Youth Team Players

SeasideKurt

SeasideKurt

Well-known member
Is it an unwritten rule at Blackpool FC where you're not allowed to play them?

We have a striker on the bench who has scored a decent amount for the youth team.

We have a striker on the pitch who has run himself into the ground every game for months on end. Mostly Saturday/Tuesday week in week out.

What harm is there on giving him 15 minutes? What if he nicks one?

I said the same against Burton. I honestly walk away from some games with shit loads of questions about Critchley. Which is even more frustrating when you're sat 4th and feel like we could be higher.

Onto Saturday but I hope those 11 recover well.
 
He wouldn't have got a touch if we'd brought him on, the other two strikers didn't. It wasn't that we were creating chances and spurning them, bar Kaikai's chances. It wasn't the right game for a young striker tonight.
 
Tango1953 said:
He wouldn't have got a touch if we'd brought him on, the other two strikers didn't. It wasn't that we were creating chances and spurning them, bar Kaikai's chances. It wasn't the right game for a young striker tonight.
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When is then? He has to find out the physicality? And we have to find out if he's up for it. They didn't have a sniff, maybe he might have got lucky. We've spunked youth team prospects for YEARS and in danger of doing the same.
 
When we can offer him some service. Could have had Ronaldo upfront and he'd have barely had a kick. It's not as simple as add a striker to get goals.
Never said it was, but if you never ** actually play them, how can they ever show you what they've got? Strikers have off nights. We weren't playing a good side. A very average side who came for a point.
 
SeasideKurt said:
When is then? He has to find out the physicality? And we have to find out if he's up for it. They didn't have a sniff, maybe he might have got lucky. We've spunked youth team prospects for YEARS and in danger of doing the same.
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I'd argue we are probably investing more time and energy into the youth team than we've ever previously had. Give it time and they will feature more.

I get your point and frustration, but at the business end of the season I don't think we are going to see someone chucked on for their first senior appearance when every single point counts for the playoff push.
 
Macseasider said:
Funny how other nations seem to play these young kids. It's a very British nonsense not to.
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in essence I agree, but there is a huge difference in a technically good youngster coming on in a footballing match, to a Div 1 battle against giants and non-players.

There is a time and tonight wasn’t it.
 
He may not have gotten a touch* but I'm sure he would have at least ran his socks off

* not sure Simms got a touch in the last 10 mins either anyway. Plus Simms hadn't played 1 single minute of professional football either beforw coming to us, so again, happy to bring in other teams youngsters?
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
in essence I agree, but there is a huge difference in a technically good youngster coming on in a footballing match, to a Div 1 battle against giants and non-players.

There is a time and tonight wasn’t it.
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Well we'll have to disagree on that. I'm with Kurt. I'd have stuck the kid on for Jerry for the last 10 minutes.
 
You notice Premier League youngsters from the pinnacle of youth team football at the age of 21/22 struggle in their first handful of fixtures in senior football.

Bringing on 18 year old Brad Holmes in the most pressurised period of the season for either Yates (your top scorer) or Simms when its 0 - 0 at home is misguided IMO.
 
SeasideKurt said:
When we can offer him some service. Could have had Ronaldo upfront and he'd have barely had a kick. It's not as simple as add a striker to get goals.
Never said it was, but if you never ** actually play them, how can they ever show you what they've got? Strikers have off nights. We weren't playing a good side. A very average side who came for a point.
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Not the strikers, it was our lack of ability to open them up, often enough, in midfield.

If Sully scores, if Garbutt’s shot goes in......we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Fine margins and a youngster is not going to make that difference.
 
TangerinePeel said:
You notice Premier League youngsters from the pinnacle of youth team football at the age of 21/22 struggle in their first handful of fixtures in senior football.

Bringing on 18 year old Brad Holmes in the most pressurised period of the season for either Yates (your top scorer) or Simms when its 0 - 0 at home is misguided IMO.
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He's not playing against Pique or Maldini ffs.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Not the strikers, it was our lack of ability to open them up, often enough, in midfield.

If Sully scores, if Garbutt’s shot goes in......we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Fine margins and a youngster is not going to make that difference.
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It was the strikers. Simms had a poor touch all evening and everything Jerry tried was awful.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Not the strikers, it was our lack of ability to open them up, often enough, in midfield.

If Sully scores, if Garbutt’s shot goes in......we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Fine margins and a youngster is not going to make that difference.
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Poor attitude that has seen us lose prospects year upon year. Exactly the sort of game you find out what a player is made of.
 
SeasideKurt said:
When is then? He has to find out the physicality? And we have to find out if he's up for it. They didn't have a sniff, maybe he might have got lucky. We've spunked youth team prospects for YEARS and in danger of doing the same.
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I can see Holmes, Apter and Bange moving on elsewhere.
 
Should have put him on, worth a try, our usual lads weren't scoring.

There's no real pressure, if he doesn't score we weren't looking likely anyway if he has a chance then its suddenly positive.

Pretty sure Apter came on and looked decent although a few up by then.

Its almost a free hit as if it doesnt work we say well its his first game but sometimes it can click.
 
I've commented on this many times and probably bored most posters to death.
The problem is giving the youngsters that graduate from the Academy with honours some experience so that we can actually find out how good they are.
None of the kids that played pre-season embarrassed themselves but that's really all we've seen of them.
I'm biased from watching these kids at Youth level and I accept they are only playing Cat 3 teams.
Something needs to happen but tonight wasn't that occasion.
 
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SeasideKurt said:
He's not playing against Pique or Maldini ffs.
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What a ridiculous thing to say, I sincerely hope you're a WUM coming out with stuff like that.

Neither are the 22/23 year olds who come from the best of the best Premier League youth teams and struggle to adapt to League One football in their first few games.

Taking off your top goalscorer to allow a youth team player to make their debut in the most important stage of the season, whilst you're 0 - 0 at home is not how you get promoted. I'm all for giving youth a chance but at THIS stage of the season you don't do that - it isn't a free hit, it isn't a pressure free zone, it is one of your very few games left of the season when you're attempting to secure a play-off spot - you DON'T take risks.

Do you ever remember us bringing on youth team players in any season where we've got promoted before? This period in the season isn't where you test the youth.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Not the strikers, it was our lack of ability to open them up, often enough, in midfield.

If Sully scores, if Garbutt’s shot goes in......we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Fine margins and a youngster is not going to make that difference.
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Pool midfield is very average, there's been a lack of real quality in there all season. Dougall is poor, hopefully Stewart will soon be fit to return which should at least improve control and passing of the ball.
 
TangerinePeel said:
What a ridiculous thing to say, I sincerely hope you're a WUM coming out with stuff like that.

Neither are the 22/23 year olds who come from the best of the best Premier League youth teams and struggle to adapt to League One football in their first few games.

Taking off your top goalscorer to allow a youth team player to make their debut in the most important stage of the season, whilst you're 0 - 0 at home is not how you get promoted. I'm all for giving youth a chance but at THIS stage of the season you don't do that - it isn't a free hit, it isn't a pressure free zone, it is one of your very few games left of the season when you're attempting to secure a play-off spot - you DON'T take risks.

Do you ever remember us bringing on youth team players in any season where we've got promoted before? This period in the season isn't where you test the youth.
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Plenty have adapted, HUNDREDS under the age of 22. So not even sure what you're talking about.
 
Simms is a big strong lad, very talented and a future ahead of him. He’s come from scoring goals at Category 1 Academy level, and the jump to Div 1 has been a challenge for him.

Our youngsters are playing at Category 3 level and arguably some of our best have struggled loaned out to lower league teams. Blooding kids in tonight’s game would have done them or the team no favours.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Simms is a big strong lad, very talented and a future ahead of him. He’s come from scoring goals at Category 1 Academy level, and the jump to Div 1 has been a challenge for him.

Our youngsters are playing at Category 3 level and arguably some of our best have struggled loaned out to lower league teams. Blooding kids in tonight’s game would have done them or the team no favours.
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Wouldn't have harmed either or done anything other than give them a run out.

If we live cautiously we'll never seen youth kids play for Blackpool.
 
But there are players graduating from Cat 3 academies, that have been given a chance doing very well. Kyle Joseph, Luke Matheson and Callum Styles, all of whom I've watched against BFC, to name but three.
 
No way I would have taken Yates off however Simms was poor as was Embleton
How we don't make any changes is beyond me
I'm in two minds over Brad however we could have brought Hubby on, pushed Garbutt up and KK into the 10 role or Mitchell into either wide role
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Yes, and he’s probably the most dangerous and clinical striker in the Division. No manager, not one, would have taken him off, in that match situation.
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He looked as likely as scoring as Maxwell, just because you're one of the best players in the division doesn't mean you're not tired. He's been over used. He wasn't scoring tonight and wouldn't have if he came back tomorrow. Take Simms off instead then in this scenario, but doing absolutely fuck all is just massively strange.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
No way I would have taken Yates off however Simms was poor as was Embleton
How we don't make any changes is beyond me
I'm in two minds over Brad however we could have brought Hubby on, pushed Garbutt up and KK into the 10 role or Mitchell into either wide role
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I expect NC is worried about injuries, so likely that’s why Mitchell didn’t come on.

Sully being criticised tonight, not just for his misses, but the way we played did not get the best out of him. As you say, it was crying out for him in the no.10 role, and I wonder if we might see him there Saturday.
 
The big question is... who we going to bring in if Jerry tweaks a muscle in training?

We can dither about it, but it's Holmes or Bange who are striker no3 at the moment.

I tend to agree tonight was not the night probably, but last week, we were 2-0 up, creating a hatful of chances (And missing them) and we didn't do it then. IF we had, I suppose we might have conceded 2 late goals and ceded the momentum entirely for the last 20 minutes.

Yes, that's total 100% hindsight, but I also think it's misguided to run your key player, the talisman, the one goalscorer into the ground, week after week after week, to protect a kid from running the channels for 10 minutes or so with energy and excitement. They WANT to play. They're DESPERATE to play.

To me, the benefits and drawbacks are about equal. We've got 8 fit defenders. Great. But we've only got 8 fit attackers/midfielders, 1 of whom (Robson) isn't trusted to start and Demi, I don't think is 100% (hence him being saved for Sunderland) - that's 6 fit player for 6 positions (and Embleton can't play in two of the games as well)

Then there's Antwi, Shaw, Apter, Bange and Holmes. I can't think of any other options if any of our wingers/attackers/midfielders gets a knock.

Maybe they will struggle - but what else do we do if we have one more injury other than turn to one of them? We've got players hypothetically returning but it does trouble me, that we don't have any cover at all, literally zero, in some positions at this point.

The kids getting 10 mins versus a kid having to start is a big difference.
 
TangerinePeel said:
What a ridiculous thing to say, I sincerely hope you're a WUM coming out with stuff like that.

Neither are the 22/23 year olds who come from the best of the best Premier League youth teams and struggle to adapt to League One football in their first few games.

Taking off your top goalscorer to allow a youth team player to make their debut in the most important stage of the season, whilst you're 0 - 0 at home is not how you get promoted. I'm all for giving youth a chance but at THIS stage of the season you don't do that - it isn't a free hit, it isn't a pressure free zone, it is one of your very few games left of the season when you're attempting to secure a play-off spot - you DON'T take risks.

Do you ever remember us bringing on youth team players in any season where we've got promoted before? This period in the season isn't where you test the youth.
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It's a risk to not give them 10 minutes at some point or other when you've not got any other cover at all and then may end up having to use them in anger when they've never actually experienced first team football.

It's not a binary argument. There are shades of grey in this imo.
 
poolfc said:
Maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. I would imagine with the development level that Critchley has come from (Crewe/Liverpool) it's probably caused a few eye openers for him when looking at ours. And he's still a youth himself in terms of proving himself as a first team coach who has to get results to stay in a job now, whilst trying to balance the club telling him they have aspirations for a youth team. And with shit suddenly having got real already in his first year. So it would be an absolute last resort thing (at which point you just do a Burton/Lincoln and pull a sickie for a couple of weeks to try and get yourself sorted out) or if 3/4 goals clear in a game, and confident the goal diff won't slip by sending a little lad on to mill about for the last 5/10. Unless he was playing out a dead rubber season during normal season ticket renewal time and the club were promising brighter days, pathway for youth etc, as fans lap up that kind of stuff.

But whilst we're playing for points/goal diff/league position then the question tonight for me is probably more where was Jordan Thorniley. As our one remaining available senior player, who isn't Bez Lubala.
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But there's no point in having Thorniley on the bench when husband is fit.

Last week I thought it was absurd to have an entire back four on the bench. I'd have had Shaw or Apter on.

I like Thorniley but he's not going to much good on the right wing if the right winger breaks down. Husband can play left centre back and Marvin is also on the bench and Ballard has played left side when he started with Marvin.

Thorniley serves no purpose when Gretarsson is fit and the rest of the defence is also.
 
td53 said:
But there's no point in having Thorniley on the bench when husband is fit.

Last week I thought it was absurd to have an entire back four on the bench. I'd have had Shaw or Apter on.

I like Thorniley but he's not going to much good on the right wing if the right winger breaks down. Husband can play left centre back and Marvin is also on the bench and Ballard has played left side when he started with Marvin.

Thorniley serves no purpose when Gretarsson is fit and the rest of the defence is also.
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Yes hopefully not an injury reason that one. Expected him to still be in the 18 after the Gillingham line up, which is the first time seven spare seniors could be named for a while before Mitchell dropped out at the weekend.

I think these YT lads on the bench, particularly if there's nobody else because of the injuries (and Bez), and NC thinks it won't have an effect either way, is him pretty much naming a +1. It looks good and cascades down to the academy set up that the door isn't completely closed on his side to the top performers at that level. And if anyone does manage to make inroads in time then it will reflect on where it all started. But whilst we're playing to finish above a dotted line then this is the best he can do. Anderson, Madine, Stewart available and the dynamic completely changes.
 
poolfc said:
Yes hopefully not an injury reason that one. Expected him to still be in the 18 after the Gillingham line up, which is the first time seven spare seniors could be named for a while before Mitchell dropped out at the weekend.

I think these YT lads on the bench, particularly if there's nobody else because of the injuries (and Bez), and NC thinks it won't have an effect either way, is him pretty much naming a +1. It looks good and cascades down to the academy set up that the door isn't completely closed on his side to the top performers at that level. And if anyone does manage to make inroads in time then it will reflect on where it all started. But whilst we're playing to finish above a dotted line then this is the best he can do. Anderson, Madine, Stewart available and the dynamic completely changes.
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Currently, the door is absolutely and 100% closed. The more I think about it, the more ridiculous the argument was last night.

I saw an 18 year old lad get game time for Bath Rugby the other week, academy prospect. The size and physical nature of football is a load of bullshit. The way Accrington players threw themselves to the ground at numerous points last night proves that. For me it points to playing it safe and hoping for the same result when it was clear as day to everyone that Jerry wasn't doing anything nor getting enough of the ball. Same for Simms.

There are no draw backs to giving a young hungry lad who wouldn't have respected anything about the Accrington players a little run around. They are the moments where you find your Charlie Austin, your Billy Sharps.

Giving a young striker and hungry academy prospect 15 minutes would have sent better signals, than keeping him on the bench when your strikers have done absolutely fuck all but fluff their lines. Last night and Burton, were very poor messages to send to our youth set up.
 
td53 said:
It's a risk to not give them 10 minutes at some point or other when you've not got any other cover at all and then may end up having to use them in anger when they've never actually experienced first team football.

It's not a binary argument. There are shades of grey in this imo.
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No I agree there could be times to use them, but last night wasn't one when it's still 0 - 0 in one of your last games.

Maybe if Lincoln got to the final 10 minutes still at 0 - 2 we might have seen some youth come on. I think maybe Critch is just reluctant to use them unless the game is pretty much won, as they've been on the bench a while now and we're yet to see them appear (apart from Wigan when we were 3 up).
 
TangerinePeel said:
You notice Premier League youngsters from the pinnacle of youth team football at the age of 21/22 struggle in their first handful of fixtures in senior football.

Bringing on 18 year old Brad Holmes in the most pressurised period of the season for either Yates (your top scorer) or Simms when its 0 - 0 at home is misguided IMO.
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Paul Stewart and Trev did not do too badly at a younger age
 
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tangysider said:
Paul Stewart and Trev did not do too badly at a younger age
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I'm not saying young players can't do well TS, but there is a time and a place you test your youth players. Both of those players were blooded at early stages in their debut seasons, not in one of your final games during a play-off chase.

Maybe that then is room for a wider argument, should these players after doing so well in the youth team have been blooded earlier. But talking specifically about last night I disagree that a youth player should have been brought on - it's a game of opinions though!
 
SeasideKurt said:
He looked as likely as scoring as Maxwell, just because you're one of the best players in the division doesn't mean you're not tired. He's been over used. He wasn't scoring tonight and wouldn't have if he came back tomorrow. Take Simms off instead then in this scenario, but doing absolutely fuck all is just massively strange.
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Always a chance of a pen though.
 
SeasideKurt said:
Currently, the door is absolutely and 100% closed. The more I think about it, the more ridiculous the argument was last night.

I saw an 18 year old lad get game time for Bath Rugby the other week, academy prospect. The size and physical nature of football is a load of bullshit. The way Accrington players threw themselves to the ground at numerous points last night proves that. For me it points to playing it safe and hoping for the same result when it was clear as day to everyone that Jerry wasn't doing anything nor getting enough of the ball. Same for Simms.

There are no draw backs to giving a young hungry lad who wouldn't have respected anything about the Accrington players a little run around. They are the moments where you find your Charlie Austin, your Billy Sharps.

Giving a young striker and hungry academy prospect 15 minutes would have sent better signals, than keeping him on the bench when your strikers have done absolutely fuck all but fluff their lines. Last night and Burton, were very poor messages to send to our youth set up.
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That's a good case put forward but the door isn't completely closed as I think Critchley wouldn't name a full quota of subs unless he had seven seniors available if it was.

Places on the bench looks to be the best NC can offer to the academy at the moment. Whilst he's light on numbers and isn't allowed to use Lubala in the 18.

He's watches the YT and is involving the better players in first team training, but maybe recognises they're some way off being able to do what he'd expects of them in a game in the current situation. Unless he's in a position where he knows he can balance both risk and reward.

If we're to trust Critchley's background as a development coach then there's obviously nobody who stands out to him as being ready to blur the lines yet and give us real options at this time of the season. He might well spring a surprise at some point, but I'd say there isn't that culture established at this club yet.

It looked like a youth team was drafted in last summer with all those academy signings made from around the country so I'd say we're some way off on player development even locally, when you look at the likes of James Hill for the cods the other week, who had already played against us at centre half when he was 17.
 
Last night wasn't the time to blood youth that should happened in the crap Cup comps at the start of the season not the business end.

It didn't happen because we'd brought in too may similar for NC preferred formation(Jury's out on if Kemp, Sarcik or Woodburn could play 4-3-3) and they all needed game time so young forwards didn't get a look in.

We've changed system got rid of some and it really has left us short but that was our bad transfer policy as the start going into the season without centre half's, Strikers more midfielders and we still haven't got a left winger!
 
Meanwhile, scoring against ex villa centre back Tommy Elphick.

I hope they know what they are doing allowing a youth team player to be playing against a 34 year old man....?!
 
SeasideKurt said:
Meanwhile, scoring against ex villa centre back Tommy Elphick.

I hope they know what they are doing allowing a youth team player to be playing against a 34 year old man....?!
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I don't always agree with you but on this subject you are preaching to the converted.
Just to add to your point both goals were created by Apter.
Now just remind me again what we are missing? 😉
 
Can I bring this thread up and ask what the fk was the point in giving Holmes 3 minutes when losing 1-0? Another night where we've not looked anything like scoring.

Glad he got on the pitch. Looks a unit and not a little boy that some make him out to be. Should have been given longer to have a go. Yates and Simms weren't scoring.
 
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