There comes a point..

[hampshire_exile]

I have found this weekend to be as depressing as any I have seen in England for a long time. And that takes some doing in a year of a pandemic.

I have watched England steadily slide to the right over the past 10 years. It has disappointed me, but I recognise that we have a democratic electoral system.

What is starting to alarm me is where we are heading, if the general tone of discussion on this website is an indication of the views of the general public which I think it probably is.

We see a poor woman murdered, the Met refuse to engage with people who want a socially distanced vigil, and a totally inappropriate reaction from the police on the night. And yet we have a substantial number of people on here complaining about “left wing activists”.

We have a Government bringing forward legislation which will allow them to jail someone for up to 10 years for protesting and causing “annoyance”. And they will define what “annoyance” is. This is not a piece of COVID legislation, its here for good.

And as we saw last night once authorities have legislation in place, they can do what they like in interpreting it. And people on here say about last night “they shouldn’t protest, it’s illegal”. On that basis, they will presumably not have an issue when all protest has effectively been made illegal.

We see a 10,000 pound fine to a woman who brings 40 socially distanced people together to protest about a 1 per cent pay rise to nurses. Yet no action taken when thousands of Rangers fans gather in Glasgow. Different law maybe, different attitudes to protest definitely.

And yet the Tories have a 13 point lead over Labour. They utterly fucked up the first nine months of the pandemic, but you can only think that for the Tories to be ahead the prevailing view must be “I am still alive and isn’t the vaccine programme going well”.

I suppose the point of this post is where is this going to end? Like so many people who moved to England, my parents saw it as a beacon of fairness and decency and free speech. But I don’t see much sign of that at the moment.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Unfortunately Corbyn and his mates in Momentum have set the Labour Party back years. They’ve lost their appeal to the working man and basically need to get with it...They’re still stuck in “On the Buses” era Britain IMHO. Starmer is just vanilla and isn’t really going to pull up any trees and I actually think (despite the shyte during the pandemic) that the Tory Party probably better reflect the aspirations and interests of the British Public at thisvtime

So until we resolve that situation the Tory Party will continue to run amok.

I’m not actually convinced things are as negative as you suggest either... All too easy to focus on the negatives...

Britain is a fantastic country with great values and we continue to set the standards internationally.

 

[TwelveAngryMen]

Agreed we are a remarkably tolerant country - despite a Prince of the Realm trying to suggest otherwise

 

[dodgy_surname]

Just got to get on with it and roll on footy ️

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Unfortunately Corbyn and his mates in Momentum have set the Labour Party back years. They’ve lost their appeal to the working man and basically need to get with it...They’re still stuck in “On the Buses” era Britain IMHO. Starmer is just vanilla and isn’t really going to pull up any trees and I actually think (despite the shyte during the pandemic) that the Tory Party probably better reflect the aspirations and interests of the British Public at thisvtime

So until we resolve that situation the Tory Party will continue to run amok.

I’m not actually convinced things are as negative as you suggest either... All too easy to focus on the negatives...

Britain is a fantastic country with great values and we continue to set the standards internationally.

All the more reason to watch out for swings to the right.

As the gap between rich and poor widens people want someone to blame and there's always someone else who sees the opportunity to play the populist, we saw it in the US with Trump and there's no reason it couldn't happen here.

 

[tangerine_neil]

My message would be: read / watch the media a little less. It’s negative biased and not a true reflection of everyday life.

 

[catinstalbans]

The Tories are past masters at casting the blame on the rung below in the social strata and appealing to the selfishness of individuals.
Everyone knows that the NHS workers deserve a pay rise but the argument is put forward that they are being greedy because others have lost their jobs. A protest against the murder of a woman by a serving police officer which offered no threat of violence is violently broken up by the met police and this is deemed acceptable because the people arrested are activists.
Refugees, immigrants, benefit claimants, the disabled, are villified, to justify further cuts, but don't worry, if your town votes conservative the government may bung you a few million pounds to ease the pain a little bit, and if you don't learn the lesson about voting the "correct" way then the cuts and impoverishment of your local government will be accelerated until you do.

Meanwhile the richest get richer but those with less are blamed. The need for food banks is a national shame but because a tiny minority might exploit the situation every person depending on them is cast as dodgy.
They have control of the media, have the BBC in absolute fear of challenging the lies and corruption in the government, continue to undermine all public services, sneaking privatisation under the radar in the NHS, and now are seeking to ban protest that causes annoyance.
Brexit is a disaster with exports to Europe down 40%, company after company giving up trying to export to Europe because of the complications, the government plans to ignore the very deal they signed not 3 months ago breaking international law. The checks on the actions of government are being removed one by one and the very ideal of human rights is being rolled back. How long till the introduction of a law banning criticism of the idea of Britishness, the Royal Family, or the government.
Look at Turkey. This was a democracy with secular values and a modern outlook but an authoritarian government has effectively banned free speech, illegalised protest, stifled criticism despite the economy being in crisis, denial of historic abuses and no longer a free country. We are maybe 10 years behind, but we are on the same pathway.
We are not alone, Hungary, Poland well on the way and even France with it's equally abhorrent anti protest laws show the future.
And even on here a post calling Tories selfish is removed for no valid reason.
The Prime Minister lies with impunity, his cabinet break the law and bully their staff without consequence. Anyone trying to draw attention to the lies or wanting to hold the government to account is dismissed as far left. Yesterday marked the anniversary of the death of Tony Benn. An outstanding politician who was proven right on so many matters. Just what do you think the right wing goons would be saying about his politics if he was still in his prime today.

 

[Matesrates]

It’s called democracy, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go and live in Russia or China.

 

[catinstalbans]

It’s called democracy, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go and live in Russia or China.

Pathetic response.
The inevitable reminder that Hitler obtained power in a democracy then scrapped it.

 

[poolseasider]

Cat just sums it up in one post where rather than looking at the route problem why Labour are so far behind you just get a load of angry waffle it's the classic swerve the question as it should be how do we do better at least Jess Philips came out with some policy change this weekend.

36 MP's Scotland sent to Westminster in 1997 under Blair now they have just 1 and I can't see them ever getting them back and even in Wales they are down to only 22 and that's before you start to access England.

 

[Scaramanga]

Unfortunately Corbyn and his mates in Momentum have set the Labour Party back years. They’ve lost their appeal to the working man and basically need to get with it...They’re still stuck in “On the Buses” era Britain IMHO. Starmer is just vanilla and isn’t really going to pull up any trees and I actually think (despite the shyte during the pandemic) that the Tory Party probably better reflect the aspirations and interests of the British Public at thisvtime

So until we resolve that situation the Tory Party will continue to run amok.

I’m not actually convinced things are as negative as you suggest either... All too easy to focus on the negatives...

Britain is a fantastic country with great values and we continue to set the standards internationally.

Finally someone gets it.

 

[Matesrates]

Pathetic response.
The inevitable reminder that Hitler obtained power in a democracy then scrapped it.

And you think this government Is going to scrap democracy? Pathetic response.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

It’s called democracy, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go and live in Russia or China.

Why don't you address his points instead of inviting him to leave the country? Are you saying that anyone who thinks like Cat should be encouraged to leave the UK? That is akin to fascism. I thought that we had freedom of thought and speech here. What is so threatening to you about someone expressing an opinion that is different to your own?

On to the O/P. I am reminded of the 1980s in a way. A fairly weak, ineffectual opposition to a government that is free to implement whatever it wants. Most of the internal opposition (i.e. the one nation Conservatives) have now been removed from the parliamentary party and been replaced by right wing ideologues. The cabinet is full of people who are there because of their ideology rather than their talent, and that is quite a worrying thing. I want the most talented and effective people in the top jobs, do we really think that there is no-one better than Gavin Williamson or Robert Jenrick amongst the rest of the MPs. Greg Clark (for instance) is a talent (he leads the parliamentary science committee) and has been a junior minister before, however he is too one nation for Johnson's taste. It is worth pointing out that we are now being lead by what amount to English nationalists and we have no effective opposition. This is the most worrying time politically in my life time.

 

[Newholland]

Why don't you address his points instead of inviting him to leave the country? Are you saying that anyone who thinks like Cat should be encouraged to leave the UK? That is akin to fascism. I thought that we had freedom of thought and speech here. What is so threatening to you about someone expressing an opinion that is different to your own?

On to the O/P. I am reminded of the 1980s in a way. A fairly weak, ineffectual opposition to a government that is free to implement whatever it wants. Most of the internal opposition (i.e. the one nation Conservatives) have now been removed from the parliamentary party and been replaced by right wing ideologues. The cabinet is full of people who are there because of their ideology rather than their talent, and that is quite a worrying thing. I want the most talented and effective people in the top jobs, do we really think that there is no-one better than Gavin Williamson or Robert Jenrick amongst the rest of the MPs. Greg Clark (for instance) is a talent (he leads the parliamentary science committee) and has been a junior minister before, however he is too one nation for Johnson's taste. It is worth pointing out that we are now being lead by what amount to English nationalists and we have no effective opposition. This is the most worrying time politically in my life time.

Your reference to the cabinet may well be correct however for exactly the same reasons Corbyn and his momentum dominated ideology was simply unelectable...talentless extremism. Unfortunately polarised politics is dominant . We need to listen not preach, put forward credible alternative instead of hate filled criticism.

 

[Matesrates]

Why don't you address his points instead of inviting him to leave the country? Are you saying that anyone who thinks like Cat should be encouraged to leave the UK? That is akin to fascism. I thought that we had freedom of thought and speech here. What is so threatening to you about someone expressing an opinion that is different to your own?

On to the O/P. I am reminded of the 1980s in a way. A fairly weak, ineffectual opposition to a government that is free to implement whatever it wants. Most of the internal opposition (i.e. the one nation Conservatives) have now been removed from the parliamentary party and been replaced by right wing ideologues. The cabinet is full of people who are there because of their ideology rather than their talent, and that is quite a worrying thing. I want the most talented and effective people in the top jobs, do we really think that there is no-one better than Gavin Williamson or Robert Jenrick amongst the rest of the MPs. Greg Clark (for instance) is a talent (he leads the parliamentary science committee) and has been a junior minister before, however he is too one nation for Johnson's taste. It is worth pointing out that we are now being lead by what amount to English nationalists and we have no effective opposition. This is the most worrying time politically in my life time.

I’m not threatened by him at all, I feel sorry for him, he’s clearly a very unhappy person, particularly with regard to the country he lives in. Free speech is another issue which some like to pick & choose, Piers Morgan for example has been castigated by some on here simply for saying he doesn’t believe Meghan Markle. I don’t believe you when we say we’re being lead by a bunch of English nationalists, who by the way, we’re elected democratically.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

I’m not threatened by him at all, I feel sorry for him, he’s clearly a very unhappy person, particularly with regard to the country he lives in. Free speech is another issue which some like to pick & choose, Piers Morgan for example has been castigated by some on here simply for saying he doesn’t believe Meghan Markle. I don’t believe you when we say we’re being lead by a bunch of English nationalists, who by the way, we’re elected democratically.

I haven't heard anyone say on here or elsewhere that Piers Morgan should live in a different country because of his views.
'Free speech is another issue' - no it is not. Cat is merely expressing an opinion that you don't agree with - the very definition of freedom of thought and speech - and your reaction is that he should go and live in a different country (the very definition of anti-freedom of speech).
I suppose I should be glad that you haven't told me that I should live elsewhere for expressing an opinion that you don't agree with.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Your reference to the cabinet may well be correct however for exactly the same reasons Corbyn and his momentum dominated ideology was simply unelectable...talentless extremism. Unfortunately polarised politics is dominant . We need to listen not preach, put forward credible alternative instead of hate filled criticism.

I'm a bit confused, you agree with me but also imply that what I have put is also 'hate-filled' (a phrase that has some currency on here).
I agree with you about Corbyn, I would love to see a credible opposition who have a positive vision for our county and we are not getting that at the moment. The most important thing that could happen, IMO, is that the progressive parties form an electoral pact with the ultimate aim of changing our electoral system to something PR based. I am realistic enough to know that this has little chance of happening for now and the price would be indyref2 in Scotland so I think Labour would have to take a few more beatings before they would seriously consider this.
That change in itself would lead us away from the adversarial system that we have and perhaps a more cooperative type of politics which I feel would be for the better. It is a peculiar type of democracy where roughly 35% of the vote makes 100% of the decisions (and I mean that for both sides). This works when there are only two dominant parties (like in the US) but that is no longer the situation here.

 

[Matesrates]

I haven't heard anyone say on here or elsewhere that Piers Morgan should live in a different country because of his views.
'Free speech is another issue' - no it is not. Cat is merely expressing an opinion that you don't agree with - the very definition of freedom of thought and speech - and your reaction is that he should go and live in a different country (the very definition of anti-freedom of speech).
I suppose I should be glad that you haven't told me that I should live elsewhere for expressing an opinion that you don't agree with.

You miss my point entirely, I’m suggesting that he seems to prefer the sort of government in those countries, but the fact remains that all he does is criticise anything and everything about this country. My mantra is simple, if I’m unhappy with a situation, I take myself out of it.

 

[Newholland]

I'm a bit confused, you agree with me but also imply that what I have put is also 'hate-filled' (a phrase that has some currency on here).
I agree with you about Corbyn, I would love to see a credible opposition who have a positive vision for our county and we are not getting that at the moment. The most important thing that could happen, IMO, is that the progressive parties form an electoral pact with the ultimate aim of changing our electoral system to something PR based. I am realistic enough to know that this has little chance of happening for now and the price would be indyref2 in Scotland so I think Labour would have to take a few more beatings before they would seriously consider this.
That change in itself would lead us away from the adversarial system that we have and perhaps a more cooperative type of politics which I feel would be for the better. It is a peculiar type of democracy where roughly 35% of the vote makes 100% of the decisions (and I mean that for both sides). This works when there are only two dominant parties (like in the US) but that is no longer the situation here.

Sorry for the confusion, my reference to “ hate filled “ wasn’t your post but,as you have pointed out, more this board at times. PR is certainly an option but a change in mindset and attitude to each other would be a simple cost free improvement.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

You miss my point entirely, I’m suggesting that he seems to prefer the sort of government in those countries, but the fact remains that all he does is criticise anything and everything about this country. My mantra is simple, if I’m unhappy with a situation, I take myself out of it.

Perhaps, on a politics board, you can engage with people who think differently rather than flippantly suggesting that they live elsewhere. As for your mantra, that can work in some situations, but are you seriously saying that everyone who is unhappy with the government (and there are millions) should 'take themselves out of the situation' and live in another country?
Politics, in itself, is about changing society. What is actually so wrong with staying where you (i.e. in your own country) are and actively trying to change things for what you believe is the better? That is another one of our freedoms.

 

[spudgun]

You miss my point entirely, I’m suggesting that he seems to prefer the sort of government in those countries, but the fact remains that all he does is criticise anything and everything about this country. My mantra is simple, if I’m unhappy with a situation, I take myself out of it.

CISA constantly criticises the leader of the country, not the country per se.

Yet there are some on here who constantly criticise the manager of BFC and the decisions he takes.

Would you advise them to go and support another football club?

On the main point of the O/P, I have never felt more politically homeless.

I am glad that Labour intend to vote against the Police and Crime Bill this week as I do worry about this governments overreach on such matters.

And for the first time I can remember I am a tad concerned about civil liberties...

 

[Matesrates]

Perhaps, on a politics board, you can engage with people who think differently rather than flippantly suggesting that they live elsewhere. As for your mantra, that can work in some situations, but are you seriously saying that everyone who is unhappy with the government (and there are millions) should 'take themselves out of the situation' and live in another country?
Politics, in itself, is about changing society. What is actually so wrong with staying where you (i.e. in your own country) are and actively trying to change things for what you believe is the better? That is another one of our freedoms.

Nothing wrong with staying and fighting for what you believe in, but do you seriously think millions are as unhappy as this guy clearly is? Also if he wants change, does he really think that posting his rhetoric on a football forum is the way to go about it?

 

[southshore]

It is a little reassuring mind that we do have the option of living elsewhere rather than being thrown in jail for our anti government views.

So it aint all bad.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

It’s called democracy, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go and live in Russia or China.

Brilliant response, comedy gold. You were trying to be amusing weren't you?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Nothing wrong with staying and fighting for what you believe in, but do you seriously think millions are as unhappy as this guy clearly is? Also if he wants change, does he really think that posting his rhetoric on a football forum is the way to go about it?

And again, brilliant irony advising people not to post rhetoric on a football forum whilst posting lots of rhetoric on a football forum.

 

[TSSeasider]

The vast majority of the population of this country are conservative with a small 'c'.

They recognise what's good and what's bad, they instinctively, know what's right and wrong, they know hypocrisy when they see it, they don't spend their lives fretting about identity and intersectionality.

They don't feel the need to kneel to signal they aren't racists and on the whole enjoy life with a live and live mentality.

They know there's a small cohort who are racist and xenophobes but don't think it's unreasonable to expect immigrants to abide by our social norms.

They wonder why such a racist country is still a magnate for the world's dispossessed, who actually have to go through other nations to get here.

They don't see the need to apologise or feel guilty for stuff which happened 300 years ago. It has nothing to do with not caring but everything to do with letting bygones be bygones and there being literally nothing they can do about it.

They hate the idea that the only reason people have freedom of expression to insult our war time leaders is because those same leaders stood up to a fascist Germany and those doing the insulating deny that truth.

The population want decent education for our children, but not indoctrination.

They don't care that you're vegan any more than you being a Sagittarius.

They recognise that for a tiny number of people, gender dysphoria is real, but as we've seen this weekend, women are worried about men, and the huge majority believe somebody with a penis shouldn't be anywhere near women's toilets; even if they mean no harm. That doesn't make them transphobic.

They are heartbroken that a woman was murdered, but question vigil attendees chanting "no justice, no peace, fuck the police" - that's not acceptable and it doesn't make them sexist.

They question the need for using a food bank, whilst smoking, taking drugs, gambling and so on.

But they want children taken into care when they are victims of shit parenting and sexual exploitation and wonder why the state let thousands of, generally, white girls be abused for decades.

I could go on, but this isn't too difficult to get your head around, you just need to want to.

Don't start from a position that people are wrong because they don't have the same world view as you.

 

[Recidivist3]

Don't start from a position that people are wrong because they don't have the same world view as you.

That works both ways and yes, there are a lot of little ‘c’’s on here

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I'm not sure I'd feel as confident in prescribing how the majority of people in Britain think as you are TSS... How did you find all that stuff out?

 

[Shandypants]

I see a country where people look out for number 1. As long as they are fine they don't give a toss about people worse off or ill. That extends to public services, transport, education the future and sustainability of the planet. Most people in the UK aren't bothered and for that we get the politicians we deserve.

 

[gjr69]

It’s called democracy, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go and live in Russia or China.

It’s called democracy, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go and live in Russia or China.

I thought if you didn't like something in a democracy you could say you don't like it and try and change it.
Why does anyone have to leave, although a million have in the last year so maybe they have taken your advice!

 

[Threepeaksphil]

An interesting debate which we can have in the UK but couldn’t in China Russia etc. As has been said the Labour have a Mountain to climb and I’m not sure if Sir Keir is the man as when I comes on the screen for some reason I feel rather depressed and I voted labour in last election

 

[TSSeasider]

I'm not sure I'd feel as confident in prescribing how the majority of people in Britain think as you are TSS... How did you find all that stuff out?

I've listened to literally thousands of them in the town I live in through my work, and I'm the Chair of national organisation with 100'000s reach, all using the same basis of listening. Now, that's not to say it's everybody, bit it's a very good starting point.

I read and contribute to the research coming out of organisations including Joseph Rowntree Foundation, New Economics Foundation, Centre for Local Economic Strategy, Coops UK and plenty more.

I participate in a decent number of round tables, with participants across the spectrum from up and down England (with the occasional UK one for good measure). These range from meetings with Onward (on the right) to IPPR (on the left).

I'm a member of the APPG for 'Left Behind Neighbourhoods" and helped establish the APPG for Coastal Communities.

As I've posted on here in the last couple of weeks, I get to speak to Government Ministers (and tbf opposition politicians), on a regular basis because I can speak with authenticity and will say what I do because I've listened and I'm not afraid to challenge them.

I also read the press, have social media feeds through work from across the political spectrum and don't have an echo chamber or ignore or insult people because they have a different view to mine.

So, I'm fairly confident in what I say is based on what I hear, which bits do you disagree with and what's your basis for that?

 

[gjr69]

I've listened to literally thousands of them in the town I live in through my work, and I'm the Chair of national organisation with 100'000s reach, all using the same basis of listening. Now, that's not to say it's everybody, bit it's a very good starting point.

I read and contribute to the research coming out of organisations including Joseph Rowntree Foundation, New Economics Foundation, Centre for Local Economic Strategy, Coops UK and plenty more.

I participate in a decent number of round tables, with participants across the spectrum from up and down England (with the occasional UK one for good measure). These range from meetings with Onward (on the right) to IPPR (on the left).

I'm a member of the APPG for 'Left Behind Neighbourhoods" and helped establish the APPG for Coastal Communities.

As I've posted on here in the last couple of weeks, I get to speak to Government Ministers (and tbf opposition politicians), on a regular basis because I can speak with authenticity and will say what I do because I've listened and I'm not afraid to challenge them.

I also read the press, have social media feeds through work from across the political spectrum and don't have an echo chamber or ignore or insult people because they have a different view to mine and not do

So, I'm fairly confident in what way, which bits do you disagree with and what's your basis for that?

How many people under the age of 30 do you speak to, I'm not saying you are wrong and a lot of people are small c conservative but I don't think it is a vast majority who's inner most thoughts replicate a Daily Mail editorial!
The split is probably close to 52/48 like so many things and age is often a big factor in opinion, always has been.
One of the clever Greeks said democracy is dead when the old outnumber the young as they vote for the past and people should vote for the future.

 

[TSSeasider]

How many people under the age of 30 do you speak to, I'm not saying you are wrong and a lot of people are small c conservative but I don't think it is a vast majority who's inner most thoughts replicate a Daily Mail editorial!
The split is probably close to 52/48 like so many things and age is often a big factor in opinion, always has been.
One of the clever Greeks said democracy is dead when the old outnumber the young as they vote for the past and people should vote for the future.

Loads. In fact locally I've trained young people to listen to other young people and to articulate that to people in positions of power; nationally we have whole campaigns dedicated to enabling young people to use their voice.

There's a difference between young people with the space and belief that they own the future, and those from a town like Hartlepool where for more than half of them, they are more focused on the here and now

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I've listened to literally thousands of them in the town I live in through my work, and I'm the Chair of national organisation with 100'000s reach, all using the same basis of listening. Now, that's not to say it's everybody, bit it's a very good starting point.

I read and contribute to the research coming out of organisations including Joseph Rowntree Foundation, New Economics Foundation, Centre for Local Economic Strategy, Coops UK and plenty more.

I participate in a decent number of round tables, with participants across the spectrum from up and down England (with the occasional UK one for good measure). These range from meetings with Onward (on the right) to IPPR (on the left).

I'm a member of the APPG for 'Left Behind Neighbourhoods" and helped establish the APPG for Coastal Communities.

As I've posted on here in the last couple of weeks, I get to speak to Government Ministers (and tbf opposition politicians), on a regular basis because I can speak with authenticity and will say what I do because I've listened and I'm not afraid to challenge them.

I also read the press, have social media feeds through work from across the political spectrum and don't have an echo chamber or ignore or insult people because they have a different view to mine and not do

So, I'm fairly confident in what I say is based on what I hear, which bits do you disagree with and what's your basis for that?

I'm not saying I disagree with any of it really, but given that some of what you said is pretty specific in relation to how the majority of people feel / think and that you stated it with a certain sense of authority, I wondered where the information had come from. .... As I said in my comment, I certainly wouldn't feel armed with sufficient information to speak on behalf of "The majority of people in the UK" so itls quite interesting to a) hear someone who can and b) understand why they can.

 

[gjr69]

Loads.

Must be different to the ones I speak to, but the North East is very different to a lot of the country.

 

[TSSeasider]

Must be different to the ones I speak to, but the North East is very different to a lot of the country.

I edited my post to add a bit more to it.

 

[TSSeasider]

And I would add, that more often than not, people do the right things for the right reason and given half a chance are pretty kind.

You get the odd dickhead, but mostly not.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I have found this weekend to be as depressing as any I have seen in England for a long time. And that takes some doing in a year of a pandemic.

I have watched England steadily slide to the right over the past 10 years. It has disappointed me, but I recognise that we have a democratic electoral system.

What is starting to alarm me is where we are heading, if the general tone of discussion on this website is an indication of the views of the general public which I think it probably is.

We see a poor woman murdered, the Met refuse to engage with people who want a socially distanced vigil, and a totally inappropriate reaction from the police on the night. And yet we have a substantial number of people on here complaining about “left wing activists”.

We have a Government bringing forward legislation which will allow them to jail someone for up to 10 years for protesting and causing “annoyance”. And they will define what “annoyance” is. This is not a piece of COVID legislation, its here for good.

And as we saw last night once authorities have legislation in place, they can do what they like in interpreting it. And people on here say about last night “they shouldn’t protest, it’s illegal”. On that basis, they will presumably not have an issue when all protest has effectively been made illegal.

We see a 10,000 pound fine to a woman who brings 40 socially distanced people together to protest about a 1 per cent pay rise to nurses. Yet no action taken when thousands of Rangers fans gather in Glasgow. Different law maybe, different attitudes to protest definitely.

And yet the Tories have a 13 point lead over Labour. They utterly fucked up the first nine months of the pandemic, but you can only think that for the Tories to be ahead the prevailing view must be “I am still alive and isn’t the vaccine programme going well”.

I suppose the point of this post is where is this going to end? Like so many people who moved to England, my parents saw it as a beacon of fairness and decency and free speech. But I don’t see much sign of that at the moment.

Good post Hampshire. I feel the same but don't forget that whilst we have a democratic electoral system we also have a vehemently right-wing press.
I also believe that there is a socio-political model that follows a pattern. When times are good, there is an increasing tendency towards social democratic values. This happened, to a degree, in the sixties when people saw the potential for progress throughout the country and voted in the Wilson Government that appeared to have greater dynamism than the fusty old Tories. It also happened in the 90s when people could see the potential of better times ahead and found that they could not be delivered by the disorientated and arguing Tories.
However, when times are bad, as in the late 1920s-early 30s and following the Banking crash of 2008-09, people hunker down. They stop looking outward at what could be a good future for the country and, instead, look inward at the family and see a need for prudence. At times like that populism raises it's ugly head and people cast around looking at who they can blame. It is always their neighbours: those of colour or the (supposed) feckless who don't support themselves. These times are always ripe for the loud, outspoken hate-mongers and opportunists to take control or to have influence beyond their significance: the Brexiteers, the Farage anti-immigration pedlars, the opportunists in the mainstream who change their spots to gain power - Trump and Johnson.
It is not inevitable that we continue down this route to oblivion but it will take an upturn in our fortunes if people are to see the light and cast off the shroud of lunacy sewn by these extremist right-wing nutcases.

 

[gjr69]

Loads. In fact locally I've trained young people to listen to other young people and to articulate that to people in positions of power; nationally we have whole campaigns dedicated to enabling young people to use their voice.

There's a difference between young people with the space and belief that they own the future, and those from a town like Hartlepool where for more than half of them, they are more focused on the here and now

Much like Blackpool and the rest of the country outside the south east of England opportunity can be very limited.
When this pandemic is over and now that they have got Brexit done there should be massive pressure on the government to create opportunities all over the country.
I hope your young people let the Government know that they want to be the generation that won't settle for second best and scraps from the table.
Sounds like you do worthwhile work.

 

[TSSeasider]

Much like Blackpool and the rest of the country outside the south east of England opportunity can be very limited.
When this pandemic is over and now that they have got Brexit done there should be massive pressure on the government to create opportunities all over the country.
I hope your young people let the Government know that they want to be the generation that won't settle for second best and scraps from the table.
Sounds like you do worthwhile work.

I do my best, and to be fair the APPG for "Left Behind Neighbourhoods" are trying.

At one of my presentation I stated I hate the phrase because it presupposes we were at the same starting point. We weren't, and all the data demonstrate it.

The scale of the challenge is huge.

Hartlepool NVQ level 4's are at the GB average of 2004. That's a 16 year gap, or about an educational generation.

It's why £4bn for levelling up won't touch the sides, but stuff like Treasury of the North, might help (but obviously put it in the town with a direct flight to London and also on the East Coast Main Line, rather than a slightly more difficult journey!)

I'd like to think the Shared Prosperity Fund will help, but not enough has been finalised to know for sure.

 

[gjr69]

I do my best, and to be fair the APPG for "Left Behind Neighbourhoods" are trying.

At my presentation I stated I hate the phrase because it presupposes we were at the same starting point. We weren't, and all the data demonstrate it.

The scale of the challenge is huge.

Hartlepool NVQ level 4's are at the GB average of 2004. That's a 16 year gap, or about an educational generation.

It's why £4bn for levelling up won't touch the sides, but stuff like Treasury of the North, might help (but obviously put it in the town with a direct flight to London and also on the East Coast Main Line, rather than a slightly more difficult journey!)

I'd like to think the Shared Prosperity Fund will help, but not enough has been finalised to know for sure.

Something needs to change, my personal view is that a lot of people go in to politics to ensure that it doesn't, I hope you can do your bit to change that.

 

[TSSeasider]

Something needs to change, my personal view is that a lot of people go in to politics to ensure that it doesn't, I hope you can do your bit to change that.

I'm not in politics particularly; I work for a charity but obviously politics impacts on society.

I have no idea whether what I say, what other people who I support to have their say, will change things, but we try because I'm sick of having to take mitigating action because of a bad decision upstream.

It's why, I ask the questions on here.

I've got chance to be with 7 other people and Dido Harding to talk about test and trace. That's a good opportunity, but it's only an opportunity if I hear real life experiences. The more I get, the better the chance to see commonalities and so on. Far better to articulate that, than just what happened to me.

 

[gjr69]

I'm not in politics particularly; I work for a charity but obviously politics impacts on society.

I have no idea whether what I say, what other people who I support to have their say, will change things, but we try because I'm sick of having to take mitigating action because of a bad decision upstream.

It's why, I ask the questions on here.

I've got chance to be with 7 other people and Dido Harding to talk about test and trace. That's a good opportunity, but it's only an opportunity if I hear real life experiences. The more I get, the better the chance to see commonalities and so on. Far better to articulate that, than just what happened to me.

I think a large part of the problem is that politicians and people like Dido Harding are so far removed from real people that they really don't have a clue how we live.
Look at the lengths they go to at election time to make sure that everything is stage managed, they hate meeting real people that might challenge them, even more so when a TV camera is there!!
I hope you manage to achieve something.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I do my best, and to be fair the APPG for "Left Behind Neighbourhoods" are trying.

At one of my presentation I stated I hate the phrase because it presupposes we were at the same starting point. We weren't, and all the data demonstrate it.

The scale of the challenge is huge.

Hartlepool NVQ level 4's are at the GB average of 2004. That's a 16 year gap, or about an educational generation.

It's why £4bn for levelling up won't touch the sides, but stuff like Treasury of the North, might help (but obviously put it in the town with a direct flight to London and also on the East Coast Main Line, rather than a slightly more difficult journey!)

I'd like to think the Shared Prosperity Fund will help, but not enough has been finalised to know for sure.

Why the concentration on NVQ 4 rather than (say) level 3? Genuinely interested.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

The vast majority of the population of this country are conservative with a small 'c'.

They recognise what's good and what's bad, they instinctively, know what's right and wrong, they know hypocrisy when they see it, they don't spend their lives fretting about identity and intersectionality.

They don't feel the need to kneel to signal they aren't racists and on the whole enjoy life with a live and live mentality.

They know there's a small cohort who are racist and xenophobes but don't think it's unreasonable to expect immigrants to abide by our social norms.

They wonder why such a racist country is still a magnate for the world's dispossessed, who actually have to go through other nations to get here.

They don't see the need to apologise or feel guilty for stuff which happened 300 years ago. It has nothing to do with not caring but everything to do with letting bygones be bygones and there being literally nothing they can do about it.

They hate the idea that the only reason people have freedom of expression to insult our war time leaders is because those same leaders stood up to a fascist Germany and those doing the insulating deny that truth.

The population want decent education for our children, but not indoctrination.

They don't care that you're vegan any more than you being a Sagittarius.

They recognise that for a tiny number of people, gender dysphoria is real, but as we've seen this weekend, women are worried about men, and the huge majority believe somebody with a penis shouldn't be anywhere near women's toilets; even if they mean no harm. That doesn't make them transphobic.

They are heartbroken that a woman was murdered, but question vigil attendees chanting "no justice, no peace, fuck the police" - that's not acceptable and it doesn't make them sexist.

They question the need for using a food bank, whilst smoking, taking drugs, gambling and so on.

But they want children taken into care when they are victims of shit parenting and sexual exploitation and wonder why the state let thousands of, generally, white girls be abused for decades.

I could go on, but this isn't too difficult to get your head around, you just need to want to.

Don't start from a position that people are wrong because they don't have the same world view as you.

'They question the need for using a food bank, whilst smoking, taking drugs, gambling and so on.'

I stopped taking it seriously after that line.

 

[TSSeasider]

Why the concentration on NVQ 4 rather than (say) level 3? Genuinely interested.

The education stats for NVQ1-3 are about 10 years behind the GB average.

NVQ 4 is used as it's broadly a benchmark around entry to professional occupations and earnings. Obviously there are always outliers, but it's a decent predictor according to those that measure these things.

Our degree rate is pitifully low.

And Hartlepool isn't alone in this; it'll be the same in whole swathe of the country sadly.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

The vast majority of the population of this country are conservative with a small 'c'.

They recognise what's good and what's bad, they instinctively, know what's right and wrong, they know hypocrisy when they see it, they don't spend their lives fretting about identity and intersectionality.

They don't feel the need to kneel to signal they aren't racists and on the whole enjoy life with a live and live mentality.

They know there's a small cohort who are racist and xenophobes but don't think it's unreasonable to expect immigrants to abide by our social norms.

They wonder why such a racist country is still a magnate for the world's dispossessed, who actually have to go through other nations to get here.

They don't see the need to apologise or feel guilty for stuff which happened 300 years ago. It has nothing to do with not caring but everything to do with letting bygones be bygones and there being literally nothing they can do about it.

They hate the idea that the only reason people have freedom of expression to insult our war time leaders is because those same leaders stood up to a fascist Germany and those doing the insulating deny that truth.

The population want decent education for our children, but not indoctrination.

They don't care that you're vegan any more than you being a Sagittarius.

They recognise that for a tiny number of people, gender dysphoria is real, but as we've seen this weekend, women are worried about men, and the huge majority believe somebody with a penis shouldn't be anywhere near women's toilets; even if they mean no harm. That doesn't make them transphobic.

They are heartbroken that a woman was murdered, but question vigil attendees chanting "no justice, no peace, fuck the police" - that's not acceptable and it doesn't make them sexist.

They question the need for using a food bank, whilst smoking, taking drugs, gambling and so on.

But they want children taken into care when they are victims of shit parenting and sexual exploitation and wonder why the state let thousands of, generally, white girls be abused for decades.

I could go on, but this isn't too difficult to get your head around, you just need to want to.

Don't start from a position that people are wrong because they don't have the same world view as you.

I recognise all of the attitudes you refer to and, yes, they are prevalent but only in specific demographics. In the larger metropolises, where people are more likely to rub alongside different cultures and lifestyles and among younger people (16-40) who will have grown up with more tollerant views and a wider perspective on gender, race and class. It is true that, in general, the public does not focus on societal discriminators to the degree that we see in the broadsheet media and on current affairs TV. However, these issues do filter through over time and do inform everyday life to a level that is then taken on more permanently.

So, whilst your post has informative and relevant things to say, don't overlook its limitations.

 

[Davepick]

I have found this weekend to be as depressing as any I have seen in England for a long time. And that takes some doing in a year of a pandemic.

I have watched England steadily slide to the right over the past 10 years. It has disappointed me, but I recognise that we have a democratic electoral system.

What is starting to alarm me is where we are heading, if the general tone of discussion on this website is an indication of the views of the general public which I think it probably is.

We see a poor woman murdered, the Met refuse to engage with people who want a socially distanced vigil, and a totally inappropriate reaction from the police on the night. And yet we have a substantial number of people on here complaining about “left wing activists”.

We have a Government bringing forward legislation which will allow them to jail someone for up to 10 years for protesting and causing “annoyance”. And they will define what “annoyance” is. This is not a piece of COVID legislation, its here for good.

And as we saw last night once authorities have legislation in place, they can do what they like in interpreting it. And people on here say about last night “they shouldn’t protest, it’s illegal”. On that basis, they will presumably not have an issue when all protest has effectively been made illegal.

We see a 10,000 pound fine to a woman who brings 40 socially distanced people together to protest about a 1 per cent pay rise to nurses. Yet no action taken when thousands of Rangers fans gather in Glasgow. Different law maybe, different attitudes to protest definitely.

And yet the Tories have a 13 point lead over Labour. They utterly fucked up the first nine months of the pandemic, but you can only think that for the Tories to be ahead the prevailing view must be “I am still alive and isn’t the vaccine programme going well”.

I suppose the point of this post is where is this going to end? Like so many people who moved to England, my parents saw it as a beacon of fairness and decency and free speech. But I don’t see much sign of that at the moment.

You say 'the Met refuse to engage with people who wanted a socially distanced vigil'.
From what I saw on TV there was an absolute mob. No 'social distancing' whatsoever.
For a start the crowd was too big to keep 3 feet apart from each other.

 

[TSSeasider]

I recognise all of the attitudes you refer to and, yes, they are prevalent but only in specific demographics. In the larger metropolises, where people are more likely to rub alongside different cultures and lifestyles and among younger people (16-40) who will have grown up with more tollerant views and a wider perspective on gender, race and class. It is true that, in general, the public does not focus on societal discriminators to the degree that we see in the broadsheet media and on current affairs TV. However, these issues do filter through over time and do inform everyday life to a level that is then taken on more permanently.

So, whilst your post has informative and relevant things to say, don't overlook its limitations.

Of course it has it's limitations but statistically, outside of London, you are far, far more likely to live a significantly white community. There will have been minor changes over time, and the census is going to be interesting to see by how much.

However, much of the power and many of the decision makers and influencers (media) in the country is Londoncentric, which isn't reflective of the the life most people live. Just because they disagree with the focus of the massively amplified minority viewpoint doesn't make them prejudiced.