How Not to Run a Football Club - Official Discussion Thread

BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In many ways this thread is somewhat of an example. People would tend to prefer to believe a manufactured, but convenient story, than face up to an inconvenient truth.

OOā€™s protestations of a stitch up weā€™re probably good enough for a lot of fans to latch on to. (Iā€™ll certainly admit to going along with it).

That said, Iā€™m not sure the whole return of the ā€˜rapeā€™ thing was entirely hypocritical. In many ways it came about (rightly or wrongly) as an association with the rape of the clubā€¦

I also think that times have probably changed, that people had subsequently had their eyes opened to Owenā€™s character as well as changing attitudes towards that type of crime.
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You said yourself in another thread, fans were chanting 'Owen shagged your wife' or something like that in the 90s, can't remember the exact words you used. For such a collective outrage to exist 20 years later, feels hypocritical to me. And I dont think it's a good thing to associate the real 16 year old victim or a rape - who for a long time was ignored and not believed - with the 'metaphorical' act against the club.

People loved singing about it with great joy, they shouted it over and over again. They only did so because they didnt like him for other reasons. It wasnt because they were actually so disgusted by the act. If it was, they would have been doing it 20 years ago and ever since.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Biff

"indicate the ..... existence (of something) by suggestion rather than by explicit reference"

So posting along the lines of "I think A is made up, therefore I wonder what else is" doesn't qualify, does it?

I apologise for "loan voice" (sic). But you acted all offended when I lumped you in with Phil. There's a lot of thin skin about today, isn't there?

I'm bowing out now, as we are going round in circles and it isn't doing either of you any favours.
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I didnā€™t say I think itā€™s made up did I?

Iā€™m pretty sure I would have stated that it was made up. Feel free to show me the quote if Iā€™ve mis-typed.

I wasnā€™t offended when you lumped me in with Phil, I just didnā€™t want my opinions to be confused with his. Itā€™s hard enough, when people continually misquote what you do say, without being held accountable for other peoples opinions.

In fairness, I think youā€™ve come into this discussion all guns blazing, realised your comments were largely unjustified and then kept on digging.

If you want to get off thatā€™s fineā€¦.. it saves a bit of face, if nothing else šŸ˜‚
 
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Towerpower99 said:
Jack Douglas to play Karlā€¦spitting image of him šŸ˜€
Picture of Pig Farmer Karl in his Office below..
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Mark Benton is a did ringer for Karl.
He was the hapless Bank Manager on the Nationwide advertsā€ First time customers onlyā€.
Now appearing inShakesphere and Hathaway on BBC 1 on Weekday afternoons.
 
foggy said:
You said yourself in another thread, fans were chanting 'Owen shagged your wife' or something like that in the 90s, can't remember the exact words you used. For such a collective outrage to exist 20 years later, feels hypocritical to me. And I dont think it's a good thing to associate the real 16 year old victim or a rape - who for a long time was ignored and not believed - with the 'metaphorical' act against the club.

People loved singing about it with great joy, they shouted it over and over again. They only did so because they didnt like him for other reasons. It wasnt because they were actually so disgusted by the act. If it was, they would have been doing it 20 years ago and ever since.
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Remember Preston away when their fans were singing ā€œHeā€™s sewing bagsā€ and we were singing ā€œHeā€™s shagged your wife ā€œ šŸ˜³šŸ˜‚
By the way, great to see youā€™re well Steed šŸ˜€šŸ˜€šŸŗ
 
foggy said:
You said yourself in another thread, fans were chanting 'Owen shagged your wife' or something like that in the 90s, can't remember the exact words you used. For such a collective outrage to exist 20 years later, feels hypocritical to me. And I dont think it's a good thing to associate the real 16 year old victim or a rape - who for a long time was ignored and not believed - with the 'metaphorical' act against the club.

People loved singing about it with great joy, they shouted it over and over again. They only did so because they didnt like him for other reasons. It wasnt because they were actually so disgusted by the act. If it was, they would have been doing it 20 years ago and ever since.
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Yesā€¦ That was a pretty regular chant in the late 90ā€™s. Itā€™s important to remember though that was a couple of decades before the protest. The demographic of our fanbase has changed a lot since then. Boys have become Men and Men have become Old Menā€¦ Plenty wouldnā€™t have even been around back then at all.

You make a very valid point about the association of the victim. Though Iā€™m not sure that many of our fans would have looked at it that deeply really.

Itā€™s also important to remember that Owen Oyston had largely been out of the picture (barring a few Cameo appearances) up until becoming a bit more active following the Wembley win.

There were also plenty of fans who were always very uncomfortable with Owen and his ā€˜waysā€™.

I canā€™t speak for how others felt, but despite how I felt as a youngster, as a grown man, Iā€™d certainly reflected on the situation and my distaste for Owen was very much to do with his extra curricular behaviour.

It was certainly a convenient stick to beat him with and (being totally honest) probably one that many would have conveniently ignored, had the success continuedā€¦. So yepā€¦ I suppose itā€™s hard not to accept hypocrisy was involved šŸ‘
 
Not halfway through but what a brilliant book.
Up to Premiership season.
Nothing Mentioned of the Charlie Austin saga where we could have signed him for 650K.
Karl wouldnā€™t pay him an extra Ā£500 quid a week and went to Burnley. Sold for 6.5 million the following season.
Otherwise bags of new information for me.

Reading more on my Ryan Air flight tomorrow.
 
GrahamwantshisOates said:
Not halfway through but what a brilliant book.
Up to Premiership season.
Nothing Mentioned of the Charlie Austin saga where we could have signed him for 650K.
Karl wouldnā€™t pay him an extra Ā£500 quid a week and went to Burnley. Sold for 6.5 million the following season.
Otherwise bags of new information for me.

Reading more on my Ryan Air flight tomorrow.
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I would have had about 1,000 words left for the rest of the book if I went into every missed signing! Vardy too of course.

I did make a document at one point in time listing all the players that reportedly turned us down, lost to time itself now though.

Glad you're enjoying the book. Safe travels.
 
foggy said:
Yes, and the description of events comes from court records too. A very odd post indeed, and very crass. I did point out in the book, I remember when everyone all of a sudden thought Owen's rape conviction was the absolute most heinous, worst thing in the world, which I said was partly the Streisand Effect but also a bit hypocritical, because I never remembered anyone talking about it before really. It seems like now he's gone, it's a bit of a laugh again to some.
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Way back then I don't recall the detail being widely known
That's not to say it wasn't but of course there was no internet back then
All you had were the reports in the papers that you bought and the evening news if you caught it
As a ' young un ' yourself it's difficult to explain but it really was a very different world
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In many ways this thread is somewhat of an example. People would tend to prefer to believe a manufactured, but convenient story, than face up to an inconvenient truth.

OOā€™s protestations of a stitch up weā€™re probably good enough for a lot of fans to latch on to. (Iā€™ll certainly admit to going along with it).

That said, Iā€™m not sure the whole return of the ā€˜rapeā€™ thing was entirely hypocritical. In many ways it came about (rightly or wrongly) as an association with the rape of the clubā€¦

I also think that times have probably changed, that people had subsequently had their eyes opened to Owenā€™s character as well as changing attitudes towards that type of crime.
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It's interesting that Owen being stitched up in the rape case gets a mention because you reminded a few days ago that I was one of those that believed "him". How you remember those things is beyond me. (@20togo is another that has great recall for all things posted).
Having worked most of my life in the vicinity of the Manchester Courts and gone to the gym in that area you do hear stories, some that are shared and some that you over hear. I do know someone he was in the Court when Owen was convicted. I'm going to cross examine him next time I see him. It is of course all irrelevant now. I know a few people who say Owen is "charming". It doesn't change my opinion of him. I met Karl twice. You obviously know about one of those meetings and the other time it was just me Karl & Matt. He was not unpleasant but was just humouring me of course. Neither of those occasions make me think he's anything other than a tw@t.
 
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TheSteed said:
Not really one for forums nowadays, but thought I'd log in here to say congratulations Nathan, and thank you, not only for immortalising what we all went through in the book but also, once again, for all the help back then as well.

Also, thanks again to everyone else for the help and support, with obvious special mentions to Tim, Mosser, Christine, Jez, Andy Grice, The Knights, BST, Raggy & Afro and the old Back Henry Street lot, plus many more that got me through it.

I think it was worth it all in the end.

Hope all of you are well.

Paul C
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Good to hear from you Paul

Hope you are well

As an aside Nathan's piece on your angst took me back to the way I was feeling when I was under threat - very unpleasant

Thought the narrative described it well
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
The book is ** ace and literally no one cares about the intricate details of who did what to who that time.

Lytham score -10/10
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In fairness, if you genuinely donā€™t care about the details, then whatā€™s the point in reading the book? Surely weā€™ve all already got a pretty rough idea about what went onā€¦.in general terms.

Itā€™s some of the details (like for example stuff about KO getting pissed and acting like a dick at different football events / stadia, or mor in depth info about VBā€™s murky finances) that actually make the book worth reading isnā€™t it?

The effort to research and uncover and provide better insight into the ā€˜intricate detailsā€™ was the best bit about the book for me. I think itā€™s a real shame you didnā€™t manage to fully appreciate Foggys efforts.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
The book is ** ace and literally no one cares about the intricate details of who did what to who that time.

Lytham score -10/10

Only Doolittle, OK Computer and Swedish Cougars Vol 14 have ever achieved that score before, rarified company.
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Did you enjoy the Paul Ince bits like I promised you would?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In fairness, if you genuinely donā€™t care about the details, then whatā€™s the point in reading the book? Surely weā€™ve all already got a pretty rough idea about what went onā€¦.in general terms.

Itā€™s some of the details (like for example stuff about KO getting pissed and acting like a dick at different football events / stadia, or mor in depth info about VBā€™s murky finances) that actually make the book worth reading isnā€™t it?

The effort to research and uncover and provide better insight into the ā€˜intricate detailsā€™ was the best bit about the book for me. I think itā€™s a real shame you didnā€™t manage to fully appreciate Foggys efforts.
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No, you misread, the 'intricate' details.

As argued on this thread, the details are correct, it's the time someone had a piss after their kebab before a protest I don't care about.

I suggest someone writes a book with their own truths if they disagree with this one, posting on here achieves fuck all except an argument really.
 
Iā€™ve just had an email to say my copy will arrive tomorrow. Iā€™m sure any inaccuracies will not spoil my enjoyment of the book.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
No, you misread, the 'intricate' details.

As argued on this thread, the details are correct, it's the time someone had a piss after their kebab before a protest I don't care about.

I suggest someone writes a book with their own truths if they disagree with this one, posting on here achieves fuck all except an argument really.
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Are you trying to say you donā€™t care that Phil set off the fire alarm?

Because in my opinion that was one of the most poignant moments in the entire campaign.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Are you trying to say you donā€™t care that Phil set off the fire alarm?

Because in my opinion that was one of the most poignant moments in the entire campaign.
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Phil didnā€™t set off the fire alarm.

He watched a mate do it.

But as we all know - without that, the pitch invasion probably wouldnā€™t have happened. And the whole day wouldā€™ve been a wash out.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In fairness, if you genuinely donā€™t care about the details, then whatā€™s the point in reading the book? Surely weā€™ve all already got a pretty rough idea about what went onā€¦.in general terms.

Itā€™s some of the details (like for example stuff about KO getting pissed and acting like a dick at different football events / stadia, or mor in depth info about VBā€™s murky finances) that actually make the book worth reading isnā€™t it?

The effort to research and uncover and provide better insight into the ā€˜intricate detailsā€™ was the best bit about the book for me. I think itā€™s a real shame you didnā€™t manage to fully appreciate Foggys efforts.
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I've liked your post but I still come back to what you said in your 352nd post on this thread:

"The importance of the ā€˜detailā€™ is affected by perspective of the individual."

That was inspirational and for which I compliment you but don't forget you said it. šŸ‘
 
Foggy, I'm certainly looking forward to having a read.

When does the timeline start? I still remember my first visit to Bloomfield Road as a 13 yr old from Chipping, in 1988 (Elliott was captain, Walwyn and Cunningham up front) and immediately fell in love with the place, despite it looking like a proper shit-hole both inside and out.

Pool 2 Wigan 0, Deary scored twice. The first was a mile offside.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Here you go again being rude

I certainly didn't make anything up

The fire alarms being set off at the Hudds game were the signal for the pitch invasion thats fact and isn't from any second hand source


I didn't specifically say you credited the Knights with Derby how could they the Knights weren't even a thing then

My point was more general about the book making out that BST and Knights planned and led the majority of the protests

You have your sources i get that

I'm talking first hand as i was directly involved in both of the above incidents
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Tk's were created late 2012. The Tennis ball protest was 10 days after the derby night. Tk's had nothing to do with the Derby incident but did organise the Tennis Ball protest.
 
mad-link said:
Foggy, I'm certainly looking forward to having a read.

When does the timeline start? I still remember my first visit to Bloomfield Road as a 13 yr old from Chipping, in 1988 (Elliott was captain, Walwyn and Cunningham up front) and immediately fell in love with the place, despite it looking like a proper shit-hole both inside and out.

Pool 2 Wigan 0, Deary scored twice. The first was a mile offside.
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Unfortunately I can't say that game gets a mention mate, but the intro basically charts the brief history of the Oystons at BFC through Owen/Vicki/Karl and then the book starts up proper in the 09/10 season
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
No, you misread, the 'intricate' details.

As argued on this thread, the details are correct, it's the time someone had a piss after their kebab before a protest I don't care about.

I suggest someone writes a book with their own truths if they disagree with this one, posting on here achieves fuck all except an argument really.
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You put it more lyrically in your posts, but my thinking was basically that fans already know about the protests, we were all there for them. Not all the details obviously, but anyone is welcome to come on avftt and tell their story any time. I did include some extra stuff about tennis ball game and hudds many might not have known, but to go into detail about each protest would have taken up the whole book. It was an important part of the book of course, but was never going to be the whole book.

In my opinion, and I think the feedback supports this, it's the stories from inside the club that haven't been publicised before that make it a must read. Sam getting arrested on promotion night, Karl trying a homemade pitch warming device that froze to the pitch, or getting drunk at football league meetings and supposedly throwing sugar cubes around and embarrassing himself, or allegedly getting arrested in Riga. Paul Ince fining players for eating before him, Owen Oyston apparently buying his PA a car then watching as she left, then buying her another car and a house when she came back, before she left again. The hotel allegedly having a fire hazard underneath the guests rooms (which one poster tried to downplay as 'dust in vents' for some reason). And a few dozen other little stories I wanted to pepper throughout the book that would make a fan go '** hell, I didn't know that', and chuckle to themselves. Those were the details I was most interested in, and believe others are too.
 
Started it yesterday about 7 pm & finished it about an hour ago. Compelling reading & brought back some old memories, plus quite a few I wasn't sure if they were genuine at the time (but sounded entirely plausible) & the odd one or two new (to me)
One common theme that really kept rearing it's head was "failed to pay" with some pretty obvious & hilarious outcomes, associated with not paying. I enjoyed reading it & whilst I felt some of the anger from the past re-emerge briefly, it was something like re-watching the playoff final, in the sense we all knew the villains' were well & truly thwarted & a more than happy ending. šŸ‘ šŸ‘ šŸ‘
 
koudo said:
Tk's were created late 2012. The Tennis ball protest was 10 days after the derby night. Tk's had nothing to do with the Derby incident but did organise the Tennis Ball protest.
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Recall you and I used to speak all the time from early 2014
Had you on speed dial šŸ˜†
 
Martonmosser said:
He was one of several users of the same account I believeā€¦.. another one being that grass The Duke of Lancaster who used to post on here and originally set the Dark Lord account up šŸ˜”
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And I reckon Sam & George used it occasionally. You could just tell.
When he posted on AVFTT sat next to me at the early SISA meeting. šŸ˜‚
Plus there were the usernames before it, like HarryPotter etc. Those were mainly Karl.
 
Towerpower99 said:
One of the pics that really peed me off (other than the cash cow pic) at the time was Sammy Brownpants lying on a bed sorrounded with Ā£20 notesā€¦it just summed them up and how they wanted to rub the fans noses in itā€¦.
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For what it's worth - and everyone can make up their own mind on this - but Sam brought that up and was genuinely pissed off his friend posted that photo apparently without him knowing, even all these years later.

Sam was the only Oyston I spoke to who was actually contrite and apologetic, and said he was 'stupid and immature'. It was at least refreshing to hear him own up to it,. whether it makes any difference is up to each individual fan.
 
Towerpower99 said:
One of the pics that really peed me off (other than the cash cow pic) at the time was Sammy Brownpants lying on a bed surrounded with Ā£20 notesā€¦it just summed them up and how they wanted to rub the fans noses in itā€¦.
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That Cash Cow idea started life as a billboard poster on the side of a house, until someone šŸ˜¬ suggested using an advertising van.
Never thought he would be daft enough to pose next to it. šŸ˜‚ šŸ„
 
foggy said:
For what it's worth - and everyone can make up their own mind on this - but Sam brought that up and was genuinely pissed off his friend posted that photo apparently without him knowing, even all these years later.

Sam was the only Oyston I spoke to who was actually contrite and apologetic, and said he was 'stupid and immature'. It was at least refreshing to hear him own up to it,. whether it makes any difference is up to each individual fan.
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I suppose you can to a certain extent put his and his mates young age down as a reason for being pri*ksā€¦whatā€™s his Dads and Grandads excuseā€¦.
 
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TwelveAngryMen said:
Recall you and I used to speak all the time from early 2014
Had you on speed dial šŸ˜†
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Yep funny times, always felt like you were eating an apple when talking though. I've still not got hold of a copy yet so I've not commented on this thread too much which is frustrating but when I do I want to put across all the silly stuff that happened or nearly happened. For me one of the funniest was Raggy/Affroman in the Manchester courts and the judge reading out the email exchanges. The vulgarity was so extreme that listening to a posh judge reading it out had me in tears of laughter to the point I had to leave the room. Them two taking the piss out of Rod Dyer and other club officials after being on the stand after all blaming each other was brilliant also...."oh dear he's just thrown you right under the bus there hasn't he, looking a bit red in the face, feeling the pressure are we? It reminded me of the Aussies sledging in ashes games. So many comedy moments through the dark times.

Tennis ball protest..........750 people added into a secret Facebook group, except because I'm a numpty I accidently put club officials and stewards in who ran off to tell the Ground Safety Officer. I couldn't delete the group in one go and had to delete every member individually to get the group deleted. That took 3 days but I had already been rumbled. Hauled in to sign a naughty boys form and the GSO said had they not intercepted the plan thousands of balls would have landed on that pitch instead of 200. It was hard not to laugh when GSO mentions someone from the North Stand through a dildo onto the pitch. Also seeing people walking to the turnstiles like crabs coz they had Tennis balls stashed down their pants was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. A ball rolled out of a guys pants and onto the floor in front of a steward, disgraceful behaviour I said to the steward whilst keeping a straight face.
 
foggy said:
For what it's worth - and everyone can make up their own mind on this - but Sam brought that up and was genuinely pissed off his friend posted that photo apparently without him knowing, even all these years later.

Sam was the only Oyston I spoke to who was actually contrite and apologetic, and said he was 'stupid and immature'. It was at least refreshing to hear him own up to it,. whether it makes any difference is up to each individual fan.
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Interesting comments from Sam but is he being sincere or just using you to get sympathy knowing people never forget the past?
 
koudo said:
Interesting comments from Sam but is he being sincere or just using you to get sympathy knowing people never forget the past?
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I thought it was sincere, I think we can all remember being 25/26 and thinking about how dumb we were when we were 18, and that's how it came across. There's no doubt he was worried about his image though, and he was wanting to give his side to try to come out a little bit better - which he's entitled to try to do. But I also think that's only natural, and at least is quite a human response. It's what I'd expect a normal person to do.
 
foggy said:
You put it more lyrically in your posts, but my thinking was basically that fans already know about the protests, we were all there for them. Not all the details obviously, but anyone is welcome to come on avftt and tell their story any time. I did include some extra stuff about tennis ball game and hudds many might not have known, but to go into detail about each protest would have taken up the whole book. It was an important part of the book of course, but was never going to be the whole book.

In my opinion, and I think the feedback supports this, it's the stories from inside the club that haven't been publicised before that make it a must read. Sam getting arrested on promotion night, Karl trying a homemade pitch warming device that froze to the pitch, or getting drunk at football league meetings and supposedly throwing sugar cubes around and embarrassing himself, or allegedly getting arrested in Riga. Paul Ince fining players for eating before him, Owen Oyston apparently buying his PA a car then watching as she left, then buying her another car and a house when she came back, before she left again. The hotel allegedly having a fire hazard underneath the guests rooms (which one poster tried to downplay as 'dust in vents' for some reason). And a few dozen other little stories I wanted to pepper throughout the book that would make a fan go '** hell, I didn't know that', and chuckle to themselves. Those were the details I was most interested in, and believe others are too.
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I think you are now spoiling it for those who haven't read it yet
 
I was extremely bitter at the time due to missing 5 years because of the tyrants who shouldn't have been anywhere near our club. My wife had to tell me to chill out. I did quite a few of the protests & most of the marches & the cold EFL visit, but nothing compared with some. I wondered if reading the book would bring back bad memories. It didn't particularly though just astonishment even though I was aware of most of the content.
 
foggy said:
You put it more lyrically in your posts, but my thinking was basically that fans already know about the protests, we were all there for them. Not all the details obviously, but anyone is welcome to come on avftt and tell their story any time. I did include some extra stuff about tennis ball game and hudds many might not have known, but to go into detail about each protest would have taken up the whole book. It was an important part of the book of course, but was never going to be the whole book.

In my opinion, and I think the feedback supports this, it's the stories from inside the club that haven't been publicised before that make it a must read. Sam getting arrested on promotion night, Karl trying a homemade pitch warming device that froze to the pitch, or getting drunk at football league meetings and supposedly throwing sugar cubes around and embarrassing himself, or allegedly getting arrested in Riga. Paul Ince fining players for eating before him, Owen Oyston apparently buying his PA a car then watching as she left, then buying her another car and a house when she came back, before she left again. The hotel allegedly having a fire hazard underneath the guests rooms (which one poster tried to downplay as 'dust in vents' for some reason). And a few dozen other little stories I wanted to pepper throughout the book that would make a fan go '** hell, I didn't know that', and chuckle to themselves. Those were the details I was most interested in, and believe others are too.
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Foggy. Iā€™ve sent you a message on Facebook Messenger.
 
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