same.
 
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Length of service promotion.The good old civil service used to be a prime practitioner of this principle.People in positions of authority who couldn't find their own arse using both hands.
Towerpower99 said:
The Post office is riddled with people who started off pretty much at entry level plodders and slowly over the years they do basic internal 3 day crap courses that then allow them to move up a level…until they reach way above what they are capable of and they join the rest of the blaggers and incompetents…
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Goldfinger said:
Length of service promotion.The good old civil service used to be a prime practitioner of this principle.People in positions of authority who couldn't find their own arse using both hands.
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I was in the civil service for 32 years. I worked with Process workers who had the intellect of a boiled potato. I worked with some senior civil servants who were time servers and some who got that high with no talent whatsoever. But I also worked with ordinary people who weren't pulling up trees but who worked damned hard. I also worked with very talented people way beyond my ability. And that's the point. The Civil Service reflects our society...because it is staffed from our society. People of all abilities. Some who should go further, others who get too far. That's life.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I was in the civil service for 32 years. I worked with Process workers who had the intellect of a boiled potato. I worked with some senior civil servants who were time servers and some who got that high with no talent whatsoever. But I also worked with ordinary people who weren't pulling up trees but who worked damned hard. I also worked with very talented people way beyond my ability. And that's the point. The Civil Service reflects our society...because it is staffed from our society. People of all abilities. Some who should go further, others who get too far. That's life.
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How far did the very talented people get? Unless their faces fitted I'd hazard a guess at not too far.
During my brief dalliance with the civ I worked in the vicinity of a woman who was the groups budget manager, a post created specifically for her.
She didn't know how to calculate a percentage, but had been there a long time.....

2 schools of thought in the civ, the cream rises to the top and shit floats.I saw plenty of the latter.
Promoted as mates with managers, having affairs with managers, related to managers.Job applications written for them, interview panels including their associates, given the questions beforehand and mock interviews to ensure the right things said on the day to persuade the independence panel member.
The job advert may as well have said unless your name is X then you're wasting your time applying.
But back to Vennells I hope she gets strung up.
 
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Goldfinger said:
How far did the very talented people get? Unless their faces fitted I'd hazard a guess at not too far.
During my brief dalliance with the civ I worked in the vicinity of a woman who was the groups budget manager, a post created specifically for her.
She didn't know how to calculate a percentage, but had been there a long time.....

2 schools of thought in the civ, the cream rises to the top and shit floats.I saw plenty of the latter.
Promoted as mates with managers, having affairs with managers, related to managers.Job applications written for them, interview panels including their associates, given the questions beforehand and mock interviews to ensure the right things said on the day to persuade the independence panel member.
The job advert may as well have said unless your name is X then you're wasting your time applying.
But back to Vennells I hope she gets strung up.
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I had quite a wide experience of the civil service. There were those who were as you describe but there were lots of good people too. Many who wouldn't go high up but who put in a good shift. Those, to me, are good people.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I had quite a wide experience of the civil service. There were those who were as you describe but there were lots of good people too. Many who wouldn't go high up but who put in a good shift. Those, to me, are good people.
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I agree entirely 66.
Many hard working and knowledgeable people who were overlooked .
The chiefs need the indians to do the work in order to look good themselves.
A classic strategy is " send it to me" whereupon it's copied, pasted and sent on,of course bearing the name of the manager not the author.
 
Agree with the comments above… I bet the decent hard workers overlooked in the past for promotion/salary increase and recognition by these incompetents are now having their moment watching the inquiry like us with a large box of popcorn….
 
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Can't wait until it finally comes to 'Penalty Time' when the judgement is over and the Sentences are handed out.
Hope Vennals and the rest are quaking in their shoes
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I was in the civil service for 32 years. I worked with Process workers who had the intellect of a boiled potato. I worked with some senior civil servants who were time servers and some who got that high with no talent whatsoever. But I also worked with ordinary people who weren't pulling up trees but who worked damned hard. I also worked with very talented people way beyond my ability. And that's the point. The Civil Service reflects our society...because it is staffed from our society. People of all abilities. Some who should go further, others who get too far. That's life.
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1966, I was in the CS for 40 years starting in Blackpool GPO which qualified for a CS job. Finished at Luton Airport as Customs Officer.
After my 40 years got a job with Beds Police for 8 years as MrsDP was still working. (she's a few years younger than I. 😜)
 
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Costero Poderoso said:
There are so many if not most corporations and government agencies across the globe that are run exactly the same way that the PO is run.

Today's witness, exalted internally by PO management, and encouraged to just keep on doing what he was doing, and he in turn is encouraging his subordinates to behave in the same way. The whole organisation becomes sociopathic.
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There are many good employees at lower levels. The problem is they will question things hence they never get moved up the ladder.
 
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