Stanley Johnson

[Shandypants]

I’m not sure, but they had plenty of warnin and could have just left.

It's their home, would you leave your house? That's got nowt to do with flags and borders.

 

[Wizaard]

Depends what you mean by a long time.

NI and Eire were created just over 100 years ago. Well my dad was born just over 100 years ago, so not that long ago.

After the Scottish took over England when James 1 acceded to the English throne in 1603 it took 100 years for Scotland and England to become part of a larger country. That’s only 300 years ago which is a blink of an eye in history. Fcuk me your and my combined lives alone must come to close to 140 years.

Look at countries in Europe like, say, Romania, Finland and Poland and their borders were created even more recently. If you look at Africa then those borders were probably created during our lifetimes.

Makes you think about this idea of nationhood doesn’t it?

Valeri has been Russian and now Latvian in the last 30 years.

 

[Matesrates]

It's their home, would you leave your house? That's got nowt to do with flags and borders.

I’m sure some of them stayed and fought because it’s their country l

 

[Newholland]

It's their home, would you leave your house? That's got nowt to do with flags and borders.

Not sure those Ukraine nationals who left their houses and family in other countries to go home and fight will agree..

 

[20togo]

Is it loyalty to a country or fighting to save your own skin? Wars happened before countries and borders existed.

But there is two sets of people fighting, not just one. The aggressors and the defenders. We can go back and forth as much as you like but the point is that as long as we've lived on the planet that has always been the case. And whether you like it or not crossing over into land where other people live is crossing that border. Border in your view may be a modern term but the point is it was still some-one elses land or place of residence. So as i said much earlier, you are trying to believe in some sort of nirvana where there are no borders and the whole planet can live in peace. Ain't gonna happen. rt

 

[Johnno]

Borders have existed since man first started living together in communities, thousands of years ago. Maybe not quite as we see borders nowadays, and certainly not memorialised in writing nor necessarily with the agreement of their neighbours, but borders all the same.

Stone Age cultures felt tied to specific locales, because that’s where their ancestors were buried, and to leave those areas would be to lose contact with them. That’s the birth of ‘patriotism’ to a particular piece of land.

Of course, migration of cultures has happened, but that was usually out of necessity (fleeing invasions, searching for needed resources, etc.), greed or just organic sharing of knowledge/beliefs. I’d be interested to hear of any examples of cultures who have totally upped sticks and moved on a whim?

The city states of Greece, along with their borders, were mapped out before 500BC, how relative is modern?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

When this island (or most of it) was part of the Roman Empire I imagine most people who lived here would have owed their allegiance to Rome.

When Vikings took a big chunk then I expect those people, for a generation or so, would have owed their allegiance to somewhere in Norway or thereabouts. There’s a river about 400 yards from me that marked the border with Danelaw.

When the Normans took over then the allegiance of many would be to France. (A friend wondered why so many English Kings were buried in France - he worked out it was because they were French).

Tudors were Welsh which I suppose was an improvement.

The Stuarts were Scottish…hmm.

And they were replaced by William of Orange (Dutch) and a bunch of Germans who were anglicised in a bit of a rush with WW1.

Given all that I can’t understand why anyone would think that national identity might be a bit confusing.

Mex, are you a student of Sellar & Yeatman?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Of course, migration of cultures has happened, but that was usually out of necessity (fleeing invasions, searching for needed resources, etc.), greed or just organic sharing of knowledge/beliefs. I’d be interested to hear of any examples of cultures who have totally upped sticks and moved on a whim?

The early European colonisation of North America?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Mex, are you a student of Sellar & Yeatman?

I had to Google to see who they were so I think you can take that as a no.

 

[Johnno]

The early European colonisation of North America?

There were two main reasons that Europeans colonised America -

1) religious groups fleeing persecution
2) people believing they would have a better future there, an unruled land on which to claim their own plot of land (falls into my greed category).

Plus, my question about a culture upping sticks was intended to mean an entire culture upping sticks - the European settlers left their own culture intact back in Europe.

It was a genuine query, too, btw. I wasn’t trying to sound like a smart arse!

 

[1966_and_all_that]

There were two main reasons that Europeans colonised America -

1) religious groups fleeing persecution
2) people believing they would have a better future there, an unruled land on which to claim their own plot of land (falls into my greed category).

Plus, my question about a culture upping sticks was intended to mean an entire culture upping sticks - the European settlers left their own culture intact back in Europe.

It was a genuine query, too, btw. I wasn’t trying to sound like a smart arse!

No smart-arsery detected. My reply was a suggested answer to your cultures uprooting on a whim line. A reply to which you then provided a considered response.