Should football clubs be forced to recruit black managers?

T

Tangojoe

Well-known member
Football clubs should be forced by law to recruit black managers according to Jason Lee, equalities chief of the PFA, as one third of professional players are black, Asian or minority ethnic but only 5 out of 91 league managers are BAME.

Surely being a footballer is not the same as managing a football club. Are they not different professions requiring completely different skill sets? You might as well say one third of professional footballers are BAME so one third of accountants should be the same. If the PFA said one third of football coaches should be black, that would make more sense.

So, my question is should football clubs be legally required to employ managers of ethnic minority as stated by the PFA and how would that law be applied?
 
The straight forward answer is no but it's not as simplistic as that.
I think over time we will see more black people getting managers jobs but it takes time to evolve. It's barely forty years ago that there were very few black players playing the game but over the course of these last forty or so years we've seen more black people making their name in the game and whereas with most players back then once their football career was over they didn't stay around football. In todays age there's a lot more people staying on in the game and there are a great many more roles now than there were. I don't know what percentage of players playing in the top four divisions are black and that would be interested to know but in time I expect more and more black people to be getting roles as managers because they will be every bit as suitable as a white person. It will happen but I accept it's probably not happening as quickly as it should based on what I've just said. Also have to factor in the number of black players coming in from overseas who may not stay in the country once their contract or career is over too.
 
20togo said:
The straight forward answer is no but it's not as simplistic as that.
I think over time we will see more black people getting managers jobs but it takes time to evolve. It's barely forty years ago that there were very few black players playing the game but over the course of these last forty or so years we've seen more black people making their name in the game and whereas with most players back then once their football career was over they didn't stay around football. In todays age there's a lot more people staying on in the game and there are a great many more roles now than there were. I don't know what percentage of players playing in the top four divisions are black and that would be interested to know but in time I expect more and more black people to be getting roles as managers because they will be every bit as suitable as a white person. It will happen but I accept it's probably not happening as quickly as it should based on what I've just said. Also have to factor in the number of black players coming in from overseas who may not stay in the country once their contract or career is over too.
Click to expand...
Isn't it the case that fewer people stay in the game because they don't need to financially?
 
Wizaard said:
Isn't it the case that fewer people stay in the game because they don't need to financially?
Click to expand...
I would certainly say more are staying in the game now than there were back then. I'd also say that generally it's only at the top level that the financial rewards from football mean they can retire comfortably. Think it's quite the thing now to get your coaching badges done and follow that path wherever it takes you.
 
I am against positive discrimination. Base it on talent and talent alone. The old fossils will die off and the next generation will be more enlightened.
 
A club should be able to recruit whoever they want, the best man/ woman for the job. Why should someone get a job based off an arbitrary characteristic? How would you feel if the club had a choice between Paul Ince and Neil Critchley, but had to employ Ince because he's black?
 
We have employment laws in this country that are supposed to offer equality. This covers recruitment. However I am not naive to believe that there is never discrimination. The higher the job is in the scale ( any job, any industry), its always who you know not what you know.
 
Insider said:
It shouldn't be a question.
As has already been said, you should get the job because you are the best candidate.
Click to expand...
It isn't a question. It's never going to happen.
There's a world of difference between equality of opportunity and 'forced' to take someone on.
 
basilrobbie said:
I don't think any such law would work. Giving BAME candidates the same access to interviews for posts is, I think, a different thing.
Click to expand...

Giving certain candidates guaranteed interviews is different but I am not sure if it makes any big difference and whether it solves too much.

I am sure there are other potential problems but 2 that I'd think of immediately are:

1. Being granted a guaranteed interview will not be worth two bob to a certain candidate if those in charge of the decision making have decided that they are not going to award that certain candidate the job under any circumstances. I say it's not worth two bob but obviously the candidate could gain experience which may help him in the future, I mean they are still not going to get the job they are applying for at this point in time.

2. A decision has been made that 4 candidates are going to be interviewed for a job and 25% of those interviewed must come from a certain group, five people apply for the job and in the pre-interview evaluation, 4 of the candidates score 99% and the other scores 7%, the candidate scoring 7% is guaranteed an interview and this results in 1 of the high scoring candidates being denied an interview and the opportunity to demonstrate his/her skills and also means that the club may end up employing an inferior candidate.
 
groundsman said:
We have employment laws in this country that are supposed to offer equality. This covers recruitment. However I am not naive to believe that there is never discrimination. The higher the job is in the scale ( any job, any industry), its always who you know not what you know.
Click to expand...

I hear what you say but I wouldn't say that is always the case.
 
BFC_Aspie said:
A club should be able to recruit whoever they want, the best man/ woman for the job. Why should someone get a job based off an arbitrary characteristic? How would you feel if the club had a choice between Paul Ince and Neil Critchley, but had to employ Ince because he's black?
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with race and I am not suggesting that Critchley won't be a better manager than Ince - or that he will be.

Ince arrived at a pre-season game (2013/14 ???) with Kendal with 7 players and despite having his hands tied behind his back, he somehow managed to grind out some great results at the start of the season.

Yes there is no doubt that we rode our luck at times and it wasn't very entertaining but although he had very little to work with, he set what little he had up very well and made us hard to beat.

I don't think anybody really thought we could keep it up but we somehow managed to stay up and that was mainly because of our early season achievements.
 
There’s a lot of chaffing about meritocracy. Best person for the job - blah blah blah.

But what we actually need is a level playing field.

Both in terms of candidates coming through.

And those selecting them.

A lot of smug, over promoted, over paid, EFL types sitting in judgment on who does and doesn’t get the job doesn’t inspire confidence.

In short - the system is rigged.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Giving certain candidates guaranteed interviews is different but I am not sure if it makes any big difference and whether it solves too much.

I am sure there are other potential problems but 2 that I'd think of immediately are:

1. Being granted a guaranteed interview will not be worth two bob to a certain candidate if those in charge of the decision making have decided that they are not going to award that certain candidate the job under any circumstances. I say it's not worth two bob but obviously the candidate could gain experience which may help him in the future, I mean they are still not going to get the job they are applying for at this point in time.

2. A decision has been made that 4 candidates are going to be interviewed for a job and 25% of those interviewed must come from a certain group, five people apply for the job and in the pre-interview evaluation, 4 of the candidates score 99% and the other scores 7%, the candidate scoring 7% is guaranteed an interview and this results in 1 of the high scoring candidates being denied an interview and the opportunity to demonstrate his/her skills and also means that the club may end up employing an inferior candidate.
Click to expand...
Most major companies offer a guaranteed interview to the disabled. Is that a step too far? Just opening the debate.
 
Just turn that statement on its head, Football clubs should be forced to recruit white managers. It’s a dangerous game to play if you start forcing a quota system on football. Lots of very good players/coaches will be overlooked and decide their future lies elsewhere. Take a look at South Africa. Everyone will have their own thoughts positive or negative but surely the fairest way is to give the job to the person you think is best qualified to do his/her job regardless of the colour of the person.
 
I think the initiative is about giving opportunities where there doesn't appear to be any.....NOT forcing teams to take on black managers.

Of the 3 or 4 'black' managers out of a possible 92 in the EFL.....There are 38% 'black' footballers in those teams
Over the next 5 -10 years, I can see more and more black players looking at coaching and management.
But as said.....If you have just earned millions over your career.....why would you want the uncertainty of becoming a manager and the 'cr@p' it brings.
Those that want to do it....like Sol Campbell will keep trying and IF they are any good, other teams will come in for them.

I saw that KnobberOnline have said they want Chris Hughton once Neil goes to a big club.....he could have the pick of any L1 and a lot of Championship clubs (Bristol City seriously considering him at the moment)....he's good, he's proved himself.....but even he said it was a total struggle to get involved in football management.....he's worked his way to where he is now.....others (White, Black, Male, Female) will have to do the same.

The way to change any system is to realise that the system is broken and change it from the inside.
 
B_Side_The_C_Side said:
I think the initiative is about giving opportunities where there doesn't appear to be any.....NOT forcing teams to take on black managers.

Of the 3 or 4 'black' managers out of a possible 92 in the EFL.....There are 38% 'black' footballers in those teams
Over the next 5 -10 years, I can see more and more black players looking at coaching and management.
But as said.....If you have just earned millions over your career.....why would you want the uncertainty of becoming a manager and the 'cr@p' it brings.
Those that want to do it....like Sol Campbell will keep trying and IF they are any good, other teams will come in for them.

I saw that KnobberOnline have said they want Chris Hughton once Neil goes to a big club.....he could have the pick of any L1 and a lot of Championship clubs (Bristol City seriously considering him at the moment)....he's good, he's proved himself.....but even he said it was a total struggle to get involved in football management.....he's worked his way to where he is now.....others (White, Black, Male, Female) will have to do the same.

The way to change any system is to realise that the system is broken and change it from the inside.
Click to expand...

B Side

Some good and fair points but is the system broken and does it need to be changed ?

There is a greater percentage of black players than of black managers and that is a fact but is that because any chairmen are deliberately not employing black managers or because they are perhaps even reluctant to do so ?

Should the proportion of black managers necessarily be reflected in management ?

As somebody has already alluded to above, different skill sets are required.

I can only speak for myself and personally I couldn't care less what skin colour a potential manager had and I have no evidence to suggest that than any chairmen are discriminating on the grounds of colour.

As you suggest, I think if anybody is good enough they will make it.

You referred to Sol Campbell and recently there was a fuss about how Lampard and Gerrard were afforded opportunities that he wasn't but were they given their current positions because of their skin colour ?

Lampard has obviously been given a great opportunity at Chelsea but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of his previous achievements at Chelsea - record goalscorer and legend - and because of his relative success at Derby and not because of his skin colour ?

Gerrard has also been afforded a great opportunity at Rangers but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of time spent in the Liverpool coaching set up and after making a magnificent contribution to that club as a player and not because of his skin colour ?

Celtic have only once in their history given their managers job to somebody with no previous managerial experience - and will probably never do so again ! - and that was to John Barnes, he wasn't afforded the opportunity because of his skin colour and if he had been successful at Celtic I am sure he would have been considered for other jobs - perhaps Liverpool - if he had been successful.

No doubt there will be a number of initiatives and/or incentives to try and increase the percentage of black managers and these initiatives/incentives and hopefully such schemes will help ensure that no potentially great black managers are lost to the game.

Of course, such schemes will not be available to potential white managers who will be automatically disadvantaged and we are back to the potential issues caused by positive discrimination such as the loss of potentially great white managers.

Maybe I should have just said give the best man the job every time ?
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
B Side

Some good and fair points but is the system broken and does it need to be changed ?

There is a greater percentage of black players than of black managers and that is a fact but is that because any chairmen are deliberately not employing black managers or because they are perhaps even reluctant to do so ?

Should the proportion of black managers necessarily be reflected in management ?

As somebody has already alluded to above, different skill sets are required.

I can only speak for myself and personally I couldn't care less what skin colour a potential manager had and I have no evidence to suggest that than any chairmen are discriminating on the grounds of colour.

As you suggest, I think if anybody is good enough they will make it.

You referred to Sol Campbell and recently there was a fuss about how Lampard and Gerrard were afforded opportunities that he wasn't but were they given their current positions because of their skin colour ?

Lampard has obviously been given a great opportunity at Chelsea but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of his previous achievements at Chelsea - record goalscorer and legend - and because of his relative success at Derby and not because of his skin colour ?

Gerrard has also been afforded a great opportunity at Rangers but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of time spent in the Liverpool coaching set up and after making a magnificent contribution to that club as a player and not because of his skin colour ?

Celtic have only once in their history given their managers job to somebody with no previous managerial experience - and will probably never do so again ! - and that was to John Barnes, he wasn't afforded the opportunity because of his skin colour and if he had been successful at Celtic I am sure he would have been considered for other jobs - perhaps Liverpool - if he had been successful.

No doubt there will be a number of initiatives and/or incentives to try and increase the percentage of black managers and these initiatives/incentives and hopefully such schemes will help ensure that no potentially great black managers are lost to the game.

Of course, such schemes will not be available to potential white managers who will be automatically disadvantaged and we are back to the potential issues caused by positive discrimination such as the loss of potentially great white managers.

Maybe I should have just said give the best man the job every time ?
Click to expand...


I think you sum the position up well 2020. Football club owners, who are taking a massive risk, will be looking to protect their investments by appointing the best person for the job. Whether that's a white manager or a black manager is up to him or her. Saying only 5 out of 91 league managers are BAME is as stupid as saying none out of 91 league managers are women. If BAME or women are the best qualified and most likely to succeed they should get the job and they probably would.

What I find particularly worrying about the OP is the statement from the PFA that
"Football clubs should be forced by law to recruit black managers". From a seemingly respectable organisation, such a statement is ridiculous and inflammatory, and probably racist in itself.
 
There is a greater percentage of black players than of black managers and that is a fact but is that because any chairmen are deliberately not employing black managers or because they are perhaps even reluctant to do so.....That's something that nobody can ever say or show it's occoured apart from a chairman that has a job available and if they make that information public ....but 'why' would a chairman be reluctant? What has ANY 'black' manager ever done that makes a chairman 'reluctant' to give it to a black manager????...there isn't a bias as it's 99% based on the best 'person' for that job...at that time...and x amount of months before the chairman will sack them for poor results....

Should the proportion of black managers necessarily be reflected in management....There are only 8 English managers (Rodgers says he's Irish) in the Premiership out of 20..... but English players make up 68% of players in the Prem....so following your 1st statement, Chairman are openly biased by not employing 'English' managers...but that's not based on the colour of their skin....English managers are just rubbish at managing....get a Scotsman, German or an Italian.......for every Pep......you get a Neil Warnock.

As somebody has already alluded to above, different skill sets are required.....Lost on this one...are you saying that (a) Black Managers have a different skill set? (b) Black Managers 'don't' ever have the skill set or (c) Black managers cant obtain the skill set......and whats that based on...For every John Barnes, Paul Ince.....I will give you a Lee Clarke, Neil MacDonald & Colin Hendry

I can only speak for myself and personally I couldn't care less what skin colour a potential manager had and I have no evidence to suggest that than any chairmen are discriminating on the grounds of colour.....So you're saying you don't believe your 1st question???

As you suggest, I think if anybody is good enough they will make it....Yes, that's the ONLY thing being a manger should be about

You referred to Sol Campbell and recently there was a fuss about how Lampard and Gerrard were afforded opportunities that he wasn't but were they given their current positions because of their skin colour ?.....NO and I doubt that has never been considered, raised or even thought of by anyone about Lampard or Gerrard....but it has about Campbell..

Lampard has obviously been given a great opportunity at Chelsea but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of his previous achievements at Chelsea - record goalscorer and legend - and because of his relative success at Derby and not because of his skin colour ?....and that's why Spurs gave Ozzie Ardiles a chance at management, Middlesborough gave Woodgate a chance at management....it has nothing to do with skin colour....football teams give ex-players a chance at management.....as you can obviously see from the 2 examples you give below...for every Gerrard.....there is a Barnes.....

Gerrard has also been afforded a great opportunity at Rangers but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of time spent in the Liverpool coaching set up and after making a magnificent contribution to that club as a player and not because of his skin colour ?
Celtic have only once in their history given their managers job to somebody with no previous managerial experience - and will probably never do so again ! - and that was to John Barnes, he wasn't afforded the opportunity because of his skin colour and if he had been successful at Celtic I am sure he would have been considered for other jobs - perhaps Liverpool - if he had been successful....agree

No doubt there will be a number of initiatives and/or incentives to try and increase the percentage of black managers and these initiatives/incentives and hopefully such schemes will help ensure that no potentially great black managers are lost to the game.....Hopefully and that's why Jason Lee brought this up as it may uncover new managers who wouldn't have tried in the current set up.

Of course, such schemes will not be available to potential white managers who will be automatically disadvantaged and we are back to the potential issues caused by positive discrimination such as the loss of potentially great white managers......WHY did you have to have a little dig and bring it back to 'white' managers......You said "I think if anybody is good enough they will make it" but you again just dismiss your own comments.....Black, White, Brown, Asian, Male, Female.....if they are good they will make it......Just look at Evett......excellent in the non-league...now moving up.....it's NOT about the colour of his skin...he was given an opportunity.....so why do a Trump and intimate 'white' managers are going to lose out.....as with any job...start off, do well, get promoted, try new things...move up the corporate ladder.....basic......but it's how good you are.....NOT skin colour....and NO 'white' people will miss out as you say.....it's not going to be black v white.

Maybe I should have just said give the best man the job every time......Give everyone the opportunity...and the best person for that job will then be employed......no matter what their skin colour is.....Akinfenwa at Wycome was able to really motivate players in the last 2 play off games and I think players like him will add to any club management in the leagues going forward....lets hope he will be given an opportunity from ...Fans, Players and Chairman

tommytwojags said:
What I find particularly worrying about the OP is the statement from the PFA that
"Football clubs should be forced by law to recruit black managers". From a seemingly respectable organisation, such a statement is ridiculous and inflammatory, and probably racist in itself.
Click to expand...
The comment was made by Jason Lee who is the PFA's equalities executive (whatever that is?)
The PFA said they are using it as a talk point to raise the question of black players being able to move into management.
In saying it, he's got people talking about it and discussing it.....and debating if there is something to change
The more we talk about it the more we can change our views to give opportunities to those who maybe haven't had them.
I think the 'idea' of it becoming a law was Lee's way of saying it was the only way to make sure it happened.....It would never be a law...but it gets the hard of thinking riled up and blowing a gasket.
 
Tangojoe said:
Football clubs should be forced by law to recruit black managers according to Jason Lee, equalities chief of the PFA, as one third of professional players are black, Asian or minority ethnic but only 5 out of 91 league managers are BAME.

Surely being a footballer is not the same as managing a football club. Are they not different professions requiring completely different skill sets? You might as well say one third of professional footballers are BAME so one third of accountants should be the same. If the PFA said one third of football coaches should be black, that would make more sense.

So, my question is should football clubs be legally required to employ managers of ethnic minority as stated by the PFA and how would that law be applied?
Click to expand...

Racial discrimination enshrined in law......hmmm where have I heard that one before 🤔
 
B Side

My response added to you response was over 12,000 characters and you are only allowed 10,000 so I've had to chop it in two:


Side B


Before I begin to respond, I would like to thank you for a well considered and polite response regardless of whether or not we agree on any particular issues.

I have used capitals to respond to your points just to make it clear where I have responded and not because I wanted to shout at you:


B_Side_The_C_Side said:
There is a greater percentage of black players than of black managers and that is a fact but is that because any chairmen are deliberately not employing black managers or because they are perhaps even reluctant to do so.....That's something that nobody can ever say or show it's occoured apart from a chairman that has a job available and if they make that information public ....but 'why' would a chairman be reluctant? What has ANY 'black' manager ever done that makes a chairman 'reluctant' to give it to a black manager????...there isn't a bias as it's 99% based on the best 'person' for that job...at that time...and x amount of months before the chairman will sack them for poor results....

I THINK WE ARE PRETTY MUCH IN AGREEMENT HERE.

I SAID "PERHAPS EVEN RELUCTANT TO DO SO" JUST TO SEPARATE A CHAIRMAN WHO MIGHT BE RELUCTANT TO EMPLOY A BLACK MANAGER BECAUSE THE SUPPORTER BASE HAD PROBLEMS WITH A PREVIOUS MANAGER FROM CHAIRMEN WHO WOULD NEVER EMPLOY A BLACK MANAGER BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO. YOU COULD TAKE OUT "OR BECAUSE THEY ARE PERHAPS RELUCTANT TO DO SO" FROM MY RESPONSE AND IT WOULD READ ALMOST THE SAME.

Should the proportion of black managers necessarily be reflected in management....There are only 8 English managers (Rodgers says he's Irish) in the Premiership out of 20..... but English players make up 68% of players in the Prem....so following your 1st statement, Chairman are openly biased by not employing 'English' managers...but that's not based on the colour of their skin....English managers are just rubbish at managing....get a Scotsman, German or an Italian.......for every Pep......you get a Neil Warnock.

I THINK THAT YOU ANSWERING MY QUESTION WITH A "NO" HERE BUT I AM INTERESTED IN YOUR RESPONSE AS IT HIGHLIGHTS A FEW ISSUES.

I HAVE NO DOUBT YOUR STATS ARE CORRECT AND ROGERS IS IRISH.

YOU ARE SAYING CHAIRMEN ARE OPENLY BIASED BY NOT EMPLOYING ENGLISH MANAGERS BUT THAT'S NOT BASED ON THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN AND IS BECAUSE ENGLISH MANAGERS ARE JUST RUBBISH.

I FIND THIS INTERESTING BECAUSE:

1. I WOULDN'T KNOW WHETHER CHAIRMEN WERE BIASED AGAINST ENGLISH MANAGERS OR NOT BUT I WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED IF AT LEAST SOME CHAIRMEN FOLLOWED TRENDS. FOR EXAMPLE A CHAIRMEN COULD INTERVIEW AN ENGLISH MANAGER AND A GERMAN MANAGER AND RATE THEM EQUALLY BUT GO FOR THE GERMAN BECAUSE OF THE SUCCESS OF OTHER GERMAN MANAGERS OR HE COULD POSSIBLY GO WITH THE GERMAN BECAUSE OF LOWER SALARY EXPECTATIONS - I KNOW FRANZ BECKENBAUER WOULD BE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN MOST ENGLISH MANAGERS BUT MANY CLUBS (PARTICULARY IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP) HAVE BEEN RECRUITING MANAGERS WHO WERE PREVIOUS ASSISTANT MANAGERS OR ON THE COACHING STAFF OF BUNDESLIGA CLUBS AND OFTEN FROM A VALUE PERSPECTIVE - CHEAPER THAN ENGLISH EQUIVALENT. NO DOUBT THE VALUE ANGLE WILL DISAPPEAR IF THE GERMANS ARE SUCCESSFUL BUT THE TREND IS STILL LIKELY TO CONTINUE WITH THE SUCCESS FACTOR REPLACING THE VALUE FACTOR.

SAM ALLARDYCE IS CERTAINLY OF THE OPINION THAT CHAIRMAN ARE BIASED AGAINST ENGLISH MANAGERS AND HE FEELS THAT HE WOULD HAVE BE GIVEN BIGGER JOBS IF HIS SURNAME WAS ALLERDYCHIO.

2. YOU SAID, "ENGLISH MANAGERS ARE JUST RUBBISH AT MANAGING", I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH YOU HOLDING SUCH AN OPINION OR WITH YOU EXPRESSING THAT OPINION ON HERE BUT I DO WANDER WHAT THE REACTION OF SOME FOLK ON HERE WOULD BE IF YOU HAD SAID, "ALL BLACK MANAGERS ARE JUST RUBBISH AT MANAGING".

3. YOU SAID FOR EVERY PEP YOU GET A NEIL WARNOCK, APOLOGIES IF I HAVE TAKEN THIS THE WRONG WAY BUT I THINK YOU ARE SAYING THAT PEP IS A GREAT MANAGER AND THAT WARNOCK IS DUMP ?

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT MAN CITY WOULD ALREADY NEED SNOOKERS THIS SEASON IF SIR NEIL WAS THEIR MANAGER ?

YOU ARE RIGHT, CHAIRMEN ARE BIASED AGAINST ENGLISH MANAGERS AS ONE OF THE FINEST EVER ENGLISH MANAGERS HAS NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE CHANCE TO DEMONSTRATE HIS TALENTS AT THE VERY TOP OF THE ENGLISH GAME.
Click to expand...
 
Continued:


As somebody has already alluded to above, different skill sets are required.....Lost on this one...are you saying that (a) Black Managers have a different skill set? (b) Black Managers 'don't' ever have the skill set or (c) Black managers cant obtain the skill set......and whats that based on...For every John Barnes, Paul Ince.....I will give you a Lee Clarke, Neil MacDonald & Colin Hendry


I WASN'T SAYING A,B, OR C. I JUST MEANT THAT THE SKILLS REQUIRED TO BE A SUCCESSFUL FOOTBALL PLAYER WERE DIFFERENT FROM THE SKILLS REQUIRED TO BE A SUCCESSFUL MANAGER AND THAT IF THAT WAS THE CASE IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE SHOULD BE THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF BLACK MANAGERS AS THERE IS BLACK FOOTBALL PLAYERS.

PERSONALLY, I WOULDN'T STICK PAUL INCE OR LEE CLARKE IN WITH THOSE OTHERS BUT THAT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR QUESTION.

I can only speak for myself and personally I couldn't care less what skin colour a potential manager had and I have no evidence to suggest that than any chairmen are discriminating on the grounds of colour.....So you're saying you don't believe your 1st question???

I AM SAYING THAT PERSONALLY I HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT ANY CHAIRMEN ARE DISCRIMINATING ON GROUNDS OF COLOUR. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A CHAIRMAN WHO HAS ACTUALLY DONE SO, IT JUST MEANS I DON'T KNOW OF ANY SPECIFIC CHAIRMAN WHO DISCRIMINATES AGAINST A POTENTIAL MANAGER BECAUSE OF THE COLOUR OF HIS SKIN. THAT THERE IS A LOWER PERCENTAGE OF BLACK FOOTBALL MANAGERS THAN BLACK FOOTBALLER PLAYERS DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHAIRMEN ARE DISCRIMINATING AGAINST POTENTIAL BLACK PLAYERS.

As you suggest, I think if anybody is good enough they will make it....Yes, that's the ONLY thing being a manger should be about

WE ARE IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT HERE. I AM ASSUMING YOU MEANT MANAGER NOT MANGER.

You referred to Sol Campbell and recently there was a fuss about how Lampard and Gerrard were afforded opportunities that he wasn't but were they given their current positions because of their skin colour ?.....NO and I doubt that has never been considered, raised or even thought of by anyone about Lampard or Gerrard....but it has about Campbell..

I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY HERE ?

I WOULD SUGGEST SOL CAMPBELL'S STANDING AT THE FOOTBALL CLUBS HE REPRESENTED DOES NOT MATCH THAT OF GERRARD AND LAMPARD.

IF ANYBODY WANTS TO PUT THAT DOW TO RACISM THEN I WILL LEAVE THEM TO IT.


Lampard has obviously been given a great opportunity at Chelsea but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of his previous achievements at Chelsea - record goalscorer and legend - and because of his relative success at Derby and not because of his skin colour ?....and that's why Spurs gave Ozzie Ardiles a chance at management, Middlesborough gave Woodgate a chance at management....it has nothing to do with skin colour....football teams give ex-players a chance at management.....as you can obviously see from the 2 examples you give below...for every Gerrard.....there is a Barnes.....

I THINK WE AGREE HERE.


Gerrard has also been afforded a great opportunity at Rangers but I think it's fair to say that he was afforded that opportunity because of time spent in the Liverpool coaching set up and after making a magnificent contribution to that club as a player and not because of his skin colour ?
Celtic have only once in their history given their managers job to somebody with no previous managerial experience - and will probably never do so again ! - and that was to John Barnes, he wasn't afforded the opportunity because of his skin colour and if he had been successful at Celtic I am sure he would have been considered for other jobs - perhaps Liverpool - if he had been successful....agree

YES, I'D AGREE THAT WE AGREE.


No doubt there will be a number of initiatives and/or incentives to try and increase the percentage of black managers and these initiatives/incentives and hopefully such schemes will help ensure that no potentially great black managers are lost to the game.....Hopefully and that's why Jason Lee brought this up as it may uncover new managers who wouldn't have tried in the current set up.

AGAIN WE AGREE BUT I WOULD STOP SHORT OF APOLOGISING TO JASON LEE FOR LAUGHING AT THE RIDICULOUS HAIRCUT HE HAD 25 YEARS AGO.

IT WAS A CNUT OF A HAIRCUT AND ALTHOUGH I SEE THAT HE NOW HAS A SHORT BACK AND SIDES, I WOULD STILL TAKE THE P1SS OUT OF HIM FOR HAVING SUCH A HAIRCUT 25 YEARS AGO RATHER THAN APOLOGISE TO HIM.


Of course, such schemes will not be available to potential white managers who will be automatically disadvantaged and we are back to the potential issues caused by positive discrimination such as the loss of potentially great white managers......WHY did you have to have a little dig and bring it back to 'white' managers......You said "I think if anybody is good enough they will make it" but you again just dismiss your own comments.....Black, White, Brown, Asian, Male, Female.....if they are good they will make it......Just look at Evett......excellent in the non-league...now moving up.....it's NOT about the colour of his skin...he was given an opportunity.....so why do a Trump and intimate 'white' managers are going to lose out.....as with any job...start off, do well, get promoted, try new things...move up the corporate ladder.....basic......but it's how good you are.....NOT skin colour....and NO 'white' people will miss out as you say.....it's not going to be black v white.

I WAS NOT HAVING A "LITTLE DIG" AT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING. I WAS JUST HIGHLIGHTING THAT NOT EVERYTHING ABOUT SUCH SCHEMES IS POSITIVE. WE BOTH APPEAR TO AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE GOOD TO INTRODUCE SCHEMES WHICH WOULD HELP PREVENT POTENTIALLY GREAT BLACK MANAGERS BEING LOST TO THE GAME, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT WE ALSO AGREE THAT WE WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE POTENTIALLY GREAT WHITE MANAGERS LOST TO THE GAME. IF WE INTRODUCED A RULE THAT SAID 25% OF THOSE INTERVIEWED HAD TO BE BLACK AND WE RECEIVED FIVE APPLICATIONS FOR A JOB, FOUR FROM WHITE MANAGERS ALL SCORING 98% PRE-INTERVIEW AND ONE BLACK MANAGER SCORING 38% PRE-INTERVIEW, ONE OF THE HIGH SCORING WHITE MANAGERS WOULD BE DENIED AN INTERVIEW AND COULD BE POTENTIALLY BE LOST TO THE GAME. HYPOTHETICAL AND LONG WINDED AND I MAYBE EXAGGERATING TO MAKE MY POINT BUT SURELY YOU AGREE WITH ME IN THAT THERE ARE ISSUES AROUND SCHEMES OF BOTH A POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE NATURE ?

Maybe I should have just said give the best man the job every time......Give everyone the opportunity...and the best person for that job will then be employed......no matter what their skin colour is.....Akinfenwa at Wycome was able to really motivate players in the last 2 play off games and I think players like him will add to any club management in the leagues going forward....lets hope he will be given an opportunity from ...Fans, Players and Chairman

ABSOLUTELY.


The comment was made by Jason Lee who is the PFA's equalities executive (whatever that is?)
The PFA said they are using it as a talk point to raise the question of black players being able to move into management.
In saying it, he's got people talking about it and discussing it.....and debating if there is something to change
The more we talk about it the more we can change our views to give opportunities to those who maybe haven't had them.
I think the 'idea' of it becoming a law was Lee's way of saying it was the only way to make sure it happened.....It would never be a law...but it gets the hard of thinking riled up and blowing a gasket.

ABSOLUTELY.



CAN I PLEASE ADD:

THE FOOTBALL AUTHORITIES HAVE MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS ON RACISM OVER THE YEARS.

IT IS VIRTUALLY NON EXISTENT AT OUR CLUB, I HAVE SEEN ONE RACIST INCIDENT IN THE LAST SAY 10 YEARS AND THE CHAP RESPONSIBLE WAS SHOUTED DOWN AND RIGHTLY SO.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THEY CAN ALWAYS DO MORE BUT IF YOU WERE LISTEN TO SOME OF THE RIDICULOUS NEGATIVITY OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS, IT'S AS IF YOU ARE EXPECTED TO BELIEVE THAT THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE AND WORSE.

THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER AND BETTER AND THAT CAN ONLY BE A GOOD THING.
 
2020.....enjoyed reading the reply and I don't think were that far apart....I could raise some aspects of the reply...but poor old AVFTT'ers may just give up as this could go on for some time and gives way to semantics......

I think we agree.....it's the best man (oh god....better say) Person for the job.

And I wasn't going to say anything....but......anyone who thought that pineapple on top of Lees' head was a good idea when playing football.....is not all there......and maybe never will be.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Nothing to do with race and I am not suggesting that Critchley won't be a better manager than Ince - or that he will be.

Ince arrived at a pre-season game (2013/14 ???) with Kendal with 7 players and despite having his hands tied behind his back, he somehow managed to grind out some great results at the start of the season.

Yes there is no doubt that we rode our luck at times and it wasn't very entertaining but although he had very little to work with, he set what little he had up very well and made us hard to beat.

I don't think anybody really thought we could keep it up but we somehow managed to stay up and that was mainly because of our early season achievements.
Click to expand...
What difference does it make what bloody colour he is? This is not America racism doesn’t really exist here unless you believe the BBC and other left wing media sources.

Anyone that is any good will succeed believe me. I never thought Lewis Hamilton was black until he started acting like a fool.

When we had Ince I never heard anyone say oh look there goes out black Manager. He was just Incy that did well for a while then it went wrong same as most Managers.
 
Seasider1887 said:
What difference does it make what bloody colour he is? This is not America racism doesn’t really exist here unless you believe the BBC and other left wing media sources.

Anyone that is any good will succeed believe me. I never thought Lewis Hamilton was black until he started acting like a fool.

When we had Ince I never heard anyone say oh look there goes out black Manager. He was just Incy that did well for a while then it went wrong same as most Managers.
Click to expand...

1887

Apologies if I have misunderstood but you appear to be questioning me at first and then agreeing with me.

I agree with what you say so just surprised that you were replying to my post with "What difference does it make what colour he is".

No big deal and sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.
 
Seasider1887 said:
What difference does it make what bloody colour he is? This is not America racism doesn’t really exist here unless you believe the BBC and other left wing media sources.

Anyone that is any good will succeed believe me. I never thought Lewis Hamilton was black until he started acting like a fool.

When we had Ince I never heard anyone say oh look there goes out black Manager. He was just Incy that did well for a while then it went wrong same as most Managers.
Click to expand...
As soon as you said racism doesn't exist in this country you lost the argument. Ridiculous comment.
 
Wizaard said:
As soon as you said racism doesn't exist in this country you lost the argument. Ridiculous comment.
Click to expand...
Visit the States Pal then you will know or check out the OG Simpson Trial on Netflix. We are one of the most tolerant Countries in the World. Just you self righteous twats want to bang on about it. It’s a Marxist organisation making trouble but you are blind .
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
1887

Apologies if I have misunderstood but you appear to be questioning me at first and then agreeing with me.

I agree with what you say so just surprised that you were replying to my post with "What difference does it make what colour he is".

No big deal and sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.
Click to expand...
Sorry miss read it. Yes spot on it’s all about the person. Good and bad everywhere but the media won’t let that get in the way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top