Wayne Couzens

[585 = never give up]

Two points to make about this horrendous case.

1. The death penalty - I don't agree with it for a few reasons. Firstly, I actually think it's less of a punishment to many criminals as it's an easy way out, as opposed to being locked in a cell for 40+ years. Hence why many criminals have to be put on suicide watch. What should be the case is that for all of those years there are absolutely no creature comforts at all. Secondly, I hear people saying that we should have the death penalty for cases when there's conclusively no doubt whatsoever. The problem with that is that there is no differentiation in law between different levels of guilt, nor should there be. You are either guilty or not guilty, and the death penalty would and should apply to cases involving DNA evidence and when there's not, for example. If you say the death penalty can't be for convictions without DNA evidence (again, using that as an example), then you're saying there is doubt, and you can't convict someone if there is doubt.

2. One of the biggest underlying problems we have in this country is a deep-seated culture of victim blaming. Whenever anything happens like this, the narrative always turns to what the victim can do, how they can be more careful. Anyone else remember that appalling advert a few years ago about burglary which condescendingly told us all not to be stupid and make our homes accessible to would-be burglars? Sorry but if I leave my doors and windows wide open and go away for a week and get burgled, the blame still lies with the burglar. We accept this victim blaming and often don't even realise it's happening. You can see it right now with officials coming out with what women should do in that situation, and they should read up on their legal rights etc. etc.. Yet we've heard hardly anything on what action is going to be taken to stop people like Wayne Couzens being able to commit these shocking crimes. This whole mindset needs to completely change. If you are a victim of crime, it is literally never your fault, because you are not in control of the culprits actions. As a society we need more of a switch to this way of thinking, otherwise there will never be the will and determination to tackle the actual root cause.

I hear what you say 53 but disagree.
If anyone (heaven forbid) killed one of my loved ones, I would gladly look in their eyes while injecting them.
A life on a segregated wing, with other similar freeks & terrorists, enjoying their privileges, is the easy way out - take an eye for an eye.
This coward didn't lift his head or even remove his covid mask, so that Sarah's parents could see him and the judge allowed it.
I've worked all my working life with victims of the most serious crimes and nothing eases their pain.
The term 'victim blaming' is one you've created and isn't recognised by any of the crime fighting or victim support agencies. It makes total sense that guidance & advice is given to reduce the chances of becoming a victim; however, that advice will not work all the time.

 

[Wizaard]

All kicking off in North Yorkshire. The Police and Crime Commissioner has said that Sarah Everard should have known that the reason for arrest wasn't a valid one.

Unsurprisingly he's been hauled over the coals.

Basically it's her fault for not knowing the intricacies of law.

Disgraceful.

 

[BFC_53]

I hear what you say 53 but disagree.
If anyone (heaven forbid) killed one of my loved ones, I would gladly look in their eyes while injecting them.
A life on a segregated wing, with other similar freeks & terrorists, enjoying their privileges, is the easy way out - take an eye for an eye.
This coward didn't lift his head or even remove his covid mask, so that Sarah's parents could see him and the judge allowed it.
I've worked all my working life with victims of the most serious crimes and nothing eases their pain.
The term 'victim blaming' is one you've created and isn't recognised by any of the crime fighting or victim support agencies. It makes total sense that guidance & advice is given to reduce the chances of becoming a victim; however, that advice will not work all the time.

I think we'll definitely have to respectfully disagree on the death penalty. I don't support eye for an eye justice, and if the death penalty doesn't solve anything other than a lust for vengeance then it's not for me. I think there might be a case if it was a proven deterrent however it isn't - the US has a much higher murder rate than we have. Nothing will change my mind on that, as I suspect yours won't either.

I may have created the term 'victim blaming' but it's a real thing, regardless of whether crime fighting agencies recognise it or not. As I say, that's why we get adverts implying that if we're burgled, it's probably our own fault for not securing our homes properly - i.e. you're blaming the victim. Look on the news now how much discussion there is around what women can do to protect themselves and be more careful. The direct implication of this is that Sarah Everard died because she wasn't careful enough, or didn't know her legal rights.....which is wrong and completely ridiculous. I'm not saying people shouldn't take precautions necessarily, just that it should never be the focus of crime prevention or investigations/inquiries into crimes and the aftermath, and I'm afraid I think it is right now and has been for a while. People rarely commit such serious and terrible crimes without there being warning signs, and the focus should be on what should be done to spot them and take action, not on how law abiding people can be more careful.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

All kicking off in North Yorkshire. The Police and Crime Commissioner has said that Sarah Everard should have known that the reason for arrest wasn't a valid one.

Unsurprisingly he's been hauled over the coals.

Basically it's her fault for not knowing the intricacies of law.

Disgraceful.

It’s disgraceful how Cressida Dick is still in her job.
Over the years she’s been in the spotlight for numerous issues regarding Police cockups many in the Met itself.
Home Secretary should set an example and sack her but she’s no balls either. (Pardon the pun)

 

[Ooh It’s a Corner]

Should be publicly hung drawn and quartered whilst any family the scum has should be forced to watch

 

[Bend it like Suddick]

It’s disgraceful how Cressida Dick is still in her job.
Over the years she’s been in the spotlight for numerous issues regarding Police cockups many in the Met itself.
Home Secretary should set an example and sack her but she’s no balls either. (Pardon the pun)

Although I can't stick her, and agree there are certain 'incidents' in her career she should be accountable for, I don't think she deserves to be sacked over this.

Yes she is the figurehead of the force, but she shouldn't ultimately be accountable for failings in the Recruitment department of her Force, which would seem to be a fault of unnamed individuals rather than Force policy/procedure.

If she was aware of these failings at the time, then that is a totally different matter.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Although I can't stick her, and agree there are certain 'incidents' in her career she should be accountable for, I don't think she deserves to be sacked over this.

Yes she is the figurehead of the force, but she shouldn't ultimately be accountable for failings in the Recruitment department of her Force, which would seem to be a fault of unnamed individuals rather than Force policy/procedure.

If she was aware of these failings at the time, then that is a totally different matter.

That’s fair enough but it’s just a combination of things that she’s had to stand in front of the cameras for over the last few years when is enough enough?

 

[Bend it like Suddick]

That’s fair enough but it’s just a combination of things that she’s had to stand in front of the cameras for over the last few years when is enough enough?

good point

 

[Lost Seasider]

Should be publicly hung drawn and quartered whilst any family the scum has should be forced to watch

What have the family done?

 

[Since1967]

An extract from Lord Justice Fulfords comments when sentencing Couzens;

' This has been the most impressive police investigation that I have encountered in the 30 years I have been sitting as a part-time and full-time judge. The speed with which the evidence leading to the arrest of the defendant was secured is highly notable, as has been the painstaking reconstruction of these events using electronic material along with more old-fashioned methods of policing. It cannot be suggested in my view that the Metropolitan Police, even for a moment, attempted to close ranks to protect one of their own. Instead, remorselessly, efficiently and impartially the investigating officers followed all the available leads, resulting in an overwhelming case against the accused. Meriting particular mention are Detective Chief Inspector Catherine Goodwin, Detective Kim Martin and Acting Detective Inspector Lee Tullett. Mr Tullett has been a key figure in the investigation and the preparation of this case, going well beyond what could properly be expected of any police officer, and his role deserves high commendation'

 

[Lytham_fy8]

BFC_53's first

Although I can't stick her, and agree there are certain 'incidents' in her career she should be accountable for, I don't think she deserves to be sacked over this.

Yes she is the figurehead of the force, but she shouldn't ultimately be accountable for failings in the Recruitment department of her Force, which would seem to be a fault of unnamed individuals rather than Force policy/procedure.

If she was aware of these failings at the time, then that is a totally different matter.

She should be held accountable, otherwise what's the point of her role?

 

[Bend it like Suddick]

She should be held accountable, otherwise what's the point of her role?

Lytham, in virtually any profession, the senior person in that particular institution would not be deemed responsible for the failings of a junior position, unless that senior person was complicit or aware or having made repeated misjudgements in a particular matter.
CD in this case hasnt

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Lytham, in virtually any profession, the senior person in that particular institution would not be deemed responsible for the failings of a junior position, unless that senior person was complicit or aware or having made repeated misjudgements in a particular matter.
CD in this case hasnt

It's more than that though, trust in the Met is in the gutter, it's a serious of scandals that she claims no responsibility for, at some point the person at the top has to fall on their sword for the good of their profession.

 

[bfcpete]

Feel really sorry for the woman and the her family.
He does deserve the death sentence for such a crime
Also worrying is that the Met has always seemed to have a sizeable minority of 'bad apples', including this Whatsapp police group Couzens was in and where he was referred to as The Rapist. What kind of people does that suggest they are? And too many police are not suspended when serious sexual or other improper allegations are made against them (including Couzens). And he had a history before he joined the Met. What standard of vetting does that show?

 

[AndrewDuncanSmith]

For such a crime the Americans would have confined him on their Death Row for 20 years then tortured him to death.

 

[Ooh It’s a Corner]

What have the family done?

They will have harboured him , they will wring their hands and try and find excuses for his actions , they will get to visit the filth for the rest of his scummy life paid for by me and you and he should know as he dies that they know and see him dying an agonising death and thats justice

 

[Shandypants]

To add insult to injury fellow officers spoke in support of Couzens during the sentencing. Crikey they really are taking the piss.
Secondly the way the police tackled the Sarah Everard vigil comes back to mind, bloody awful.

Met Police officers spoke in support of Wayne Couzens, judge reveals

Lord Justice Fulford said officers had "spoken supportively" of the murderer

inews.co.uk

 

[Lala]

Nicola Sturgeon blasts 'appalling' cops commissioner over Sarah Everard comments

North Yorkshire's Police and Crime Commissioner Philip Allott said Sarah Everard should have never 'submitted' to her fake arrest in March this year.

www.google.com

I don’t always agree with NS but she’s damn right to call this idiot out

 

[Lala]

Officers who traded sick messages with Couzens are still on duty

The Met constables are alleged to have been part of a WhatsApp group involving officers from three forces who fell under investigation after Couzens's phone was seized following his arrest.

www.google.com

Also, they were handed evidence on a plate regarding the McDonalds flashing incident. It identified Couzens as the car owner and they did absolutely nothing !

Why would you not pursue this, policeman or not?

It doesn’t give the public any confidence that reported crimes will be acted upon.
Shocking.

 

[traffordtang]

Lytham, in virtually any profession, the senior person in that particular institution would not be deemed responsible for the failings of a junior position, unless that senior person was complicit or aware or having made repeated misjudgements in a particular matter.
CD in this case hasnt

It has transpired that the Met don’t take indecent exposure seriously Even when it’s one of their own. That’s not misjudgement or one bad apple. That’s policy and she cannot be allowed to wriggle out of her responsibilities.
She just comes across as another one who loves the kudos of the job without accepting any responsibility when things go wrong

 

[911_Kirky]

They’ve got indisputable proof that he did it so why isn’t he being put to death. Be good to see him fry in an electric chair or a good public hanging. Now we have to pay to keep the vermin scum oxygen thief.

I totally agree. I think if there’s 100% proof the death sentence should be brought back. You take a life (murder) you should pay with your own! Why should people like this live?

 

[traffordtang]

Nicola Sturgeon blasts 'appalling' cops commissioner over Sarah Everard comments

North Yorkshire's Police and Crime Commissioner Philip Allott said Sarah Everard should have never 'submitted' to her fake arrest in March this year.

www.google.com

I don’t always agree with NS but she’s damn right to call this idiot out

It seems like when horrific things like this happen it’s some people’s automatic thought process to look for reasons to blame the victim. They just don’t understand the concept of victim blaming.
We actually don’t know whether she did challenge him but it’s irrelevant. He’s a monster and it’s highly unlikely he would have just waved her off if she did challenge him. And even if she had got away he would have just found some other victim.

 

[Lost Seasider]

I totally agree. I think if there’s 100% proof the death sentence should be brought back. You take a life (murder) you should pay with your own! Why should people like this live?

We kept hanging the wrong people.

 

[Wizaard]

It's more than that though, trust in the Met is in the gutter, it's a serious of scandals that she claims no responsibility for, at some point the person at the top has to fall on their sword for the good of their profession.

She's following the example set by the politicians. There is no such thing as a resignation matter anymore.

 

[Bend it like Suddick]

It has transpired that the Met don’t take indecent exposure seriously Even when it’s one of their own. That’s not misjudgement or one bad apple. That’s policy and she cannot be allowed to wriggle out of her responsibilities.
She just comes across as another one who loves the kudos of the job without accepting any responsibility when things go wrong

Thats what Senior officers and CPS are for. A Commissioner doesn't get involved personally with cases. I don't like the woman and having being a Bobby in London too, I can't stand the Met, and I don't know where you get 'The Met don't take indecent exposure seriously', but as ive intimated previously, any matter of that gravity is dealt with by lower ranks and CPS. In this case the buck stops with them.

 

[traffordtang]

Thats what Senior officers and CPS are for. A Commissioner doesn't get involved personally with cases. I don't like the woman and having being a Bobby in London too, I can't stand the Met, and I don't know where you get 'The Met don't take indecent exposure seriously', but as ive intimated previously, any matter of that gravity is dealt with by lower ranks and CPS. In this case the buck stops with them.

There was a quote on the BBC from someone in the met (can’t find it today) that they would now take indecent exposure claims more seriously. I think it’s clear from this case just how serious they took it when they failed to investigate a claim against a serving officer.
Just seen this quote on today’s website - Police must take harassment and flashing more seriously, Priti Patel said, as forces face questions over how violence against women is dealt with in the wake of Sarah Everard's murder.
She may not be personally involved with cases but surely she must have some say in how crimes are prioritised

 

[Shandypants]

I totally agree. I think if there’s 100% proof the death sentence should be brought back. You take a life (murder) you should pay with your own! Why should people like this live?

I watched a programme where an innocent bloke went to prison on fingerprint evidence. Juries love stuff like that, it becomes black and white and very easy to find someone guilty. Anyway the fingerprint evidence was absolute garbage, an "expert" had deemed it a match. The programme highlighted the inaccuracies of this evidence, it shocked me how wooly fingerprint analysis is. Also the forensic science service went from the public sector to private sector, how certain can we be the DNA evidence isn't tainted etc? It all goes down to competence and trust. If you are doing jury service and the expert says the DNA evidence is a one in a million match its game over but who monitors the quality of the information.

 

[Bend it like Suddick]

There was a quote on the BBC from someone in the met (can’t find it today) that they would now take indecent exposure claims more seriously. I think it’s clear from this case just how serious they took it when they failed to investigate a claim against a serving officer.
Just seen this quote on today’s website - Police must take harassment and flashing more seriously, Priti Patel said, as forces face questions over how violence against women is dealt with in the wake of Sarah Everard's murder.
She may not be personally involved with cases but surely she must have some say in how crimes are prioritised

To be fair Trafford, the Met have always had a lot to answer for. They should never be promoted as the 'Model Force'

 

[thefutureistangerine]

Every walk of life has 'bad apples'

More than 750 Met Police employees faced sexual misconduct allegations since 2010 – with just 83 sacked - as reported in the i Paper today. Also, UK police forces have received more than 800 allegations of domestic abuse against officers and staff over the last five years.

There's a systemic problem and there has been a massive institutional failure, in my opinion, rather than a 'bad apple'.

Unless you're using the full aphorism: "one bad apple can spoil the bunch", meaning the bad ones have a toxic affect on those/many around them. Might explain why Couzens was in a WhatsApp group with other colleagues found to contain misogynistic, homophobic and racist messages. Or why he was nicknamed 'The Rapist' by other members of the force, or why he was still employed after indecent exposure charges. It feels to me that there is a certain culture which has permeated.

Sorry to have jumped on one phrase you've used, but the events of the last few days have been pretty infuriating. Again, it's just my opinion and I'm aware yours will probably differ.

 

[Lala]

Police Scotland introduces 'simple' verification check for officers working on their own

The process has been introduced following the murder of Sarah Everard, who was kidnapped, raped and killed by Wayne Couzens, a serving police officer.

www.google.com

Well done Scotland, it’s a start.

Far better than having to make a gut decision on when to run and shout for help or when to comply. Let’s face it that’s what you would do if any weirdo approached you and it’s not a guarantee of safety at all.