The Assisted Dying Bill

[bfcpete]

I know this is contentious but I have always believed individuals should be given the choice, subject to certain checks and safeguards being put in place.
The Isle of Man Parliament and the States of Jersey have already approved AD and the Welsh Parliament is in the final stages of doing so, including a role for the Welsh NHS. The Commons has already approved the first stages. The majority of the public also appear in favour of it.
So, why is the Lords being allowed to frustrate and potential 'time out' the Bill by putting in over 1000 amendments, some of which are just filibustering? Do the Government and MPs really not have the guts or will to pass it

 

[UTMP1989]

In my heart I say we should be given the choice given there are safeguards in place.
Also just to contradict your statement I would say that individuals who are truly senile and at the stage of been unable to communicate or understand who they are needs someone else to make the life decision for them. I would feel it would be easier to put them out their misery and let them die with dignity (I know I would prefer it if it was me)
Of course it’s such a sensitive topic so I understand if not everyone agrees with me.

 

[Wizaard]

I know this is contentious but I have always believed individuals should be given the choice, subject to certain checks and safeguards being put in place.
The Isle of Man Parliament and the States of Jersey have already approved AD and the Welsh Parliament is in the final stages of doing so, including a role for the Welsh NHS. The Commons has already approved the first stages. The majority of the public also appear in favour of it.
So, why is the Lords being allowed to frustrate and potential 'time out' the Bill by putting in over 1000 amendments, some of which are just filibustering? Do the Government and MPs really not have the guts or will to pass it

Because a lot of them are scared they'll be put down.

 

[Wizaard]

In my heart I say we should be given the choice given there are safeguards in place.
Also just to contradict your statement I would say that individuals who are truly senile and at the stage of been unable to communicate or understand who they are needs someone else to make the life decision for them. I would feel it would be easier to put them out their misery and let them die with dignity (I know I would prefer it if it was me)
Of course it’s such a sensitive topic so I understand if not everyone agrees with me.

It's ironic that those who aren't able to make that decision are not allowed to die with some remaining dignity. Instead some have feeding stopped and literally starve to death with a DNR in place.

It's a minefield, but surely we as a nation can figure it out.

 

[UTMP1989]

It's ironic that those who aren't able to make that decision are not allowed to die with some remaining dignity. Instead some have feeding stopped and literally starve to death with a DNR in place.

It's a minefield, but surely we as a nation can figure it out.

Yes it’s those who are long gone with dementia and don’t have any quality of life, but still cruelly live on for a few years & it’s just as difficult for there partners/children witnessing them in this condition.
If we allowed assisted dying it would spare a lot of heartache.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Long overdue in this country.

Just can’t see the purpose of someone in their final days having to be forced to travel to countries like Switzerland to end one’s life where’s the dignity?

 

[Poolabroad]

Yes it’s those who are long gone with dementia and don’t have any quality of life, but still cruelly live on for a few years & it’s just as difficult for there partners/children witnessing them in this condition.
If we allowed assisted dying it would spare a lot of heartache.

Wholeheartedly agree. My Father had Alzheimers' for a long time, unable to see, eat, walk, basically in a vegetative state (a term I'm loathe to use). He was a good man and I'm 100% positive he would not have wanted to live like that or have his family witness it. Assisted dying would have been merciful.

Assisted dying is legal in Canada. I would be more than prepared to pre-sign to it if I thought I would end up in the same position. I dont believe there is any such provision which is unfortunate as I do not think it can be carried out if the affected person is not of sound mind. (I can understand why in certain cases).

A real tough act to legislate.

 

[UTMP1989]

Wholeheartedly agree. My Father had Alzheimers' for a long time, unable to see, eat, walk, basically in a vegetative state (a term I'm loathe to use). He was a good man and I'm 100% positive he would not have wanted to live like that or have his family witness it. Assisted dying would have been merciful.

Assisted dying is legal in Canada. I would be more than prepared to pre-sign to it if I thought I would end up in the same position. I dont believe there is any such provision which is unfortunate as I do not think it can be carried out if the affected person is not of sound mind. (I can understand why in certain cases).

A real tough act to legislate.

Sorry to hear that, and I imagine it was just as heartbreaking for you to witness him deteriorating. The only consolation is that at least your father only had good family memories pre-dementia.
Alzheimer’s along with cancer are the real bastards of today which just seems to be getting worse & worse .

 

[BWseasider]

I always used to be very in favour of assisted dying. The recent debates have actually swung me a bit more to being on the fence, though I'd probably still say I'm in favour with strong safeguards. I do fundamentally believe people should be able to end their lives with dignity and have a choice available to them, however I am quite concerned that sadly some people are unscrupulous and may pressure their loved ones into certain decisions that are not actually in their best interests. Not only that but how the NHS will handle it with the inherent cost pressures being put on it. I do have some concerns where it leads over time and the dynamics it introduces to decision making.

 

[Poolabroad]

Cheers UTMP

 

[585 = never give up]

The unelected Lords frustrating the legislation to ensure it is not passed, which has been passed by the elected Parliament & supported by the majority of our country is just wrong.
If the Lords succeed, they should seriously be looked at with a view disbanding the house.

 

[Wizzerboy]

You visit the vets........

Oh I'm so sorry Mrs Thompson your beloved cat who you've had for over ten years has lost most of its bodily functions, it's best if we put her to "sleep"

You visit the nursing home.......

Oh I'm so sorry Mrs Thompson your beloved husband who you've been married to for over 40 years is nothing more than a dribbling wreak that does absolutely nothing all day and we're having to force feed him just so he survives. This will probably last another 18 months to 3 years and you'll have the pain of watching them deteriorate every time you visit.

What exactly is humane about scenario 2?

 

[Hertsseasider]

I am currently in a Care Home near Brussels with BrugeSeasiders mum (95). There are around 12 people in the room and some music is on the TV.
To a person, they are just staring at the TV, sitting, mostly in nappies as they have no self control, waiting to be fed and then taken to bed.
There is no quality of life. There is no dignity.
These people are far too gone to make such a decision on Assisted Death.
Should they have had this option earlier? Should families be able to make the decision now ?
I really don't know. AD is available in Belgium but there are numerous restrictions in place.
I don't know the right answer but just feel desperately sad.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

You visit the vets........

Oh I'm so sorry Mrs Thompson your beloved cat who you've had for over ten years has lost most of its bodily functions, it's best if we put her to "sleep"

You visit the nursing home.......

Oh I'm so sorry Mrs Thompson your beloved husband who you've been married to for over 40 years is nothing more than a dribbling wreak that does absolutely nothing all day and we're having to force feed him just so he survives. This will probably last another 18 months to 3 years and you'll have the pain of watching them deteriorate every time you visit.

What exactly is humane about scenario 2?

No-one is saying that Wizzer. The issues are highly complex and I, for one, wouldn't want to put an obligation on anyone about me, whichever way the penny drops.

 

[straightatthewall]

I am currently in a Care Home near Brussels with BrugeSeasiders mum (95). There are around 12 people in the room and some music is on the TV.
To a person, they are just staring at the TV, sitting, mostly in nappies as they have no self control, waiting to be fed and then taken to bed.
There is no quality of life. There is no dignity.
These people are far too gone to make such a decision on Assisted Death.
Should they have had this option earlier? Should families be able to make the decision now ?
I really don't know. AD is available in Belgium but there are numerous restrictions in place.
I don't know the right answer but just feel desperately sad.

Hi Mark.

We have the same situation with Mrs SATW's mum. It's an awful situation where (it seems) that nobody gets anything positive from other than the owners of the care home who clearly do very well out of the situation. And i say that last part knowing full well that the home provides high standards of care to the residents and the staff - most of whom are immigrants and paid peanuts - do a wonderful job in hugely difficult circumstances.

I don't know what the right answer is to this whole debate, but I can tell you that the current answer isn't 'right' either.

Thoughts are with anyone going through the loss of a loved one, whatever the circumstances. There's no 'good' way. It's just varieties of shit.

 

[GEER]

This is state sanctioned killing, I get the emotional side of things, recently gone through the watching a person die under s DNR. The proposed law is well intentioned but the next Shipman will use the admin process to further their own ends. To stop this the Coroner must be able to investigate any death it deems suspicious but this bill has clauses which specifically stop this in assisted dying deaths.

 

[Hertsseasider]

Hi Mark.

We have the same situation with Mrs SATW's mum. It's an awful situation where (it seems) that nobody gets anything positive from other than the owners of the care home who clearly do very well out of the situation. And i say that last part knowing full well that the home provides high standards of care to the residents and the staff - most of whom are immigrants and paid peanuts - do a wonderful job in hugely difficult circumstances.

I don't know what the right answer is to this whole debate, but I can tell you that the current answer isn't 'right' either.

Thoughts are with anyone going through the loss of a loved one, whatever the circumstances. There's no 'good' way. It's just varieties of shit.

Cheers fella. Thoughts with you and Mrs SATW, and all others.
May catch you at Wimbledon

 

[Sooty59]

Everything seems so complicated these days and just gets swamped with red tape & subsequently ignored. AD used responsibly & ethically is a yes from me. But it could it also be used to save money, a convenient solution or even against someone’s wishes. I think it will eventually come in but I fear to comply with all the safeguards will take so long those in need of it will have already died a painful or protracted death anyway. Whatever way you look at it someone always comes up with a strong argument against what you are proposing.

 

[Wizzerboy]

No-one is saying that Wizzer. The issues are highly complex and I, for one, wouldn't want to put an obligation on anyone about me, whichever way the penny drops.

I wasn't present for my father's passing through family complications but if it was anything like the way my mother died I would have happily flicked the switch, signed the form or whatever else you needed to do to put him out of his misery.

My mother went from the size of Hattie Jacques to gollum in no more than 6 months!! My sisters selfishness obviously couldn't seen the pain and anguish in her mothers eyes wanting to play hokey cokey with her bringing her back home from the hospice every 3 to 4 weeks because "she looks to be improving" only to plead for them to take her back.
If I'd been the hospice I'd have told my sister to fcuk off and look after her mother herself but they have compassion and when a bed became available she went back.
When she eventually passed my sister was wollowing in her self pity whereas I went to my mates engagement party.
When people knew my mother had died they were coming over to me asking why I was at a party, I said it's a celebration for me as my mother wasn't in any pain anymore and should have been like that months ago.

I will never apologise for wanting my mother to die, she was never going to get better and that last 6 months of her life are burned into my memory forever, I'd never wish it on anyone.

As a footnote, I didn't receive a bean from the passing of either parent

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I wasn't present for my father's passing through family complications but if it was anything like the way my mother died I would have happily flicked the switch, signed the form or whatever else you needed to do to put him out of his misery.

My mother went from the size of Hattie Jacques to gollum in no more than 6 months!! My sisters selfishness obviously couldn't seen the pain and anguish in her mothers eyes wanting to play hokey cokey with her bringing her back home from the hospice every 3 to 4 weeks because "she looks to be improving" only to plead for them to take her back.
If I'd been the hospice I'd have told my sister to fcuk off and look after her mother herself but they have compassion and when a bed became available she went back.
When she eventually passed my sister was wollowing in her self pity whereas I went to my mates engagement party.
When people knew my mother had died they were coming over to me asking why I was at a party, I said it's a celebration for me as my mother wasn't in any pain anymore and should have been like that months ago.

I will never apologise for wanting my mother to die, she was never going to get better and that last 6 months of her life are burned into my memory forever, I'd never wish it on anyone.

Personal experience sharpens the attitude certainly and I wouldn't want to contest the matter with you on that basis. Not that I'd want to contest it anyway.

 

[Wizaard]

The unelected Lords frustrating the legislation to ensure it is not passed, which has been passed by the elected Parliament & supported by the majority of our country is just wrong.
If the Lords succeed, they should seriously be looked at with a view disbanding the house.

The Commons can bypass the Lords if they keep refusing.

 

[straightatthewall]

I wasn't present for my father's passing through family complications but if it was anything like the way my mother died I would have happily flicked the switch, signed the form or whatever else you needed to do to put him out of his misery.

My mother went from the size of Hattie Jacques to gollum in no more than 6 months!! My sisters selfishness obviously couldn't seen the pain and anguish in her mothers eyes wanting to play hokey cokey with her bringing her back home from the hospice every 3 to 4 weeks because "she looks to be improving" only to plead for them to take her back.
If I'd been the hospice I'd have told my sister to fcuk off and look after her mother herself but they have compassion and when a bed became available she went back.
When she eventually passed my sister was wollowing in her self pity whereas I went to my mates engagement party.
When people knew my mother had died they were coming over to me asking why I was at a party, I said it's a celebration for me as my mother wasn't in any pain anymore and should have been like that months ago.

I will never apologise for wanting my mother to die, she was never going to get better and that last 6 months of her life are burned into my memory forever, I'd never wish it on anyone.

As a footnote, I didn't receive a bean from the passing of either parent

Wish there was emoji other than 'like' for this post (and others). It's obviously not something to 'like' but I totally understand your story and feelings. My aunt had a stroke that left her alive and functioning to a basic point but her life and the lives of my cousin and my mum (her sister) were miserable for about 3 years as she slowly died in a care home and they visited day after day to be there for her. My aunt was clearly in a state of huge depression as she could listen, but was left unable to speak in anything other than noises that were - being honest - incomprehensible to the listener. As my aunt could also hear what she was unable to say, the frustration and upset in her often came out. She was a proud and lovely woman, who didn't deserve that. Just as my cousin and mum didn't deserve to live with it.

I feel that as distressing as it would have been for my aunt to have died quickly from the stroke, it was the lesser of two evils compared to the pain all suffered in the aftermath.

 

[Poolabroad]

I always used to be very in favour of assisted dying. The recent debates have actually swung me a bit more to being on the fence, though I'd probably still say I'm in favour with strong safeguards. I do fundamentally believe people should be able to end their lives with dignity and have a choice available to them, however I am quite concerned that sadly some people are unscrupulous and may pressure their loved ones into certain decisions that are not actually in their best interests. Not only that but how the NHS will handle it with the inherent cost pressures being put on it. I do have some concerns where it leads over time and the dynamics it introduces to decision making.

As I said, it sure is a tough one. In a perfect world it would

 

[Poolabroad]

I wasn't present for my father's passing through family complications but if it was anything like the way my mother died I would have happily flicked the switch, signed the form or whatever else you needed to do to put him out of his misery.

My mother went from the size of Hattie Jacques to gollum in no more than 6 months!! My sisters selfishness obviously couldn't seen the pain and anguish in her mothers eyes wanting to play hokey cokey with her bringing her back home from the hospice every 3 to 4 weeks because "she looks to be improving" only to plead for them to take her back.
If I'd been the hospice I'd have told my sister to fcuk off and look after her mother herself but they have compassion and when a bed became available she went back.
When she eventually passed my sister was wollowing in her self pity whereas I went to my mates engagement party.
When people knew my mother had died they were coming over to me asking why I was at a party, I said it's a celebration for me as my mother wasn't in any pain anymore and should have been like that months ago.

I will never apologise for wanting my mother to die, she was never going to get better and that last 6 months of her life are burned into my memory forever, I'd never wish it on anyone.

As a footnote, I didn't receive a bean from the passing of either parent

I was relieved when my Dad passed. Mainly for him. Awful illness.

 

[585 = never give up]

I am currently in a Care Home near Brussels with BrugeSeasiders mum (95). There are around 12 people in the room and some music is on the TV.
To a person, they are just staring at the TV, sitting, mostly in nappies as they have no self control, waiting to be fed and then taken to bed.
There is no quality of life. There is no dignity.
These people are far too gone to make such a decision on Assisted Death.
Should they have had this option earlier? Should families be able to make the decision now ?
I really don't know. AD is available in Belgium but there are numerous restrictions in place.
I don't know the right answer but just feel desperately sad.

The Commons can bypass the Lords if they keep refusing.

Those in favour can but hope that common sense (bypassing the Lords) & democracy (the vote of the elected parliament & public opinion polls) prevails. If it doesn't then the system & the country's 'leaders' have failed our country.

 

[Wizaard]

Those in favour can but hope that common sense (bypassing the Lords) & democracy (the vote of the elected parliament & public opinion polls) prevails. If it doesn't then the system & the country's 'leaders' have failed our country.

First time round, the Lords can get it timed out. Apparently 7 Lords have tabled 800 amendments between them.

Second time round, the Parliament Act can be invoked to bypass the Lords. Would be in the next round of Parliament though, so an unnecessary delay.

 

[bfcpete]

Both my parents had painful and horrible deaths. I apologise now for describing these.
In 1990 my father had a stroke not long after he had an operation in hospital. He was immobilised apart from one arm but he was conscious most of the time. Over the next week and a half parts of his body gradually died. We were told after a couple of days that he would not recover. The circulation in his legs closed down and they went black. His kidneys started failing and his lungs repeatedly filled with fluid and had to be drained every half hour. Despite receiving all the morphine they were allowed to prescribe, he was in agony. They look on his face and in his eyes was terrible, both for him and the family, who had to watch him die over the 10 days. His own father had died a very long and progressively awful death following a series of debilitating and disabling stokes. I know that my own father wouldn't have wanted to go the same way, wouldn't have wanted to go through the pain he had to (with no hope), and wouldn't have wanted to put his family through additional pain. He would have been very much in favour of Assisted Dying.

My mother died in 2014. The previous 2 years she had been diagnosed with progressive dementia. This did not mean she couldn't live in her own home, but she needed increasing levels of support and was less aware of her own health issues. She was subsequently admitted to hospital because of a sudden yellow palour in her face. She was diagnosed with liver and bowel cancer, which was extensive, advanced, and terminal. Despite, again, being given the maximum levels of morphine, my mum was in agony. This was particularly bad during the night, when there was fewer staff on duty and was when I stayed with her. More than once she pleaded to be put out of her pain and misery. Having also previously experienced my dad have a painful and drawn out death I know my mum would have preferred a shorter and less painful death with assisted dying.
That is a choice people should have.

 

[bill40]

I hope it dies an undignified death as it deserves to do.

 

[585 = never give up]

First time round, the Lords can get it timed out. Apparently 7 Lords have tabled 800 amendments between them.

Second time round, the Parliament Act can be invoked to bypass the Lords. Would be in the next round of Parliament though, so an unnecessary delay.

Thanks Wiz.
I hope they name the 7 concerned.

 

[Wizaard]

Thanks Wiz.
I hope they name the 7 concerned.

Amendments are tabled in the individuals' names

 

[585 = never give up]

Amendments are tabled in the individuals' names

Thanks Wiz: They're senior Lords. I've met Carlisle he is a very experienced KC in criminal law. Their expertise is available on Google.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff, Baroness Grey-Thompson, Lord Carlile of Berriew, Baroness Coffey, Lord Goodman of Wycombe, Lord Moylan, and Lord Sandhurst, all opponents of the Assisted Dying Bill, have together tabled 587 amendments to it.
My Death, My Decision says this clearly goes past just being scrutiny of the Bill and is an obvious attempt to undemocratically derail the Bill.

 

[Wizaard]

Thanks Wiz: They're senior Lords. I've met Carlisle he is a very experienced KC in criminal law. Their expertise is available on Google.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff, Baroness Grey-Thompson, Lord Carlile of Berriew, Baroness Coffey, Lord Goodman of Wycombe, Lord Moylan, and Lord Sandhurst, all opponents of the Assisted Dying Bill, have together tabled 587 amendments to it.
My Death, My Decision says this clearly goes past just being scrutiny of the Bill and is an obvious attempt to undemocratically derail the Bill.

I think I've heard Tannie Grey-Thompson say that she would have been euthanised as a child under the Bill. Seems a bit over the top.

 

[bfcpete]

I think I've heard Tannie Grey-Thompson say that she would have been euthanised as a child under the Bill. Seems a bit over the top.

I understand that she is wrong. That would not have been possible, as under the proposals you would have to be terminally ill and within 6 months of expected death. She was neither from what I understand from her childhood?

 

[Lytham_fy8]

I think I've heard Tannie Grey-Thompson say that she would have been euthanised as a child under the Bill. Seems a bit over the top.

She's wrong.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I haven’t read every post so apologies if this has already been covered.

I think there’s a huge difference between:

1. A person who is terminally ill but who has mental capacity, who decides they want to end their life early. For me, there’s no debate. They should be allowed to do so before having to go through the end of life stage which can be truly horrible. That’s their choice and they should have it.

2. A person who doesn’t have mental capacity which means someone has to make the decision to end their life early. That’s very, very different and we need to tread carefully. My mother and mother in law both had dementia and both were adamant that they were fine. Imagine yourself in that situation. You think you’re fine. People in white coats are saying you aren’t. And your time has come. Pass the needle nurse.

I don’t know what the bill says about the second scenario. I probably should.

 

[LewishamSeasider]

I haven’t read every post so apologies if this has already been covered.

I think there’s a huge difference between:

1. A person who is terminally ill but who has mental capacity, who decides they want to end their life early. For me, there’s no debate. They should be allowed to do so before having to go through the end of life stage which can be truly horrible. That’s their choice and they should have it.

2. A person who doesn’t have mental capacity which means someone has to make the decision to end their life early. That’s very, very different and we need to tread carefully. My mother and mother in law both had dementia and both were adamant that they were fine. Imagine yourself in that situation. You think you’re fine. People in white coats are saying you aren’t. And your time has come. Pass the needle nurse.

I don’t know what the bill says about the second scenario. I probably should.

This is my problem with the whole thing. It's not easy to draft a Bill that deals with both those broad types well. Plenty of people think it doesn't deal with the second scenario properly, hence their Lordships digging their heels in.

Of course the shameful filibustering that the HoL has indulged in on other less contentious Bills has not done them any favours when it comes to demonstrating their bona fides on this one.

 

[Wizaard]

I haven’t read every post so apologies if this has already been covered.

I think there’s a huge difference between:

1. A person who is terminally ill but who has mental capacity, who decides they want to end their life early. For me, there’s no debate. They should be allowed to do so before having to go through the end of life stage which can be truly horrible. That’s their choice and they should have it.

2. A person who doesn’t have mental capacity which means someone has to make the decision to end their life early. That’s very, very different and we need to tread carefully. My mother and mother in law both had dementia and both were adamant that they were fine. Imagine yourself in that situation. You think you’re fine. People in white coats are saying you aren’t. And your time has come. Pass the needle nurse.

I don’t know what the bill says about the second scenario. I probably should.

The second scenario isn't covered. Mental capacity is key to any request for assistance.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

The second scenario isn't covered. Mental capacity is key to any request for assistance.

Well yes, that’s what I assumed. It’s just that a lot of the scenarios described in this thread wouldn’t be covered by the bill anyway. Once you’ve reached end of life (which I agree can be horrible) it’s probably too late as you’re out of it (either from dementia or the drugs).

A terminally ill person with mental capacity has it within their power to end their life at a time of their choosing, provided they don’t leave it too late. So, apart from moving the death to a formal clinical setting, the Bill/Act doesn’t make a lot of practical difference, apart from the fear of bodging a DIY attempt I suppose.

 

[Wizaard]

Well yes, that’s what I assumed. It’s just that a lot of the scenarios described in this thread wouldn’t be covered by the bill anyway. Once you’ve reached end of life (which I agree can be horrible) it’s probably too late as you’re out of it (either from dementia or the drugs).

A terminally ill person with mental capacity has it within their power to end their life at a time of their choosing, provided they don’t leave it too late. So, apart from moving the death to a formal clinical setting, the Bill/Act doesn’t make a lot of practical difference, apart from the fear of bodging a DIY attempt I suppose.

Is it a case of making your wishes known before you reach such a sad stage?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Is it a case of making your wishes known before you reach such a sad stage?

I doubt it.

What about someone pre-dementia who is adamant they don’t want to live with it. Then they lose mental capacity but, come the moment, they’ve changed their minds. But they can’t change their minds as they don’t have mental capacity. “No dear. You said here. It’s quite clear. Off we go. It won’t hurt, I promise”.

What you going to do? Drag them kicking and screaming away from the other residents to avoid distress, and then hold them down while you plunge in the needle?

Don’t misunderstand me. I agree 100% that people with mental capacity should be able to choose the easier option to end their life. And they have that ability (if not the right) right now.

People without mental capacity are in a different category completely.

 

[Wizaard]

I doubt it.

What about someone pre-dementia who is adamant they don’t want to live with it. Then they lose mental capacity but, come the moment, they’ve changed their minds. But they can’t change their minds as they don’t have mental capacity. “No dear. You said here. It’s quite clear. Off we go. It won’t hurt, I promise”.

What you going to do? Drag them kicking and screaming away from the other residents to avoid distress, and then hold them down while you plunge in the needle?

Don’t misunderstand me. I agree 100% that people with mental capacity should be able to choose the easier option to end their life. And they have that ability (if not the right) right now.

People without mental capacity are in a different category completely.

All good points

 

[Hertsseasider]

I doubt it.

What about someone pre-dementia who is adamant they don’t want to live with it. Then they lose mental capacity but, come the moment, they’ve changed their minds. But they can’t change their minds as they don’t have mental capacity. “No dear. You said here. It’s quite clear. Off we go. It won’t hurt, I promise”.

What you going to do? Drag them kicking and screaming away from the other residents to avoid distress, and then hold them down while you plunge in the needle?

Don’t misunderstand me. I agree 100% that people with mental capacity should be able to choose the easier option to end their life. And they have that ability (if not the right) right now.

People without mental capacity are in a different category completely.

This is an excellent point.
I'm here with my MiL, thinking there is no way I want to be like this, where do I sign up.
Fast forward and Spurs are about to clinch promotion from league 1.
Hold on, I've changed my mind

 

[Lost Seasider]

It's the NHS FFS, whatever the rights and wrongs, they'll just keep patients on waiting lists until they give up and decide to kill themselves.

Waiting lists too high, erm... okay, we'll just kill off a few thousand of them.

 

[Wizzerboy]

I doubt it.

What about someone pre-dementia who is adamant they don’t want to live with it. Then they lose mental capacity but, come the moment, they’ve changed their minds. But they can’t change their minds as they don’t have mental capacity. “No dear. You said here. It’s quite clear. Off we go. It won’t hurt, I promise”.

What you going to do? Drag them kicking and screaming away from the other residents to avoid distress, and then hold them down while you plunge in the needle?

Don’t misunderstand me. I agree 100% that people with mental capacity should be able to choose the easier option to end their life. And they have that ability (if not the right) right now.

People without mental capacity are in a different category completely.

Drag them kicking and screaming by the time it'd come to the procedure they wouldn't have kicked and screamed for years.

You try and make it sound like some sort of hammer horror movie, plunge the needle in!!

You say you haven't read every post, is that because you only think your pov counts.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Drag them kicking and screaming by the time it'd come to the procedure they wouldn't have kicked and screamed for years.

You try and make it sound like some sort of hammer horror movie, plunge the needle in!!

You say you haven't read every post, is that because you only think your pov counts.

I think you’ve missed the point that the Bill, even if it was passed unamended, wouldn’t apply to many of the horrible scenarios described in this thread (people at end of life, bed bound and out of it), for the simple reason that the patients involved couldn’t give consent.

I was specifically addressing the point made by Wizz about people giving consent in advance. How would you address the point about patients with dementia who’ve given consent in advance, changing their minds? If you’d read all the posts you’d have seen that, from my own personal experience, I know that people with dementia are often adamant that there’s nothing wrong with them. Spend any time on a dementia ward and you’ll soon notice that 90% of them want to go home.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

This is an excellent point.
I'm here with my MiL, thinking there is no way I want to be like this, where do I sign up.
Fast forward and Spurs are about to clinch promotion from league 1.
Hold on, I've changed my mind

Sorry to hear that Herts. Had the same recently with my MiL. She passed away on Xmas Day.

 

[Wizzerboy]

I think you’ve missed the point that the Bill, even if it was passed unamended, wouldn’t apply to many of the horrible scenarios described in this thread (people at end of life, bed bound and out of it), for the simple reason that the patients involved couldn’t give consent.

I was specifically addressing the point made by Wizz about people giving consent in advance. How would you address the point about patients with dementia who’ve given consent in advance, changing their minds? If you’d read all the posts you’d have seen that, from my own personal experience, I know that people with dementia are often adamant that there’s nothing wrong with them. Spend any time on a dementia ward and you’ll soon notice that 90% of them want to go home.

I don't have to sit on a dementia ward to see what you've described, my wife's father has the illness and if you asked him where his home is he couldn't tell you
You obviously think that someone who really doesn't know what day of the week it is. Just sits staring at a television screen without actually knowing what's on and their only existence is sleep, eat, sit, bed is a quality of life !!

 

[Curryman]

I worked in a care home for 4 years and If you have ever worked or visited a Care Home/Hospice you will realise and despise the suffering of some before they pass away.

In those 4 years I saw people treated kindly in their failing years. I remember one old lady who had severe cancer, and was on an extremely high dose of drugs to keep her from suffering or indeed to sleep peacefully. The Doctor had said he could do nothing else for her but wished he could.

When I worked as a Health & Safety Consultant, I visited many Hospices and Care Homes throughout the country, it was the children's hospices that were the real heart breaker, one of which I have donated to now for over 20 years. To see the suffering of some of the unfortunates was a tearjerker and to see and talk to some of the unfortunate relatives was a lesson in itself.

Some of the comments on here are, to say the least gross. I quote: Drag them kicking and screaming away from the other residents to avoid distress, and then hold them down while you plunge in the needle? It just would not happen like that.

There was a case after the Liverpool FC disaster in Sheffield where a young man, who was in a vegetitive state for around four year was kept alive on the behest of his parents, before they finally threw in the towel and allowed him a decent death. Is that not the same argument as the current one, but reversed?

I, personally, would not want to carry on living, like my mother, unaware of who she was, where she was, who I was, who my sister was and basically totally confused about everything. It was a blessed relief when she finally passed away.

I'm all for assisted dying, so long as adequate controls are in place to prevent any mistakes.

 

[Wizzerboy]

I worked in a care home for 4 years and If you have ever worked or visited a Care Home/Hospice you will realise and despise the suffering of some before they pass away.

In those 4 years I saw people treated kindly in their failing years. I remember one old lady who had severe cancer, and was on an extremely high dose of drugs to keep her from suffering or indeed to sleep peacefully. The Doctor had said he could do nothing else for her but wished he could.

When I worked as a Health & Safety Consultant, I visited many Hospices and Care Homes throughout the country, it was the children's hospices that were the real heart breaker, one of which I have donated to now for over 20 years. To see the suffering of some of the unfortunates was a tearjerker and to see and talk to some of the unfortunate relatives was a lesson in itself.

Some of the comments on here are, to say the least gross. I quote: Drag them kicking and screaming away from the other residents to avoid distress, and then hold them down while you plunge in the needle? It just would not happen like that.

There was a case after the Liverpool FC disaster in Sheffield where a young man, who was in a vegetitive state for around four year was kept alive on the behest of his parents, before they finally threw in the towel and allowed him a decent death. Is that not the same argument as the current one, but reversed?

I, personally, would not want to carry on living, like my mother, unaware of who she was, where she was, who I was, who my sister was and basically totally confused about everything. It was a blessed relief when she finally passed away.

I'm all for assisted dying, so long as adequate controls are in place to prevent any mistakes.

Great post Wilf

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I don't have to sit on a dementia ward to see what you've described, my wife's father has the illness and if you asked him where his home is he couldn't tell you
You obviously think that someone who really doesn't know what day of the week it is. Just sits staring at a television screen without actually knowing what's on and their only existence is sleep, eat, sit, bed is a quality of life !!

Yes, I’ve seen it plenty of times and it’s not a life I’d want.

Going back to the Assisted Dying Bill, let me try to clarify what I’m talking about. It’s essentially a distinction between voluntary euthanasia and non voluntary euthanasia.

The first is where a competent person with mental capacity and a terminal disease wants to end their life early. My understanding is that’s what the bill is about.

The second is where the patient is not competent and someone else decides it’s in their best interests to end their life. That’s not in the bill but it’s clearly the scenario that you and others on here have in mind.

I have no problem with voluntary euthanasia (but have made the point that we all have that ability anyway, even if we don’t currently have the right). The discussion I had with Wizz was about someone giving that consent in advance and then changing their mind.

I’m undecided about non voluntary euthanasia, essentially someone else deciding it’s time to end a life, for obvious reasons. None of that means I don’t accept that end of life can be horrible (and not only end of life, but the few years getting there). I also accept the point someone made about doctors deciding to withdraw fluids and nutrition to achieve the same end, and agree it does seem crazy to make the patient’s suffering even worse. The medical profession rationalise it by arguing that they aren’t killing the patient, they are just withdrawing treatment, but that seems like semantics. There’s also, of course, the situation where there’s instructions not to resuscitate a patient, so not stepping in to prolong a life which is yet another scenario. So, arguably, we already have some non voluntary euthanasia in medical settings.

But to reiterate, the debate about non voluntary euthanasia is purely academic, as that’s not covered by the Bill anyway (or at least not as far as I’m aware).