'Taking the Knee'

But it is such a simple question.
Is calling Africans Picanninnies racist? Yes or No?
I imagine you and many others will choose to ignore the question
 
catinstalbans said:
But it is such a simple question.
Is calling Africans Picanninnies racist? Yes or No?
I imagine you and many others will choose to ignore the question
Click to expand...

No. It's just a misspelling of picaninnies.


but just in case you are interested, Picaninny is a word applied by people of the West Indies to their babies and more widely referring to small children, as in Melanesian Pidgin. It is a word derived from the Portuguese pequenino, which means very small.
 
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Tangojoe said:
No. It's just a misspelling of picaninnies.


but just in case you are interested, Picaninny is a word applied by people of the West Indies to their babies and more widely referring to small children, as in Melanesian Pidgin. It is a word derived from the Portuguese pequenino, which means very small.
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It's also a widely recognised as a derogatory racial slur, with it's origins in caricature style depictions of Black People.... So when Boris used the term alongside Watermelon smiles, do we think he was using it in the context of a racial slur or (given his fairly obvious cultural associations with the West Indies) was he simply drawing on his West Indian origins and upbringing?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It's also a widely recognised as a derogatory racial slur, with it's origins in caricature style depictions of Black People.... So when Boris used the term alongside Watermelon smiles, do we think he was using it in the context of a racial slur or (given his fairly obvious cultural associations with the West Indies) was he simply drawing on his West Indian origins and upbringing?
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Think you are wasting your time BFC x3. Some people will justify anything.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It's also a widely recognised as a derogatory racial slur, with it's origins in caricature style depictions of Black People.... So when Boris used the term alongside Watermelon smiles, do we think he was using it in the context of a racial slur or (given his fairly obvious cultural associations with the West Indies) was he simply drawing on his West Indian origins and upbringing?
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He always says it was taken out of context but never explains what the context was although it's hard to think there is any context it would be ok coming from a white upper class male. Or indeed any one in this day and age
 
Tangojoe said:
No. It's just a misspelling of picaninnies.


but just in case you are interested, Picaninny is a word applied by people of the West Indies to their babies and more widely referring to small children, as in Melanesian Pidgin. It is a word derived from the Portuguese pequenino, which means very small.
Click to expand...
So you are defending racism by the Prime Minister.
 
Nah never said racism goes on in most pubs or anything like. Maybe it's just the pubs you go in. Maybe it's your sub-conscious that draws you to these pubs. Your own racist tendencies perhaps?
 
20togo said:
Nah never said racism goes on in most pubs or anything like. Maybe it's just the pubs you go in. Maybe it's your sub-conscious that draws you to these pubs. Your own racist tendencies perhaps?
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That's a bit below the belt 20, play nice.
 
20togo said:
Im not saying it's acceptable because it most certainly is not but as you said yourself you've seen it happen in pubs. So if you've seen it happen did you stand up to it or not? Did you confront it or not? If not does that make you a racist? It would seem so on your earlier words.
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20’s what chance is there of changing the views of the lads you drink with who make racist comments regarding football or any other topic while you are having a pint in the Boars or Saddle?

If people you know are making racist comments on Facebook which is a public forum then there is not much chance of re-education for the over 60’s that you drink with (or any other age group) in Blackpool is there.
 
There are many ways that people can show they are opposed to racism. The best way, in my mind, is to treat people equally and with respect. I just wondered why 'taking the knee' was selected? Does it have any particular connotations with racist actions? People also go down on a knee to propose or to pray or show respect.
 
From my post on another thread...

Some of this taking the knee misunderstanding is becoming laughable.

People say yeah but they're doing it for different reasons to why blm do it, but they do it to the same symbol and the slogan as their name, its messy.

The problem is if I start doing a symbol at the same time as a far right group lets say for eg, but for different reasons, people will always associate it with them despite me doing it for good reasons in my head.

The whole BLM thing has been ridiculous here given it was an American problem, a criminal who was wrongly and unnecessarily killed, no indication it was for race I've seen, just like a black cop killing a white guy isn't necessarily, it was over aggressive policing and they guy will be rightly punished. Doesnt mean there isn't problems over there but its vastly worse in USA.

It then spread over here depite the police proving with facts at the time there is no police brutality or bias to certain groups over here and they are just responding to the crimes committed, of course no one wanted to listen.

Allowed to rip down statues of people who obviously don't hold up to todays values is ridiculous, its called history and you learn from it, want something changing go the proper route.

So for taking the knee , If it was me I'd change the gesture.

For everyone saying anyone who bood is a racist, which is complete bollox, if they changed the gesture to crossing arms whilst stood in a circle or something so its nothing to do with blm and the slogan to 'End racism in all forms' or something and people accepted it would they accept they called it wrong?

Point is you cant take something that started with the political Marxist BLM, start doing it and do it for you own reasons which is the same slogan as the political BLM and get upset when people won't forget thats its come about because of the political BLM.

To people of BLM watching people take the knee its basically showing support for them I'd imagine, as they are doing their symbol. Empowering what is a group with some dodgy aims like defunding the police, why would anyone want that unless they want to be able to commit crimes with impunity?

The police in this country are too soft and step on eggshells, but compared to other police do generally a great job in increasingly difficult circumstances. Only a loony group would want to defund them, we need more of them.

So would people on here have the same understanding of people doing a gesture that matched a right wing group for eg, but they are doing it for a message thats for good but happens to be the same. I bet they wouldn't, it would always be associated with that other group of the same name, therefore double standards.
 
I do think there's probably a distinct difference between a salute that is asociated with the genocide of millions of innocents (Nazi salute associated with the Far Right) and a symbol that is pretty much universally accepted as a challenge to Black Oppression. This whole 'political aims' malarkey is a bit of a red herring or stick to try and beat people with TBH.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I do think there's probably a distinct difference between a salute that is asociated with the genocide of millions of innocents (Nazi salute associated with the Far Right) and a symbol that is pretty much universally accepted as a challenge to Black Oppression. This whole 'political aims' malarkey is a bit of a red herring or stick to try and beat people with TBH.
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I presume your replying to me.

The nazi salute is going to the extreme.

There isn't the perfect opposite example to give but ill try...

If there was a WLM group set up because of white working class kids seemingly getting a raw deal and being the worst group in schools.

Turns out some in the group have some questionable aims that are promoting white people so much its seen as a racist movement for eg.

People may be genuinely supporting white working class kids getting a fair crack at getting an education but for some once the group has been identified as a potential racist group, anyone doing its gesture will always been seen in that light, rightly or wrongly. We know most people aren't doing it in favour of the WLM lunatics, but they are empowered by people doing their gesture and saying WLM which is their name for eg. Its messy.

Prob not the best example but you get the picture.

My question is knowing how divisive this has been, but what unity they would get by completely disassociating themselves from BLM and doing something of their own, why not do it?

If the message is so important as it is, why taint it with the links to the group of the same name and gesture and lessen its impact?

Do something new, get everyone on board and then you'll see the real racists who disagree with it.

But rather than do that we keep plodding on with something that's causing more division and taking talk away from the message.
 
JJpool said:
From my post on another thread...

Some of this taking the knee misunderstanding is becoming laughable.

People say yeah but they're doing it for different reasons to why blm do it, but they do it to the same symbol and the slogan as their name, its messy.

The problem is if I start doing a symbol at the same time as a far right group lets say for eg, but for different reasons, people will always associate it with them despite me doing it for good reasons in my head.

The whole BLM thing has been ridiculous here given it was an American problem, a criminal who was wrongly and unnecessarily killed, no indication it was for race I've seen, just like a black cop killing a white guy isn't necessarily, it was over aggressive policing and they guy will be rightly punished. Doesnt mean there isn't problems over there but its vastly worse in USA.

It then spread over here depite the police proving with facts at the time there is no police brutality or bias to certain groups over here and they are just responding to the crimes committed, of course no one wanted to listen.

Allowed to rip down statues of people who obviously don't hold up to todays values is ridiculous, its called history and you learn from it, want something changing go the proper route.

So for taking the knee , If it was me I'd change the gesture.

For everyone saying anyone who bood is a racist, which is complete bollox, if they changed the gesture to crossing arms whilst stood in a circle or something so its nothing to do with blm and the slogan to 'End racism in all forms' or something and people accepted it would they accept they called it wrong?

Point is you cant take something that started with the political Marxist BLM, start doing it and do it for you own reasons which is the same slogan as the political BLM and get upset when people won't forget thats its come about because of the political BLM.

To people of BLM watching people take the knee its basically showing support for them I'd imagine, as they are doing their symbol. Empowering what is a group with some dodgy aims like defunding the police, why would anyone want that unless they want to be able to commit crimes with impunity?

The police in this country are too soft and step on eggshells, but compared to other police do generally a great job in increasingly difficult circumstances. Only a loony group would want to defund them, we need more of them.

So would people on here have the same understanding of people doing a gesture that matched a right wing group for eg, but they are doing it for a message thats for good but happens to be the same. I bet they wouldn't, it would always be associated with that other group of the same name, therefore double standards.
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Except most of what you say is absolute rubbish.
Taking the knee has a far longer history than your lies suggest
Was Martin Luther King Jr a Marxist or a heroic campaigner for civil rights.
globalnews.ca

Martin Luther King Jr. took a knee in 1965. Here’s a history of the powerful pose. - National | Globalnews.ca

A powerful photo of the civil rights leader has reemerged amidst the NFL #TakeAKnee controversy.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca

We could compare the gesture with the England Flag. Used by far right extremists to this day- look at Twitter where virtually every racist poster will have an England Flag in their strapping. Yet no one sees an England Flag flying from a church or a public building and thinks "Hey that parish church is supporting racism."
Gareth Southgate eloquently explained why taking the knee was an appropriate gesture, yet every racist poster on here and our racist Prime Minister chose to ignore his words.
 
JJpool said:
I presume your replying to me.

The nazi salute is going to the extreme.

There isn't the perfect opposite example to give but ill try...

If there was a WLM group set up because of white working class kids seemingly getting a raw deal and being the worst group in schools.

Turns out some in the group have some questionable aims that are promoting white people so much its seen as a racist movement for eg.

People may be genuinely supporting white working class kids getting a fair crack at getting an education but for some once the group has been identified as a potential racist group, anyone doing its gesture will always been seen in that light, rightly or wrongly. We know most people aren't doing it in favour of the WLM lunatics, but they are empowered by people doing their gesture and saying WLM which is their name for eg. Its messy.

Prob not the best example but you get the picture.

My question is knowing how divisive this has been, but what unity they would get by completely disassociating themselves from BLM and doing something of their own, why not do it?

If the message is so important as it is, why taint it with the links to the group of the same name and gesture and lessen its impact?

Do something new, get everyone on board and then you'll see the real racists who disagree with it.

But rather than do that we keep plodding on with something that's causing more division and taking talk away from the message.
Click to expand...
I can't make much sense of that TBH.... I'm also not sure it's been particularly divisive either really.... Yep A few Footy Hooligans and EDL types have got their knickers in a twist because a tiny number of idiots decided to deface a couple of war memorials, but most normal people just see it for what it is... A stand against racism and oppression

I appreciate that some people might feel threatened or scared by the idea that Black People might see themselves as having a right to stand up for themselves, but perhaps those people might focus on what the status quo actually looks like from a black persons perspective...

I'll give you one small example (something I had never even considered, but picked up having watched the BBC series 'Noughts and Crosses')...Something as simple as Sticking Plasters... Plasters manufactured enmasse for White Skin tone...It's a small and incidental thing, but there are loads of similar examples... The world as we know it is 'White-Centric', whether it's kids toys, sticking plasters or even the ability of the medical profession to recognise common dermatalogical issues...

Of course you aren't going to "Get It" though... I mean why should you or why should I for that matter... From our perspective, the world fits just fine 👍
 
catinstalbans said:
Except most of what you say is absolute rubbish.
Taking the knee has a far longer history than your lies suggest
Was Martin Luther King Jr a Marxist or a heroic campaigner for civil rights.
globalnews.ca

Martin Luther King Jr. took a knee in 1965. Here’s a history of the powerful pose. - National | Globalnews.ca

A powerful photo of the civil rights leader has reemerged amidst the NFL #TakeAKnee controversy.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca

We could compare the gesture with the England Flag. Used by far right extremists to this day- look at Twitter where virtually every racist poster will have an England Flag in their strapping. Yet no one sees an England Flag flying from a church or a public building and thinks "Hey that parish church is supporting racism."
Gareth Southgate eloquently explained why taking the knee was an appropriate gesture, yet every racist poster on here and our racist Prime Minister chose to ignore his words.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter where it came from its gesture associated with BLM. If the nazi salute was done way before Its time for different reasons it makes no difference, its always going to be associated with them.

There is a messy cross use of both the gesture and name, so again, given how this is perceived and it clearly is hence this debate, surely common sense says, given how important this message is to make it an independent gesture and name, so there can be no confusion.

What will people have to disagree with then?

Call peoples bluff, say OK you claim you dont like it because of the name being the same as BLM and the same gesture...... OK...... so if we change it you will have NO issues yes? Let's see.

A flag is a bit different, its a national symbol.
 
I believe that racial hatred, however it is made manifest, is disgusting, anti-social and not to be tolerated in a civilised society.

That's all you need to say. I believe it. Now, feel free to 'like' this message if you agree with it.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I can't make much sense of that TBH.... I'm also not sure it's been particularly divisive either really.... Yep A few Footy Hooligans and EDL types have got their knickers in a twist because a tiny number of idiots decided to deface a couple of war memorials, but most normal people just see it for what it is... A stand against racism and oppression

I appreciate that some people might feel threatened or scared by the idea that Black People might see themselves as having a right to stand up for themselves, but perhaps those people might focus on what the status quo actually looks like from a black persons perspective...

I'll give you one small example (something I had never even considered, but picked up having watched the BBC series 'Noughts and Crosses')...Something as simple as Sticking Plasters... Plasters manufactured enmasse for White Skin tone...It's a small and incidental thing, but there are loads of similar examples... The world as we know it is 'White-Centric', whether it's kids toys, sticking plasters or even the ability of the medical profession to recognise common dermatalogical issues...

Of course you aren't going to "Get It" though... I mean why should you or why should I for that matter... From our perspective, the world fits just fine 👍
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Thats rubbish there was widespread booing at many different grounds once fans returned, I suppose all are edl and hooligans, if that's the case their numbers have sure shot up 🙄

Whos scared for Black people to have their say? Not me, weird statement. The country has never been fairer, generally equal opportunity for all, in some cases the BBC only hires an ethic minority or some places hire just to get their numbers up to not appear Racist. This Rooney rule for eg, giving black people an interview just because their black, a bit offensive really for them, they should be hired on merit and if they're best person for they job they get it.

Were not the USA or have the problems they do. There are still issues but mostly there's some tiny minority of idiots who sound louder via twitter. They should be dealt with.

So now plasters are racist... because they are designed and invented in lets say in the UK which is majority white, why? Because the sun isn't powerful enough here. Apart from this weekend...

I'm sure if plasters were invented in a black country they'd have been made to suit whatever colour their most used on.

That's just basic common sense. There are plasters for different colours now i believe, if it bothers people so much, wouldn't bother me with a black plaster.

I'm sure it's exactly the same if I went to majority black country, things would have been centric to majority of the people who lived there.

Things have changed and adapted to changing societies and were now very inclusive.

I'm sure there are some Black people sick of the white people on left telling them their oppressed all the time too.
 
JJpool said:
Thats rubbish there was widespread booing at many different grounds once fans returned, I suppose all are edl and hooligans, if that's the case their numbers have sure shot up 🙄

Whos scared for Black people to have their say? Not me, weird statement. The country has never been fairer, generally equal opportunity for all, in some cases the BBC only hires an ethic minority or some places hire just to get their numbers up to not appear Racist. This Rooney rule for eg, giving black people an interview just because their black, a bit offensive really for them, they should be hired on merit and if they're best person for they job they get it.

Were not the USA or have the problems they do. There are still issues but mostly there's some tiny minority of idiots who sound louder via twitter. They should be dealt with.

So now plasters are racist... because they are designed and invented in lets say in the UK which is majority white, why? Because the sun isn't powerful enough here. Apart from this weekend...

I'm sure if plasters were invented in a black country they'd have been made to suit whatever colour their most used on.

That's just basic common sense. There are plasters for different colours now i believe, if it bigger peolle so much, wouldn't bother me with a black plaster.

I'm sure it's exactly the same if I went to majority black country, things would have been centric to majority of the people who lived there.

Things have changed and adapted to changing societies and were now very inclusive.

I'm sure there are some Black people sick of the white people on left telling them their oppressed all the time too.
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BLLLLLAAAAAAH [Fingers in ears]BLLLLLAAAHHHH

‘It doesn’t affect me so it doesn’t exist and anyone who has issues is just making problems, life is fine as it is, I’ve got a black mate, some black people agree with me, it wouldn’t bother me if the world was centred around black peoples and I was treated like a second class citizen, white lives matter too, all lives matter, stop ramming this down our throats, they’re defunding the police, he was a criminal anyway’

Yeah whatever 👎
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
BLLLLLAAAAAAH [Fingers in ears]BLLLLLAAAHHHH

‘It doesn’t affect me so it doesn’t exist and anyone who has issues is just making problems, life is fine as it is, I’ve got a black mate, some black people agree with me, it wouldn’t bother me if the world was centred around black peoples and I was treated like a second class citizen, white lives matter too, all lives matter, stop ramming this down our throats, they’re defunding the police, he was a criminal anyway’

Yeah whatever 👎
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When you have to come up with a pathetic strawman argument you know you have lost the argument.

I'm not saying there aren't some issues but we can't change everything from the past just because it doesn't t fit every type of background.

How about we recognise many Black people saying its actually one of the fairest societies in the UK, yes some underlying issues that need resolving but lets appreciate the strides taken forwards as well, rather than make out were still in the stoneage and everything around us is somehow racist.

Who is treated like a second class citizen? Are you Black and speaking from experience or speaking on their behalf? Give me a solid example of something a person cant do in the UK today because of their colour.

Just because there's tiny reminders of the past around doesn't mean people are second class citizens.
 
JJpool said:
When you have to come up with a pathetic strawman argument you know you have lost the argument.

I'm not saying there aren't some issues but we can't change everything from the past just because it doesn't t fit every type of background.

How about we recognise many Black people saying its actually one of the fairest societies in the UK, yes some underlying issues that need resolving but lets appreciate the strides taken forwards as well, rather than make out were still in the stoneage and everything around us is somehow racist.

Who is treated like a second class citizen? Are you Black and speaking from experience or speaking on their behalf? Give me a solid example of something a person cant do in the UK today because of their colour.

Just because there's tiny reminders of the past around doesn't mean people are second class citizens.
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Not that your whole argument is based on a “pathetic strawman” or anything 😂
 
JJpool said:
Doesn't matter where it came from its gesture associated with BLM. If the nazi salute was done way before Its time for different reasons it makes no difference, its always going to be associated with them.

There is a messy cross use of both the gesture and name, so again, given how this is perceived and it clearly is hence this debate, surely common sense says, given how important this message is to make it an independent gesture and name, so there can be no confusion.

What will people have to disagree with then?

Call peoples bluff, say OK you claim you dont like it because of the name being the same as BLM and the same gesture...... OK...... so if we change it you will have NO issues yes? Let's see.

A flag is a bit different, its a national symbol.
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You're spittin' in the wind JJ, there are those people who want to see racism everywhere and assuming he is not just trying to wind people up ( I think the point about sticking plasters indicates that he is), BFC is one of those people. If I was to walk into Bloomfield with an exposed historical stylised swastika on my arm, say Hindu, what would that be identified with despite the true meaning? No doubt I would be accused of being a far-right racist.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Not that your whole argument is based on a “pathetic strawman” or anything 😂
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No its based on being exactly the same gesture and name as BLM, you can see why some will never like that gesture now.

I wouldn't boo our players as probably not helpful to them pre game to have to think in the background of their minds... why are people booing before a game and there could be many reasons. I appreciate their stand but think the gesture and name should be changed, so we stop talking about the loony namesake BLM for one.

Would you agree anyone who wants to get rid of police is a loony? Society would be chaos.

They use the US as if it applies here and the Police is the same, therefore get rid of the police.

I see you didn't give the example.

One easy one is play football, now of course Black people can play football and be successful, but as seen they can't play at times without receiving unfair abuse based on colour.

That needs stamping out or one might say 'kick it out'..
 
EagleDay said:
You're spittin' in the wind JJ, there are those people who want to see racism everywhere and assuming he is not just trying to wind people up ( I think the point about sticking plasters indicates that he is), BFC is one of those people. If I was to walk into Bloomfield with an exposed historical stylised swastika on my arm, say Hindu, what would that be identified with despite the true meaning? No doubt I would be accused of being a far-right racist.
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He’s not spitting in the wind… He’s just expressing the same regurgitated rhetoric that we’ve all heard 1000 times over.

Ultimately it boils down to a lack of empathy and understanding. You can either choose to challenge and educate yourself with an open mind or you can feel threatened and defensive and remain in your cave.

It’s interesting that we have the matter of women taking their husbands name in marriage on another thread…. Ask yourself as a man (based on your own conditioning) how you would honestly feel if tomorrow you were told that you must take your wife’s surname….. I can honestly say I’d be up in arms about it (rightly or wrongly)… and that’s what social conditioning does to people….

Those barriers and established norms must be broken down… Yes, the U.K. is a fantastic and tolerant multicultural country, but we still face challenges that must be addressed.
 
EagleDay said:
You're spittin' in the wind JJ, there are those people who want to see racism everywhere and assuming he is not just trying to wind people up ( I think the point about sticking plasters indicates that he is), BFC is one of those people. If I was to walk into Bloomfield with an exposed historical stylised swastika on my arm, say Hindu, what would that be identified with despite the true meaning? No doubt I would be accused of being a far-right racist.
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Yeah I'd give that one a miss......

Also never itch your nose and point at the same time, you'll be swarmed on like goal celebration pile on. Its a no no.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
He’s not spitting in the wind… He’s just expressing the same regurgitated rhetoric that we’ve all heard 1000 times over.

Ultimately it boils down to a lack of empathy and understanding. You can either choose to challenge and educate yourself with an open mind or you can feel threatened and defensive and remain in your cave.

It’s interesting that we have the matter of women taking their husbands name in marriage on another thread…. Ask yourself as a man (based on your own conditioning) how you would honestly feel if tomorrow you were told that you must take your wife’s surname….. I can honestly say I’d be up in arms about it (rightly or wrongly)… and that’s what social conditioning does to people….

Those barriers and established norms must be broken down… Yes, the U.K. is a fantastic and tolerant multicultural country, but we still face challenges that must be addressed.
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No its a completely fair point and your still to answer why, knowing how divisive it had been, they don't change the name and gesture to maximise its affect and get everyone on board.

I'm not unsympathetic, I can imagine if your looking there's suble reminders all around of an unequal past. However I'd also have to remember if I was first generation for eg, how much better I have it then my parents, how far we've come. Your never going to get a country set up for minorities that was set up for its indigenous population many years ago. Little things change over time, but the big things that really matter.... like jobs, opportunities, equal pay etc, are as fair as ever. In fact women get less than men, I don't know any case of minorities getting less than white. So where really is the bias there?

Why would you be offended at that, you can choose to take both names, always a good way to honour both people if you have respect that both want to keep their name.

Your last line is no different to what I've said myself.
 
JJpool said:
When you have to come up with a pathetic strawman argument you know you have lost the argument.

I'm not saying there aren't some issues but we can't change everything from the past just because it doesn't t fit every type of background.

How about we recognise many Black people saying its actually one of the fairest societies in the UK, yes some underlying issues that need resolving but lets appreciate the strides taken forwards as well, rather than make out were still in the stoneage and everything around us is somehow racist.

Who is treated like a second class citizen? Are you Black and speaking from experience or speaking on their behalf? Give me a solid example of something a person cant do in the UK today because of their colour.

Just because there's tiny reminders of the past around doesn't mean people are second class citizens.
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www.walesonline.co.uk

Group of black cyclists turned away from pub before white men allowed in

Cyclists claim they were turned away because of their 'characteristics'
www.walesonline.co.uk www.walesonline.co.uk
www.bbc.com

Apology to black barrister mistaken for defendant - BBC News

Alexandra Wilson says she was challenged by court staff who assumed she was there to face charges.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Black British Or Black In Britain? It Depends If We're Winning

Watching England in the Euros was a painful reminder that Black people still have to perform for acceptance.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk www.huffingtonpost.co.uk
 
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JJpool said:
No its a completely fair point and your still to answer why, knowing how divisive it had been, they don't change the name and gesture to maximise its affect and get everyone on board.

I'm not unsympathetic, I can imagine if your looking there's suble reminders all around of an unequal past. However I'd also have to remember if I was first generation for eg, how much better I have it then my parents, how far we've come. Your never going to get a country set up for minorities that was set up for its indigenous population many years ago. Little things change over time, but the big things that really matter.... like jobs, opportunities, equal pay etc, are as fair as ever. In fact women get less than men, I don't know any case of minorities getting less than white. So where really is the bias there?

Why would you be offended at that, you can choose to take both names, always a good way to honour both people if you have respect that both want to keep their name.

Your last line is no different to what I've said myself.
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So why don’t they comply with the wishes of people who largely oppose the movement and change what has become a hugely effective slogan as well as an influential factor in driving positive social change?

Why should they? Why should a movement built on striving for an end to white supremacy bow to the will of white supremists?

Look so long as you are just going to dismiss social issues because you aren’t affected then you aren’t going to be able to move on in your own personal journey…. People have a right to stand up, engage in associations or collective movements and protest / demonstrate etc… It’s a protected right under article 10 and 11 of the human rights act…

I didn’t say I’d be “offended” by an instruction to take my wife’s name, I said I’d be up in arms about it.

Loom I don’t want to argue all day…At the end of the day (to my mind) these matters are as much about wrestling with your own self as much as anything else…They are tough and challenging concepts, especially for White Males… The world is evolving fast and social norms are being torn down….

To my mind, you can either embrace the situation and focus on undoing the brainwashed / indoctrinated individual that exists inside your head or you can continue to fight on what is essentially the morally indefensible side of this argument…
 
Tangojoe said:
Just as I predicted. 250 more posts on this boring, pointless subject and nothing has changed. Same accusations from the same posters. Glad I abstained from commenting.
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We're all pleased for you that you abstained from commenting by commenting.
 
So anyway, it's a long old thread, so in summary...

Racism bad. Yes?

Showing support for anti racism good. Yes?

Trying to argue against, as a white person who probably has never received any racial abuse, the particular form of demonstration chosen by those actually receiving racial abuse makes you look like, at the very least, a complete **. Yes?

Sorted.
 
"He’s just expressing the same regurgitated rhetoric that we’ve all heard 1000 times over." Aren't you and the rest of the knee supporters just as guilty of the same thing? The truth is it is time a way was devised that cannot be attributed with any other group and everybody can get behind. Constant name-calling and accusations get nobody anywhere and only widens the divide.
 
EagleDay said:
"He’s just expressing the same regurgitated rhetoric that we’ve all heard 1000 times over." Aren't you and the rest of the knee supporters just as guilty of the same thing? The truth is it is time a way was devised that cannot be attributed with any other group and everybody can get behind. Constant name-calling and accusations get nobody anywhere and only widens the divide.
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The Truth is… That you are focused on all the wrong things at the expense of all the right things. It is that propensity for ‘distraction’, that willingness to dig for the slightest reason to oppose, whilst ignoring the overwhelming reason to support that will always remain an issue.

As I said in the other post, the biggest fight or challenge that you guys face is with yourselves. I think you need to ask yourself are you up for that challenge or will you continue to take the easy option.
 
EagleDay said:
"He’s just expressing the same regurgitated rhetoric that we’ve all heard 1000 times over." Aren't you and the rest of the knee supporters just as guilty of the same thing? The truth is it is time a way was devised that cannot be attributed with any other group and everybody can get behind. Constant name-calling and accusations get nobody anywhere and only widens the divide.
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So as, presumably, a white man with little first hand experience of racial abuse, why do you think you have a better understanding of what constitutes an effective statement than the black players receiving racial abuse?

It's quite fascinating how white people feel they still have any authority in this debate.
 
JJpool said:
I presume your replying to me.

The nazi salute is going to the extreme.

There isn't the perfect opposite example to give but ill try...

If there was a WLM group set up because of white working class kids seemingly getting a raw deal and being the worst group in schools.

Turns out some in the group have some questionable aims that are promoting white people so much its seen as a racist movement for eg.

People may be genuinely supporting white working class kids getting a fair crack at getting an education but for some once the group has been identified as a potential racist group, anyone doing its gesture will always been seen in that light, rightly or wrongly. We know most people aren't doing it in favour of the WLM lunatics, but they are empowered by people doing their gesture and saying WLM which is their name for eg. Its messy.

Prob not the best example but you get the picture.

My question is knowing how divisive this has been, but what unity they would get by completely disassociating themselves from BLM and doing something of their own, why not do it?

If the message is so important as it is, why taint it with the links to the group of the same name and gesture and lessen its impact?

Do something new, get everyone on board and then you'll see the real racists who disagree with it.

But rather than do that we keep plodding on with something that's causing more division and taking talk away from the message.
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The “real racists” are disagreeing with an action that takes 2 seconds though aren’t they!

It’s a 2 second action response to racism in general society, it’s not political at all.

The racists are using “politics” as an excuse or reason that the players should not carry out this 2 second action 🙄
 
Seasider3610 said:
20’s what chance is there of changing the views of the lads you drink with who make racist comments regarding football or any other topic while you are having a pint in the Boars or Saddle?

If people you know are making racist comments on Facebook which is a public forum then there is not much chance of re-education for the over 60’s that you drink with (or any other age group) in Blackpool is there.
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That's an easy one to answer. I don't do Facebook and I've not had a drink in the Saddle or Boars Head for a good few years now so I really don't know what lads you are talking about.
In the meantime Bifster continues to be his usual condescending self, FY8 knows he's a ** and Cat continues to spout his own messagss of hate. So clearly all is well and nothing changes in AVFTT world.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So anyway, it's a long old thread, so in summary...

Racism bad. Yes?

Showing support for anti racism good. Yes?

Trying to argue against, as a white person who probably has never received any racial abuse, the particular form of demonstration chosen by those actually receiving racial abuse makes you look like, at the very least, a complete **. Yes?

Sorted.
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Racism bad? tick

Showing support for anti-racism good? tick

Spilling tears for young black athletes earning £300k a week and worrying about whether their Lamborghini is better than their team mate's or spilling tears over the fact that the planet is disintegrating, North America is burning up and thousands are drowning because Central Europe is under water?

Hmmm tough that last one.
 
Tangojoe said:
Racism bad? tick

Showing support for anti-racism good? tick

Spilling tears for young black athletes earning £300k a week and worrying about whether their Lamborghini is better than their team mate's or spilling tears over the fact that the planet is disintegrating, North America is burning up and thousands are drowning because Central Europe is under water?

Hmmm tough that last one.
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Why does the money they earn make any difference? It's ok to get abuse because you're earning a good wage?

Seems like an excuse.
 
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