Football finance part 3277

basilrobbie3 said:
It's remarkable :

  • that a club can lose £21m on turnover of £18m....
  • .... and spend 131% of turnover on wages (themselves UP 86%)
  • it would be worse had they not earned a net £7m from transfers
  • but they still lost on average 396k every week

Step forward Hull City, 2022/23.
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Totally unsustainable, I've been waiting for it to implode for some time, but it just seems to limp on.
 
131%...

I think in League 1 as a recent relegated club, SCMP dictates that we can only spend up to 75% of our estimated (and winter revised) turnover on wages.
 
Yes saw this posted by Kieran Maguire - where are Hull City upto in cumulative losses over the last 3 years (re FFP) ?
 
Blackpool_Rox said:
Yes saw this posted by Kieran Maguire - where are Hull City upto in cumulative losses over the last 3 years (re FFP) ?
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Not sure Rox. Meliora rightly points out their previous profits, but I think thy had parachute payments then. Maguire's accompanying commentary on what they have done this last year suggests he thinks they are all in on promotion this time.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
It's remarkable :

  • that a club can lose £21m on turnover of £18m....
  • .... and spend 131% of turnover on wages (themselves UP 86%)
  • it would be worse had they not earned a net £7m from transfers
  • but they still lost on average 396k every week

Step forward Hull City, 2022/23.
Click to expand...

On their fans board there will be many telling the owner he “needs to spend more than that. He should know he was going to lose money and it’s only a loan”
 
basilrobbie3 said:
It's remarkable :

  • that a club can lose £21m on turnover of £18m....
  • .... and spend 131% of turnover on wages (themselves UP 86%)
  • it would be worse had they not earned a net £7m from transfers
  • but they still lost on average 396k every week

Step forward Hull City, 2022/23.
Click to expand...
go on then @basilrobbie3 something you might be interested in. not connected to the o/p but all to do with football finance which i know is of interest to you. Spurs have just announced season ticket prices and there is an increase of over 6% and they also intend to phase out cheaper season ticket prices for over 65's. That seems harsh but it is what it is. But the main point of addressing and making you aware is the [conspiracy] theory behind it. The theory is that many oap's will not be able to afford to pay the full price of season tickets and i'm not sure even if oap's are confined to certain areas but nevertheless that's not my point. The theory behind it is that it will release several thousand seats and significantly reduce the number of season tickets! Why would they do that when they have a supposed huge waiting list? The answer is that making many more tickets available on a match by match basis significantly increases the income streams coming into the club when you consider it's likely to be more than just a match day ticket purchased and "fans" are coming in from all over the world. This is at Tottenham but i'm sure that it's something thought about at certainly any of the big London clubs.

Being a resident of London had you heard of this and any thoughts?
 
Sooty59 said:
Totally unsustainable, I've been waiting for it to implode for some time, but it just seems to limp on.
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We all think these things are unsustainable Sooty but the Banks and Sky haven't pulled the plug, so on they go. Like Bumble Bees: aeronautically impossible for them to fly but they do it.
 
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20togo said:
go on then @basilrobbie3 something you might be interested in. not connected to the o/p but all to do with football finance which i know is of interest to you. Spurs have just announced season ticket prices and there is an increase of over 6% and they also intend to phase out cheaper season ticket prices for over 65's. That seems harsh but it is what it is. But the main point of addressing and making you aware is the [conspiracy] theory behind it. The theory is that many oap's will not be able to afford to pay the full price of season tickets and i'm not sure even if oap's are confined to certain areas but nevertheless that's not my point. The theory behind it is that it will release several thousand seats and significantly reduce the number of season tickets! Why would they do that when they have a supposed huge waiting list? The answer is that making many more tickets available on a match by match basis significantly increases the income streams coming into the club when you consider it's likely to be more than just a match day ticket purchased and "fans" are coming in from all over the world. This is at Tottenham but i'm sure that it's something thought about at certainly any of the big London clubs.

Being a resident of London had you heard of this and any thoughts?
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I think you have answered your own question there. Supply and demand. If there is a huge waiting list, as you say, then the obvious thing to do is increase prices. Levy is a shrewd operator, he has been criticized for not spending more on players and wages but he has them challenging for a Champions League place.
 
20togo said:
go on then @basilrobbie3 something you might be interested in. not connected to the o/p but all to do with football finance which i know is of interest to you. Spurs have just announced season ticket prices and there is an increase of over 6% and they also intend to phase out cheaper season ticket prices for over 65's. That seems harsh but it is what it is. But the main point of addressing and making you aware is the [conspiracy] theory behind it. The theory is that many oap's will not be able to afford to pay the full price of season tickets and i'm not sure even if oap's are confined to certain areas but nevertheless that's not my point. The theory behind it is that it will release several thousand seats and significantly reduce the number of season tickets! Why would they do that when they have a supposed huge waiting list? The answer is that making many more tickets available on a match by match basis significantly increases the income streams coming into the club when you consider it's likely to be more than just a match day ticket purchased and "fans" are coming in from all over the world. This is at Tottenham but i'm sure that it's something thought about at certainly any of the big London clubs.

Being a resident of London had you heard of this and any thoughts?
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I’m not answering for Robbie, and I do not think I am talking out of turn here….

…however, this was brought up in the BST committee WhatsApp group and every person though it was disgraceful.

The worry is, is this how other clubs who sell out week in week out will go?

We genuinely really believe SS would never do something like this, but it would be opposed very strongly if it ever happened in the future whoever our custodian is.

After all, it’s was initially my Grandad who took me to BFC - and back then (many years ago) I was among many others who were the future fan base.

UTMP always! 🧡
 
Not read much of the Reading stuff on here but I see their chairman has put the training ground up for sale and unless a buyer for the club turns up there will be a fire sale soon to fund them ongoing.

www.readingfc.co.uk

Statement | Short Term Funding

A statement from Mr Dai Yongge and Dayong Pang.
www.readingfc.co.uk www.readingfc.co.uk
 
Martonmosser said:
No chance while it’s a rich man’s play thing. Losses of a few million aren’t even registered against the tax for the earnings of some of these individuals and their groups of companies
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my son explained it to me a few weeks back. him being in mortgage finance. just like you say. hardly touches the personal wealth of some owners.
 
20togo said:
go on then @basilrobbie3 something you might be interested in. not connected to the o/p but all to do with football finance which i know is of interest to you. Spurs have just announced season ticket prices and there is an increase of over 6% and they also intend to phase out cheaper season ticket prices for over 65's. That seems harsh but it is what it is. (1)
Click to expand...

20togo said:
But the main point of addressing and making you aware is the [conspiracy] theory behind it. The theory is that many oap's will not be able to afford to pay the full price of season tickets and i'm not sure even if oap's are confined to certain areas but nevertheless that's not my point. The theory behind it is that it will release several thousand seats and significantly reduce the number of season tickets! Why would they do that when they have a supposed huge waiting list? (2)
Click to expand...

20togo said:
The answer is that making many more tickets available on a match by match basis significantly increases the income streams coming into the club when you consider it's likely to be more than just a match day ticket purchased and "fans" are coming in from all over the world. This is at Tottenham but i'm sure that it's something thought about at certainly any of the big London clubs. (3)

Being a resident of London had you heard of this and any thoughts?
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Yes, I'd heard of it as it is all over Twitter and colleagues at the THST are being kept very busy by it.

Three points arise, marked on your post :

(1) I'm slightly surprised that you are so sanguine about it. 6% on what are already very expensive tickets seems unnecessarily greedy from a club that is already making vast sums from this. If, as it claims, the club is suffering financial pressures, there are plenty of areas where they could cut cut back on spending, rather than further milking their core support.

(2) Spurs fans don't see this as a conspiracy theory ; they firmly believe that the club is actively trying to reduce the number of senior ST holders.. As you say, like Liverpool, they appear to want to expand the corporate section of their support and make extra space for so-called "football tourists". The theory - as you also say - is that this category of "fan" tends to buy merchandise and spend a lot of money on overpriced catering in a way that older, habitual fans don't.

(3) You are also right that this is not just a Spurs phenomenon, albeit they and Manchester United in particular are doing very well out of it. One of the reasons why City, Liverpool, Everton and Chelsea have been (or are) so keen on stadium expansion is that they want to be able to match what those two clubs already do.

My thoughts about it? Well, two main things really :

a) all things being equal, it is a pretty shabby way to treat people who have supported you for decades

b) there might be a large potential market out there, but are they loyal? Will they keep coming back once the novelty wears off? Bear in mind that, apart from the odd Cup or two this is a club that has won the square root of f*** all in recent times.

There are quite a lot of clubs in the EPL and EFL who appear to know the price of everything. Whether they know the value of anything is more moot. Spurs are just one of the worst examples of the trend.
 
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Wages are insane in the top leagues - daft thing is footballers would play for a lot less money than what they do get paid, madness.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Yes, I'd heard of it as it is all over Twitter and colleagues at the THST are being kept very busy by it.

Three points arise, marked on your post :

(1) I'm slightly surprised that you are so sanguine about it. 6% on what are already very expensive tickets seems unnecessarily greedy from a club that is already making vast sums from this. If, as it claims, the club is suffering financial pressures, there are plenty of areas where they could cut cut back on spending, rather than further milking their core support.

(2) Spurs fans don't see this as a conspiracy theory ; they firmly believe that the club is actively trying to reduce the number of senior ST holders.. As you say, like Liverpool, they appear to want to expand the corporate section of their support and make extra space for so-called "football tourists". The theory - as you also say - is that this category of "fan" tends to buy merchandise and spend a lot of money on overpriced catering in a way that older, habitual fans don't.

(3) You are also right that this is not just a Spurs phenomenon, albeit they and Manchester United in particular are doing very well out of it. One of the reasons why City, Liverpool, Everton and Chelsea have been (or are) so keen on stadium expansion is that they want to be able to match what those two clubs already do.

My thoughts about it? Well, two main things really :

a) all things being equal, it is a pretty shabby way to treat people who have supported you for decades

b) there might be a large potential market our there, but are they loyal? Will they keep coming back once the novelty wears off? Bear in mind that, apart from the odd Cup or two this is a club that has won the square root of f*** all in recent times.

There are quite a lot of clubs in the EPL and EFL who appear to know the price of everything. Whether they know the value of anything is more moot. Spurs are just one of the worst examples of the trend.
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firstly, as you know i tend not to get overly involved on these type of issues but knowing what i've seen,read and heard i just thought i'd put it to you for your thoughts.

re point 1, it's not a case of me being sanguine about it as it doesn't overly affect me. But to put your point one into some sort of context, i believe st prices have been held for the last four seasons and as some-one said, it only equates to 1.5 per season. And of course everything with regards to costs have gone up. So yep, there are two sides to it. Have st prices at bfc increased by 6% over the last four seasons? Don't genuinely know.

re point 2, i simply used the word conspiracy to make the point you are making. As some-one said though, if spurs ground held 100k they'd still fill it so yes they are putting a squeeze on loyalty in order to maximise profits. At a time when Levy had started to win back some of the fans he once again has shown that for him it's all about money and maximising profits. At the expense - rather apt - of everything else.

Nothing more to add really. Just thought you might be interested.
 
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Doesn’t surprise me. Spurs just come across as a bit of a mundane touristy London club.
At least at the likes of Liverpool and Newcastle you sense they live and breath their football and still get the working class locals attending (just).
 
20togo said:
"you should have cashed out, you should have cashed out, Ivan Toney you should have cashed out".
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It’s another indication of what’s wrong with football where a player is rightly banned for gambling but his club is sponsored by a betting firm and allegedly his club owner is given an exemption from the rules preventing gambling.
 
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