-0.3%

TSSeasider

Well-known member
Quite the contraction in the economy in one month. And I know it's subject to revision.

Interest rate rises doing the job the BoE want by the looks of it. Did they go too hard too fast though?

Going to be another difficult winter.
 
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Quite the contraction in the economy in one month. And I know it's subject to change.

Interest rate rises doing the job the BoE want by the looks of it. Did they go too hard too fast though?

Going to be another difficult winter.

Yes, hopefully that drop will get revised downwards eventually. Could do with some interest rate lowering mood music from the BoE, probably unlikely, and a pronto beginning to a steady reversal of the rises.
 
It's not like the BoE has form for making sound forecasts or decisions regarding the economy. Still, there's an outside chance they will get it right this time, if only by the law of averages.
 
To what purpose?

Well - 0.3 % per month on an annualised basis (if this figure is confirmed and replicated of course) would be quite a steep economic drop/recession.
A background of falling interest rates as well as falling inflation might help prevent some of that.
The BoE will I guess want to sit on it’s hands to see if the drop in inflation consolidates or not first though before acting?
 
The economy has shrunk because that's what high interest rates are supposed to do. There is only one sure fire way to stop inflation and that's to let under/unemployment rip. The trick is to preserve civil order while doing this as that chap in Argentina is about to find out. It's always jam tomorrow with these types which never seems to arrive, well not to us plebs anyway.
 
Well - 0.3 % per month on an annualised basis (if this figure is confirmed and replicated of course) would be quite a steep economic drop/recession.
A background of falling interest rates as well as falling inflation might help prevent some of that.
The BoE will I guess want to sit on it’s hands to see if the drop in inflation consolidates or not first though before acting?
What difference would further recession mean to working people, the cost of living for a majority is already reaching tipping point. Conventional wisdom dictates that a growing economy has wider public benefit, but it is simply a slightly different take on trickle down economics, in that the economic system might be looking good but everyday working people don't see much, if any of that benefit, the benefits go to the very wealthy and major corporations, who still push and need low wages and insecure jobs for a large proportion of workers, in order to maintain a growing economy.

Constantly pursuing economic growth without any underlying goal, such as full employment or full economic participation might be and quite probably is the principle problem, particularly in an economy that is driven by consumptive activity, where every year since the mid eighties just under 1% of the working population are taken out of the disposable income consumptive brackets and into only needs based consumption. over the last couple of years that 1% is thought to have to be around 2 to 3% per annum, with increased energy and food prices and landlords gouging tenants that 2 or 3% might be wildly understated.

The "growing economy" of the 90's left a huge proportion of the population with either barely sustainable debt or a complete inability to live according to the model of the economy that is being promoted, protected or managed by industrialised western governments, ie low interest, low inflation, low tax, growth based. The interconnectivity between inflation, interest rates and growth models just isn't there in the way that conventional economics tells us. The BoE's role is to protect maintaining monetary and financial stability, and the way they do this is low inflation. The fed is the same (more or less) as is the CEB.

In order to maintain low inflation rates (and hence low interest) there is a specific need in the current econ models for unemployment to be between 4 and 6%, which means that around a third of all workers have to be in generally low paid and more importantly insecure jobs to suppress wages, which specifically reduces overall consumptive capability, which for the last 40 plus years has been mitigated by artificially low interest rates, and high risk consumer lending, where everything form mortgages to auto loans to sub-prime credit cards become part of financial instruments in the investment sector and are considered through mathematical magic to be low risk, that risk is also moved away from the individual banks to the overall financial system, the taxpayer because the basic risk assessments are (deliberately and knowingly) flawed.

The economy falling by 0.3% is largely meaningless in the same way that if it was growing at 1%. The measurement itself is meaningless because it has no consideration to any wider economic goal. However I will admit that economic drops and their typical remedies will always fall on the working population, so its not good news, if there is any recovery, 99% of the benefits go to capital. Some of the basic ideas of economics need to change and I'm of the opinion (having listened and read far more qualified people) that economic shrinkage might be needed, but as yet I've not seen a model that doesn't disproportionately hit working people and labour in general.

The economy grows working working people get screwed; the economy shrinks working people get screwed.
 
What difference would further recession mean to working people, the cost of living for a majority is already reaching tipping point. Conventional wisdom dictates that a growing economy has wider public benefit, but it is simply a slightly different take on trickle down economics, in that the economic system might be looking good but everyday working people don't see much, if any of that benefit, the benefits go to the very wealthy and major corporations, who still push and need low wages and insecure jobs for a large proportion of workers, in order to maintain a growing economy.

Constantly pursuing economic growth without any underlying goal, such as full employment or full economic participation might be and quite probably is the principle problem, particularly in an economy that is driven by consumptive activity, where every year since the mid eighties just under 1% of the working population are taken out of the disposable income consumptive brackets and into only needs based consumption. over the last couple of years that 1% is thought to have to be around 2 to 3% per annum, with increased energy and food prices and landlords gouging tenants that 2 or 3% might be wildly understated.

The "growing economy" of the 90's left a huge proportion of the population with either barely sustainable debt or a complete inability to live according to the model of the economy that is being promoted, protected or managed by industrialised western governments, ie low interest, low inflation, low tax, growth based. The interconnectivity between inflation, interest rates and growth models just isn't there in the way that conventional economics tells us. The BoE's role is to protect maintaining monetary and financial stability, and the way they do this is low inflation. The fed is the same (more or less) as is the CEB.

In order to maintain low inflation rates (and hence low interest) there is a specific need in the current econ models for unemployment to be between 4 and 6%, which means that around a third of all workers have to be in generally low paid and more importantly insecure jobs to suppress wages, which specifically reduces overall consumptive capability, which for the last 40 plus years has been mitigated by artificially low interest rates, and high risk consumer lending, where everything form mortgages to auto loans to sub-prime credit cards become part of financial instruments in the investment sector and are considered through mathematical magic to be low risk, that risk is also moved away from the individual banks to the overall financial system, the taxpayer because the basic risk assessments are (deliberately and knowingly) flawed.

The economy falling by 0.3% is largely meaningless in the same way that if it was growing at 1%. The measurement itself is meaningless because it has no consideration to any wider economic goal. However I will admit that economic drops and their typical remedies will always fall on the working population, so its not good news, if there is any recovery, 99% of the benefits go to capital. Some of the basic ideas of economics need to change and I'm of the opinion (having listened and read far more qualified people) that economic shrinkage might be needed, but as yet I've not seen a model that doesn't disproportionately hit working people and labour in general.

The economy grows working working people get screwed; the economy shrinks working people get screwed.
It’s off the op but any thoughts on the decision by Milei in Argentina to devalue the peso by more than 50%? In purely economic terms?
 
Maybe a daft question, but how do they know? What do they measure?
 
It’s off the op but any thoughts on the decision by Milei in Argentina to devalue the peso by more than 50%? In purely economic terms?
Not really been following it closely, but at a basic level national debt is doubled, most middle class Argentinians tend to bank in US dollars so consumer credit is now doubled, public services will go down the toilet, but then the new pm was planning massive cuts to health, education and other public services, this just makes the cuts inevitable. I think Argentina is still under an EMF bailout as well, the devaluation might be two fingers to the EMF and the international community, expect another emf intervention, mass unemployment as public services are clipped to the bone, and probably hyper inflation and mega interest rates. Wouldn't surprise me if they try another little excursion to the Falklands within a couple of years.
 
What difference would further recession mean to working people, the cost of living for a majority is already reaching tipping point. Conventional wisdom dictates that a growing economy has wider public benefit, but it is simply a slightly different take on trickle down economics, in that the economic system might be looking good but everyday working people don't see much, if any of that benefit, the benefits go to the very wealthy and major corporations, who still push and need low wages and insecure jobs for a large proportion of workers, in order to maintain a growing economy.

Constantly pursuing economic growth without any underlying goal, such as full employment or full economic participation might be and quite probably is the principle problem, particularly in an economy that is driven by consumptive activity, where every year since the mid eighties just under 1% of the working population are taken out of the disposable income consumptive brackets and into only needs based consumption. over the last couple of years that 1% is thought to have to be around 2 to 3% per annum, with increased energy and food prices and landlords gouging tenants that 2 or 3% might be wildly understated.

The "growing economy" of the 90's left a huge proportion of the population with either barely sustainable debt or a complete inability to live according to the model of the economy that is being promoted, protected or managed by industrialised western governments, ie low interest, low inflation, low tax, growth based. The interconnectivity between inflation, interest rates and growth models just isn't there in the way that conventional economics tells us. The BoE's role is to protect maintaining monetary and financial stability, and the way they do this is low inflation. The fed is the same (more or less) as is the CEB.

In order to maintain low inflation rates (and hence low interest) there is a specific need in the current econ models for unemployment to be between 4 and 6%, which means that around a third of all workers have to be in generally low paid and more importantly insecure jobs to suppress wages, which specifically reduces overall consumptive capability, which for the last 40 plus years has been mitigated by artificially low interest rates, and high risk consumer lending, where everything form mortgages to auto loans to sub-prime credit cards become part of financial instruments in the investment sector and are considered through mathematical magic to be low risk, that risk is also moved away from the individual banks to the overall financial system, the taxpayer because the basic risk assessments are (deliberately and knowingly) flawed.

The economy falling by 0.3% is largely meaningless in the same way that if it was growing at 1%. The measurement itself is meaningless because it has no consideration to any wider economic goal. However I will admit that economic drops and their typical remedies will always fall on the working population, so its not good news, if there is any recovery, 99% of the benefits go to capital. Some of the basic ideas of economics need to change and I'm of the opinion (having listened and read far more qualified people) that economic shrinkage might be needed, but as yet I've not seen a model that doesn't disproportionately hit working people and labour in general.

The economy grows working working people get screwed; the economy shrinks working people get screwed.

Agree with most of that, and especially around the ‘balance’ between Capital and Labour, and the breakdown of orthodox economic theories and what has been going on in the real world.
We are where we are though. -3% in one month may be fairly meaningless, but that amount running over several quarters will blow most people no good, and many genuine harm.
A lot of low earners are self-employed and small business owners as well as those who are low paid and at risk of unemployment.
Personally I could quite happily live without what looks like a forthcoming recession and hope for at least an end to the interest rate rises and maybe at some point anyway perhaps a bit of prosperity.
You are right it won’t trickle down much, but in the short term at least it would be better than the alternative.
 
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Quite the contraction in the economy in one month. And I know it's subject to revision.

Interest rate rises doing the job the BoE want by the looks of it. Did they go too hard too fast though?

Going to be another difficult winter.
Agreed - and funny how the gas prices are going up just when we need to use more !!!
 
Agree with most of that, and especially around the ‘balance’ between Capital and Labour, and the breakdown of orthodox economic theories and what has been going on in the real world.
We are where we are though. -3% in one month may be fairly meaningless, but that amount running over several quarters will blow most people no good, and many genuine harm.
A lot of low earners are self-employed and small business owners as well as those who are low paid and at risk of unemployment.
Personally I could quite happily live without what looks like a forthcoming recession and hope for at least an end to the interest rate rises and maybe at some point anyway perhaps a bit of prosperity.
You are right it won’t trickle down much, but in the short term at least it would be better than the alternative.
This is where i almost always disagree, in that the remedies are not beneficial to normal or even fairly wealthy working people. the remedies are designed to protect the system and major entities.

I suppose because there's little chance of a government having any kind of enlightenment in the near future with regards to a more robust economic system, like you say we are left with what it is. at bet we have psychological ups and downs in relation to the published figures.
 
Agreed - and funny how the gas prices are going up just when we need to use more !!!
Market forces?? !!! more people need it, therefore price has to go up.

Its the basic model of privatised (profitised) businesses, particularly ex public sector, which are largely businesses that cant really give the (usually short term) returns in the markets that the markets require, but winter fuel needs and price gouging is just a perfect combination.
 
This is where i almost always disagree, in that the remedies are not beneficial to normal or even fairly wealthy working people. the remedies are designed to protect the system and major entities.

I suppose because there's little chance of a government having any kind of enlightenment in the near future with regards to a more robust economic system, like you say we are left with what it is. at bet we have psychological ups and downs in relation to the published figures.

Pretty much totally agreed I think. I am certainly not expecting any enlightenment short term.
 
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