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"A tall order from Crouch" - New pod out now.

td53

Well-known member
This is really good stuff. I'd argue it's got even more important content than the ones that feature Gary Madine touch stats... (I know, hard to believe!)

I loved listening to Christine and Tim talking about the present and past and hearing how happy they sounded at the fact the work they and others have done over the years has paid off - not just with Sadler, but now in a way that will impact the whole of football.

I think we should share this far and wide. It's the best summary/response I've heard to the fan led review. I.m.o it doesn't fix everything but it goes a long way to fixing some of the most serious issues and ensuring that we (and of course, other clubs) never have another Oyston-type in charge. - That's huge!

We should be really proud that our supporters have had such a huge say in this and see this, along with our current upward trajectory as reward for the efforts and sacrifices of the boycott years. The efforts that went in that period have given us the best atmosphere in football and our trust a credibility that meant they've had a massive influence on something that for once, tilts things more towards interests of supporters and long term future of clubs and football at all levels.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
Well done everyone that has played a part. Some great things done by BST. Big progress.

Long way to go yet and tricky battles ahead I reckon, though.

I've not followed it closely or even thought about it in much depth. Is the main aim to get more of the EPL cash into the EFL? If not, why bang that drum so much? Or is to improve the governance of EFL clubs so that owners like Oyston and Dale can't do what they did? I'm sure it's both, and other things too, but I hope the thinking is clear and focused on the key issues as things can fall apart if not. I have read the Guardian piece yesterday and the list of recommendations seems, to me at least, a bit like a wish list that might get pulled around in different directions. I'm sure those more involved can clarify. Be good to hear Robbie's take on the way forward.
 

td53

Well-known member
Well done everyone that has played a part. Some great things done by BST. Big progress.

Long way to go yet and tricky battles ahead I reckon, though.

I've not followed it closely or even thought about it in much depth. Is the main aim to get more of the EPL cash into the EFL? If not, why bang that drum so much? Or is to improve the governance of EFL clubs so that owners like Oyston and Dale can't do what they did? I'm sure it's both, and other things too, but I hope the thinking is clear and focused on the key issues as things can fall apart if not. I have read the Guardian piece yesterday and the list of recommendations seems, to me at least, a bit like a wish list that might get pulled around in different directions. I'm sure those more involved can clarify. Be good to hear Robbie's take on the way forward.
My main caveat from what I've read/listened to is that it seems to mitigate the impacts of the inequality without especially addressing the inequality itself.

That's not dismissing it at all, it was never going to fix that and what it does is tremendous but we're still dealing with solutions for cliff edge finances as opposed to dealing with the cliff edge.

I'd be naive to imagine that we'd have ended up with a disbanding of the premier league and a return to a collective bargaining of 92 clubs (and maybe a fixed and generous settlement for grassroots/ non league within that) but hey! I am naive!

It's a terrific achievement though and it's strong enough I think that even if it gets diluted as it is applied, it should still have an impact for good.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
My main caveat from what I've read/listened to is that it seems to mitigate the impacts of the inequality without especially addressing the inequality itself.

That's not dismissing it at all, it was never going to fix that and what it does is tremendous but we're still dealing with solutions for cliff edge finances as opposed to dealing with the cliff edge.

I'd be naive to imagine that we'd have ended up with a disbanding of the premier league and a return to a collective bargaining of 92 clubs (and maybe a fixed and generous settlement for grassroots/ non league within that) but hey! I am naive!

It's a terrific achievement though and it's strong enough I think that even if it gets diluted as it is applied, it should still have an impact for good.
Agreed. I'm wondering from afar if the strategy is right, without knowing enough to know.

The report makes 47 proposals. The key proposals apparently are:

- a 10% stamp duty style levy on premier League transfers to support smaller clubs. (could raise 160m a year)
- an independent regulator to oversee the english game with oversight of club finances
- and ownership of the directors fit and proper process, with a new integrity test
- a golden share held by clubs' supporters
- a shadow board made up by fans which must be consulted on key decisions
- limits on the amount of money owners can put into a club, to prevent unsustainable practices and stop the distortion of competition
- a reappraisal of parachute payments
- compulsory relegation and promotion clauses in players’ contracts.
- compulsory equality, diversity and inclusion plans for every club, building on the success of the Football Association’s leadership diversity code and the Premier League EDI standard.
- a review into the future of the women’s game.
- trials to allow the consumption of alcohol while watching a match.

And about 40 others.

What has the consumption of alcohol got to do with this? Really?

I'm not even sure about shadow boards. In my experience of negotiation it is better to have a very clear plan of what you really want, and how it will all work, and to stick to a very small number of key changes. Present a clear picture of a different system and why it will work better. Which would then enable other changes to follow, possibly at individual club level. Like the alcohol thing, and shadow boards - let each club's set up work that sort of thing out. Even the clauses in players' contracts. A regulator can't control, all the details, but it can set a framework that reduces the charlatans in the game by actually assessing potential owners rigorously, and create a better distribution of income, and more fan inclusion. As Christine said, we are fortunate to have Sadler but, if things went wrong for him, we'd be at the mercy of the next regime. Possibly back to square one.

Boil it down to the fundamental changes that will produce a more sustainable, fairer system.

1. An independent regulator that oversees the fit and proper person tests and oversees finances
2. A limit on the amount of money owners can put in. Maybe zero.
3. Possibly some form of fan representation, I don't know what
4. A system for distributing money through the game. Again, tricky and I don't know how

That's probably it. I'd be tempted to re-introduce a maximum wage!

At the moment, ridiculous amounts of TV money go into the pockets of players and some owners, that could and should be used for the benefit of many more people.

Just my initial thoughts based on very partial knowledge.
 

td53

Well-known member
Agreed. I'm wondering from afar if the strategy is right, without knowing enough to know.

The report makes 47 proposals. The key proposals apparently are:

- a 10% stamp duty style levy on premier League transfers to support smaller clubs. (could raise 160m a year)
- an independent regulator to oversee the english game with oversight of club finances
- and ownership of the directors fit and proper process, with a new integrity test
- a golden share held by clubs' supporters
- a shadow board made up by fans which must be consulted on key decisions
- limits on the amount of money owners can put into a club, to prevent unsustainable practices and stop the distortion of competition
- a reappraisal of parachute payments
- compulsory relegation and promotion clauses in players’ contracts.
- compulsory equality, diversity and inclusion plans for every club, building on the success of the Football Association’s leadership diversity code and the Premier League EDI standard.
- a review into the future of the women’s game.
- trials to allow the consumption of alcohol while watching a match.

And about 40 others.

What has the consumption of alcohol got to do with this? Really?

I'm not even sure about shadow boards. In my experience of negotiation it is better to have a very clear plan of what you really want, and how it will all work, and to stick to a very small number of key changes. Present a clear picture of a different system and why it will work better. Which would then enable other changes to follow, possibly at individual club level. Like the alcohol thing, and shadow boards - let each club's set up work that sort of thing out. Even the clauses in players' contracts. A regulator can't control, all the details, but it can set a framework that reduces the charlatans in the game by actually assessing potential owners rigorously, and create a better distribution of income, and more fan inclusion. As Christine said, we are fortunate to have Sadler but, if things went wrong for him, we'd be at the mercy of the next regime. Possibly back to square one.

Boil it down to the fundamental changes that will produce a more sustainable, fairer system.

1. An independent regulator that oversees the fit and proper person tests and oversees finances
2. A limit on the amount of money owners can put in. Maybe zero.
3. Possibly some form of fan representation, I don't know what
4. A system for distributing money through the game. Again, tricky and I don't know how

That's probably it. I'd be tempted to re-introduce a maximum wage!

At the moment, ridiculous amounts of TV money go into the pockets of players and some owners, that could and should be used for the benefit of many more people.

Just my initial thoughts based on very partial knowledge.
Yeah, I agree that tbe breadth is a risk - i.e you could adopt say 35 proposals but not the key ones and say 'look at tbe change!' and none have been changed but equally, i think it's a diverse cohort (football fans as a whole) and it's really hard to imagine that from that, one or two core things can sum up their concerns.

Even if we just look at clubs in crisis, the reasons are quite diverse. Not all owners of crisis clubs are 'bad' and not all bad owners are the same.

I tend to agree on the ale being aside point, but then again I think it's absurd that I'm allowed to drink ale at a gig or virtually any other sporting event or theatre show and I'm not at a football match so if it's to be reviews, grand!
 

td53

Well-known member
And yeah, I'm only working from limited engagement. I haven't had time to read whole thing. I've also misplaced my reading glasses lol!
 

bfcpete

Well-known member
Some really good recommendations in the report. However, it is the implementation that will be more problematic, with resistance from some parties. Just hope there is some action started soon and we see a timetable for further action rather than 'kicking things into the long grass'
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
As per usual, I'm going to be out on a limb with this, but I find it really difficult (despite everything Blackpool went through) to a) be remotely arsed about any of this and b) to wonder what the negative connotations of such significant interference into the game and finances might actually have.

I'm very much of a mindset (and always have been) that Football Clubs should be allowed to survive or fall based upon their own endeavours and in the case of Bury (whilst I get that they had a shit owner in the end) their issues didn;t start there and essentially stemmed from the fact that their local community didn't really support the Club.

Hopefully it will improve the game for those who are interested..... As for me.... I'd rather just tip up on a Saturday and leave this one to someone who gives a shit🤣
 

coppiceman

Well-known member
You should do more Pods like this. Interesting topic, two very knowledgeable speakers.

It's a real coup for the FSA isn't it? Would be interested to know from Christine how one Trust like ours manages to have influence when there are lots of others.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
As per usual, I'm going to be out on a limb with this, but I find it really difficult (despite everything Blackpool went through) to a) be remotely arsed about any of this and b) to wonder what the negative connotations of such significant interference into the game and finances might actually have.

I'm very much of a mindset (and always have been) that Football Clubs should be allowed to survive or fall based upon their own endeavours and in the case of Bury (whilst I get that they had a shit owner in the end) their issues didn;t start there and essentially stemmed from the fact that their local community didn't really support the Club.

Hopefully it will improve the game for those who are interested..... As for me.... I'd rather just tip up on a Saturday and leave this one to someone who gives a shit🤣
Really?!!!
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Really?!!!
Yep...

Blackpool Fans fought tooth and nail for our own Club and in the end we won... That's what fans do.... Just like when the Euro Super League was on the cards... We do what is required when it's required...

Legislation, Government interference, Shadow Boards, redistribution of wealth etc... It sounds like a complete nightmare...

So when the product is devalued, when the best teams can no longer afford the best players, when the TV companies choose to spend the big bucks in other countries, when the lower end of the pyramid is getting a much bigger slice of a much smaller pot etc... and in reality nobody is any better off at all....What then?

People get way too hung up about Clubs and their history.... League Football has only existed for a century or so and just like any business, Clubs will inevitably come and go, succeed and fail (that's the nature of competition)... So long as any Club has a solid supporter base it will survive anything..... Bury didn't survive because nobody was really that arsed about them until it was too late.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
Yep...

Blackpool Fans fought tooth and nail for our own Club and in the end we won... That's what fans do.... Just like when the Euro Super League was on the cards... We do what is required when it's required...

Legislation, Government interference, Shadow Boards, redistribution of wealth etc... It sounds like a complete nightmare...

So when the product is devalued, when the best teams can no longer afford the best players, when the TV companies choose to spend the big bucks in other countries, when the lower end of the pyramid is getting a much bigger slice of a much smaller pot etc... and in reality nobody is any better off at all....What then?

People get way too hung up about Clubs and their history.... League Football has only existed for a century or so and just like any business, Clubs will inevitably come and go, succeed and fail (that's the nature of competition)... So long as any Club has a solid supporter base it will survive anything..... Bury didn't survive because nobody was really that arsed about them until it was too late.
Well i don't agree. I'm not into over regulation and clubs need to self regulate better but the current situation needs addressing, in my opinion. And I don't think it needs to be horrendously complicated either.
 

coppiceman

Well-known member
Yep...

Blackpool Fans fought tooth and nail for our own Club and in the end we won... That's what fans do.... Just like when the Euro Super League was on the cards... We do what is required when it's required...

Legislation, Government interference, Shadow Boards, redistribution of wealth etc... It sounds like a complete nightmare...

So when the product is devalued, when the best teams can no longer afford the best players, when the TV companies choose to spend the big bucks in other countries, when the lower end of the pyramid is getting a much bigger slice of a much smaller pot etc... and in reality nobody is any better off at all....What then?

People get way too hung up about Clubs and their history.... League Football has only existed for a century or so and just like any business, Clubs will inevitably come and go, succeed and fail (that's the nature of competition)... So long as any Club has a solid supporter base it will survive anything..... Bury didn't survive because nobody was really that arsed about them until it was too late.
Well you are entitled to your views, clearly. It's lucky some fans are willing to fight for something better, even if you can't be arsed.

You should do a bit of basic research about Bury. Their fans might have found it hard to get organised, but they are still fighting for a better future. The issue there was that a charlatan was allowed to get control by the EFL, and they did precious little to stop him later. I know a couple of their fans who think the new ideas would have saved them.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Well i don't agree. I'm not into over regulation and clubs need to self regulate better but the current situation needs addressing, in my opinion. And I don't think it needs to be horrendously complicated either.
Aye... We'll see.... hopefully it will be OK.... I just have visions of armies of 'Hi Viz Hitlers' descending on boardrooms and revelling in their new found powers. I've never liked the idea of any fan involvement / interference at board level and I'm also dubious / nervous about financial restrictions / regulations which impact on the quality of the Premier League..... Get the balance wrong and these things have a habit of very quickly spiralling in the wrong direction (despite the best intentions)....

Anyway....Like I say.... what will happen will happen..... I'm fine with things as they are and if they change for the better, then great, if not, well I doubt it will impact me too much.👍
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Well you are entitled to your views, clearly. It's lucky some fans are willing to fight for something better, even if you can't be arsed.

You should do a bit of basic research about Bury. Their fans might have found it hard to get organised, but they are still fighting for a better future. The issue there was that a charlatan was allowed to get control by the EFL, and they did precious little to stop him later. I know a couple of their fans who think the new ideas would have saved them.
The fans at Bury have let their club down for years by failing to turn up and watch games... I've worked with the Club and it was and has been a financial basket case for as long as I can remember. The only reason a charlatan got hold of the club in the first place was because of the desperate state the club was in, through years of neglect by the local community, who would rather support United, City, Liverpool etc...
 

Toastrack

Well-known member
The only reason a charlatan got hold of the club in the first place was because of the desperate state the club was in, through years of neglect by the local community, who would rather support United, City, Liverpool etc...
Disagree, Dale didn't get hold of the club through neglect.

Before Dale bought Bury it was owned by Stewart Dale, a property developer who poured money into the club, "chasing the dream" in the same way (but on a smaller scale) as loads of Championship clubs have.
When Day's business failed, Bury were financially stuffed and vulnerable to the opportunist charlatan Dale.

Several points in Crouch's review - a fairer distribution of EPL income, limits on how much money owners can put into a club, a more stringent & ongoing owners & directors test - would have made Bury's demise much more unlikely.

With historically low crowds, they might have fallen out of the League at some point.
But that would have been due to the fluctuating fortunes any lower league club is subject to, not the actions of an avaricious character like Dale.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Disagree, Dale didn't get hold of the club through neglect.

Before Dale bought Bury it was owned by Stewart Dale, a property developer who poured money into the club, "chasing the dream" in the same way (but on a smaller scale) as loads of Championship clubs have.
When Day's business failed, Bury were financially stuffed and vulnerable to the opportunist charlatan Dale.

Several points in Crouch's review - a fairer distribution of EPL income, limits on how much money owners can put into a club, a more stringent & ongoing owners & directors test - would have made Bury's demise much more unlikely.

With historically low crowds, they might have fallen out of the League at some point.
But that would have been due to the fluctuating fortunes any lower league club is subject to, not the actions of an avaricious character like Dale.
The Club were up the Swanny financially before Stewart Day came along and baled them out financially.
 

BFC_53

Well-known member
Yep...

Blackpool Fans fought tooth and nail for our own Club and in the end we won... That's what fans do.... Just like when the Euro Super League was on the cards... We do what is required when it's required...

Legislation, Government interference, Shadow Boards, redistribution of wealth etc... It sounds like a complete nightmare...

So when the product is devalued, when the best teams can no longer afford the best players, when the TV companies choose to spend the big bucks in other countries, when the lower end of the pyramid is getting a much bigger slice of a much smaller pot etc... and in reality nobody is any better off at all....What then?

People get way too hung up about Clubs and their history.... League Football has only existed for a century or so and just like any business, Clubs will inevitably come and go, succeed and fail (that's the nature of competition)... So long as any Club has a solid supporter base it will survive anything..... Bury didn't survive because nobody was really that arsed about them until it was too late.
I think the important point though is that fans shouldn't have to fight for things like what league a club enters, or against owners who display fraudulent activities. We're stakeholders, not a demonstration or protest group that should be holding individuals to account - that's what the law should be doing in many of these cases!
You're right that clubs will come and go, but that should be dependent on what happens on the pitch. Bury left the league because of things happening off the pitch and that's the difference.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
I think the important point though is that fans shouldn't have to fight for things like what league a club enters, or against owners who display fraudulent activities. We're stakeholders, not a demonstration or protest group that should be holding individuals to account - that's what the law should be doing in many of these cases!
You're right that clubs will come and go, but that should be dependent on what happens on the pitch. Bury left the league because of things happening off the pitch and that's the difference.
Obviously, but you also need to be careful about over-legislating.... As I said, these things are often done with the best of intentions, but end up simply making the situation worse. Too much legislation and many of the individuals who might have stood up to save their local clubs will simply choose not to get involved...As ever, it won't be the teams at the top that pay the price.

And Bury left the league because after many years of poor support their club succumbed to the inevitable... Like every other Club their fans can still start from scratch and rebuild...The only issue is time and the will to carry on.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
The German 50+1 ownership model seems like a good idea on face value. Would have mitigated against the Oystons surely.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
The German 50+1 ownership model seems like a good idea on face value. Would have mitigated against the Oystons surely.
It would have also very likely prevented the OO taking over in the first place, which would have likely seen the Club go under....I know we all like to strike that 'fact' off the record, just like Bury want to completely rewrite their history, but as fans we need to be walking into this shit with our eyes open instead of lying to ourselves.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
It would have also very likely prevented the OO taking over in the first place, which would have likely seen the Club go under....I know we all like to strike that 'fact' off the record, just like Bury want to completely rewrite their history, but as fans we need to be walking into this shit with our eyes open instead of lying to ourselves.
Well that's a fair question. Bury went under anyway. And explain why we would have gone under? I guess Owen wouldn't have been interested on that basis. We don't know what would have happened though. I'm not of the mind that any old crook is better than nobody. Myself.
 

Phil_bfc deux

Well-known member
All this just smacks of Crouch playing to the gallery

Nothing is going to change, it would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas

As for limiting owners investment what a load of nonsense

The FSA are just a bunch of woke footballing nerds and need to focus on more important things like match day prices instead of trying to get involved in football politics

Imo of course ....
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Well that's a fair question. Bury went under anyway. And explain why we would have gone under? I guess Owen wouldn't have been interested on that basis. We don't know what would have happened though. I'm not of the mind that any old crook is better than nobody. Myself.
Yes, Bury went under anyway and it's a surprise many more Clubs including our own haven't gone under really. If it wasn't for the investment of the owners we all love to hate, then many more probably would have gone to the wall a long time ago.

The trouble is, as fans, we do tend to look on the circumstances in a biased way.... We want to airbrush out any idea that OO actually did save the Club from going under, because that doesn't really suit the eventual narrative that we like to put forward.... That's not in any way to try and excuse what happened, but instead to accept that it is possible that an owner can have been both beneficial to the Club and then subsequently acted like a twat and that those two things can exist at the same time.

What would have happened to Blackpool if OO had not stepped in is a moot point, but in all likelihood we wouldn't have had a Club or a Ground to discuss on this forum at all. We might create an alternative narrative to that, but I'd say that's likely to be borne more out of delusion than an honest take on reality... So we need to live with it.....

Of course, the potential for legislation, restrictions on spending or leveraging assets, the prospect of a load of interfering fans sticking their noses into your business (and wielding some power over them) is hardly going to entice potential investors, especially at the lower levels.... In fact, it's entirely possible that existing owners might well look to bail out as a direct result of the changes made.

These changes could just as easily break football as fix it and that’s the concern.

As Phil says above it’s the classic nerds sticking their noses in and assuming A + B = C… Not dissimilar to the Scientists trying to run Government during CoViD..

Tunnel vision thinking that assumes only a positive outcome and fails to consider the consequences.

Maybe we should have a detailed review into the potential consequences, before rushing headlong into this and whilst we’re at it maybe condense this stuff into a format and message that the average fan in the street (like myself) can actually be arsed with….

You only have to look at this thread and the lack of responses (despite attempts to whip up some responses) to see that nobody really gives a shit.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
Yes, Bury went under anyway and it's a surprise many more Clubs including our own haven't gone under really. If it wasn't for the investment of the owners we all love to hate, then many more probably would have gone to the wall a long time ago.

The trouble is, as fans, we do tend to look on the circumstances in a biased way.... We want to airbrush out any idea that OO actually did save the Club from going under, because that doesn't really suit the eventual narrative that we like to put forward.... That's not in any way to try and excuse what happened, but instead to accept that it is possible that an owner can have been both beneficial to the Club and then subsequently acted like a twat and that those two things can exist at the same time.

What would have happened to Blackpool if OO had not stepped in is a moot point, but in all likelihood we wouldn't have had a Club or a Ground to discuss on this forum at all. We might create an alternative narrative to that, but I'd say that's likely to be borne more out of delusion than an honest take on reality... So we need to live with it.....

Of course, the potential for legislation, restrictions on spending or leveraging assets, the prospect of a load of interfering fans sticking their noses into your business (and wielding some power over them) is hardly going to entice potential investors, especially at the lower levels.... In fact, it's entirely possible that existing owners might well look to bail out as a direct result of the changes made.

These changes could just as easily break football as fix it and that’s the concern.

As Phil says above it’s the classic nerds sticking their noses in and assuming A + B = C… Not dissimilar to the Scientists trying to run Government during CoViD..

Tunnel vision thinking that assumes only a positive outcome and fails to consider the consequences.

Maybe we should have a detailed review into the potential consequences, before rushing headlong into this and whilst we’re at it maybe condense this stuff into a format and message that the average fan in the street (like myself) can actually be arsed with….

You only have to look at this thread and the lack of responses (despite attempts to whip up some responses) to see that nobody really gives a shit.
I understand what you're saying. But Phil is just doing the macho grandstanding thing that is in his DNA, again! He's wrong a lot of the time.

This is an interesting debate and you make valid points. Which I will come back to when I have more time. But. I don't believe the current situation is healthy, and I don;'t think leaving it alone is the way forward. I think it could easily go wrong, but there are different systems around the world and ours is not the best. I think.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
I understand what you're saying. But Phil is just doing the macho grandstanding thing that is in his DNA, again! He's wrong a lot of the time.

This is an interesting debate and you make valid points. Which I will come back to when I have more time. But. I don't believe the current situation is healthy, and I don;'t think leaving it alone is the way forward. I think it could easily go wrong, but there are different systems around the world and ours is not the best. I think.
I think sometimes you have to accept the imperfections that exist and focus on the positives. Football is a competition both in terms of the sport and business and that means there will be losers as well as winners and some might just lose hard. Teams will go out of existence and new teams will emerge to take their place etc..

To my mind there's an element of being too overly sentimental and / or protectionist over the whole thing, instead of realising that nothing lasts forever and, in reality, nothing that has genuine value is likely to disappear for long.

I listened for a short time before getting bored (sorry) and Tim mentioned Germany (I've been on a few of those trips)... The one thing that stands out above all else about German Football is, quite simply, it is BORING... Quite possibly the most boring football I've ever witnessed in 50 years, so boring, that watching the crowds is more entertaining, prematch is far more entertaining etc...etc... The German National Team has also lost their way in recent years, whilst English Football internationally and in terms of the Premier League is on the up... The Premier League remains the best and most exciting league in the World and attracts huge revenue.... The league is more competitive than any other league in the world and The Championship too is improving, attracts massive crowds and is the best 2nd League around... So should we be following the German Model or should they be following Ours?

Yep, there are plenty of Clubs who have lived the highlife and paid the price... So what? It opens up doors for someone else to have a spell in the sunshine, gives a bit of grounding to the supporters who've developed the billy big bollocks attitude and as we know ourselves makes you enjoy the good times when they come around that bit more.

We're obsessed these days with "Fixing" everything..... Why not just let it be?
 
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voyeur

Well-known member
I think sometimes you have to accept the imperfections that exist and focus on the positives. Football is a competition both in terms of the sport and business and that means there will be losers as well as winners and some might just lose hard. Teams will go out of existence and new teams will emerge to take their place etc..

To my mind there's an element of being too overly sentimental and / or protectionist over the whole thing, instead of realising that nothing lasts forever and, in reality, nothing that has genuine value is likely to disappear for long.

I listened for a short time before getting bored (sorry) and Tim mentioned Germany (I've been on a few of those trips)... The one thing that stands out above all else about German Football is, quite simply, it is BORING... Quite possibly the most boring football I've ever witnessed in 50 years, so boring, that watching the crowds is more entertaining, prematch is far more entertaining etc...etc... The German National Team has also lost their way in recent years, whilst English Football internationally and in terms of the Premier League is on the up... The Premier League remains the best and most exciting league in the World and attracts huge revenue.... The league is more competitive than any other league in the world and The Championship too is improving, attracts massive crowds and is the best 2nd League around... So should we be following the German Model or should they be following Ours?

Yep, there are plenty of Clubs who have lived the highlife and paid the price... So what? It opens up doors for someone else to have a spell in the sunshine, gives a bit of grounding to the supporters who've developed the billy big bollocks attitude and as we know ourselves makes you enjoy the good times when they come around that bit more.

We're obsessed these days with "Fixing" everything..... Why not just let it be?
I'm not a believer in the totally free market, generally speaking. It leads to exploitation, pollution, misery, chaos etc.

Same in football. There's a fascination with the jungle, but we can do better. Some people identify with gorillas and lions and say "let us all fight it out". But hasn't human civilisation improved life for many by creating order, through the introduction of laws, and regulating how certain things work? Just cos German football is boring is doesn't mean that regulating the organisation of our clubs would make our game boring. It wouldn't. We have s culture that won't change, in terms of how the game plays out on the pitch. We are not German.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
I'm not a believer in the totally free market, generally speaking. It leads to exploitation, pollution, misery, chaos etc.

Same in football. There's a fascination with the jungle, but we can do better. Some people identify with gorillas and lions and say "let us all fight it out". But hasn't human civilisation improved life for many by creating order, through the introduction of laws, and regulating how certain things work? Just cos German football is boring is doesn't mean that regulating the organisation of our clubs would make our game boring. It wouldn't. We have s culture that won't change, in terms of how the game plays out on the pitch. We are not German.
I don’t know, as I said at the outset, despite being drawn into the conversation (as usual) I can’t really be arsed with it.

I’m cool with football as it is, warts and all and I’m not particularly motivated by meddling fans trying to gain influence at boardroom level… It’s all a bit Trade Union-like for me….

Hopefully if we’re forced to go down this route then the Government will have the good sense to make it light touch..

As supporters we’ve done more than our bit and frankly it’s time we just enjoyed the match day instead of continuing with all the political bollocks.

Edit: I’m going to leave it there 👍
 

voyeur

Well-known member
I don’t know, as I said at the outset, despite being drawn into the conversation (as usual) I can’t really be arsed with it.

I’m cool with football as it is, warts and all and I’m not particularly motivated by meddling fans trying to gain influence at boardroom level… It’s all a bit Trade Union-like for me….

Hopefully if we’re forced to go down this route then the Government will have the good sense to make it light touch..

As supporters we’ve done more than our bit and frankly it’s time we just enjoyed the match day instead of continuing with all the political bollocks.

Edit: I’m going to leave it there 👍
But we had many years of absolute shite, thanks to poor governance, dodgy businessmen running the game for their own dodgy purposes. Karl on the EFL board. And if Sadler got into financial troubles it could all happen again. I hear what you're saying, partly agree, but not entirely. It's bonkers to allow any Tom Dick or Harry the freedom to wreak havoc. And asset strip. In my opinion. I was a trade unionist, mind. Trade unions are responsible for many things. Reductions in deaths at work, for example.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
But we had many years of absolute shite, thanks to poor governance, dodgy businessmen running the game for their own dodgy purposes. Karl on the EFL board. And if Sadler got into financial troubles it could all happen again. I hear what you're saying, partly agree, but not entirely. It's bonkers to allow any Tom Dick or Harry the freedom to wreak havoc. And asset strip. In my opinion. I was a trade unionist, mind. Trade unions are responsible for many things. Reductions in deaths at work, for example.
I’ll respond and then that’s me….

I’m fine with the fact that things could go similarly wrong at our club and preferrably at someone else’s.

Other Clubs fucking up presents opportunities for those who don’t etc…

In other words I see the potential for clubs to fail badly to be a good thing rather than a bad thing. It’s actually what makes the competition so interesting.
 

td53

Well-known member
As per usual, I'm going to be out on a limb with this, but I find it really difficult (despite everything Blackpool went through) to a) be remotely arsed about any of this and b) to wonder what the negative connotations of such significant interference into the game and finances might actually have.

I'm very much of a mindset (and always have been) that Football Clubs should be allowed to survive or fall based upon their own endeavours and in the case of Bury (whilst I get that they had a shit owner in the end) their issues didn;t start there and essentially stemmed from the fact that their local community didn't really support the Club.

Hopefully it will improve the game for those who are interested..... As for me.... I'd rather just tip up on a Saturday and leave this one to someone who gives a shit🤣
Tbh, I think my interest begins and ends with tbe fact the financial structures are palpably designed to ensure big clubs stay big and small clubs don't threaten that.

My interest is precisely because I just want to watch football. I don't want to worry about loads of bullshit. Hence, if football can work out a structure whereby it safeguards against that. Great. I have zero interest in committees or owt. Literally none.
Obviously, but you also need to be careful about over-legislating.... As I said, these things are often done with the best of intentions, but end up simply making the situation worse. Too much legislation and many of the individuals who might have stood up to save their local clubs will simply choose not to get involved...As ever, it won't be the teams at the top that pay the price.

And Bury left the league because after many years of poor support their club succumbed to the inevitable... Like every other Club their fans can still start from scratch and rebuild...The only issue is time and the will to carry on.
The problem of lack of owners comes from the fucked up finances as much as anything. Why would anyone want to put money into a football club? You'd have to be mental. You either have to give it absolutely everything to stand still and break even like say, Accy or you have to burn money to progress.

The local support is a factor, yeah, it is, but Bury have always averaged more than the likes of Accy and Morecambe and paid the cost of ambition. It's not so simple as saying 'lack of support' nor is it as simple as saying 'bad owners'

Clubs have always had crises, but the frequency of that has risen hugely in last 30 years.

Look at the ownership of clubs. It's global now. Why? Cos hardly anyone English actually wants to buy their clubs cos the scale of finance involved is absurd.


I don’t know, as I said at the outset, despite being drawn into the conversation (as usual) I can’t really be arsed with it.

I’m cool with football as it is, warts and all and I’m not particularly motivated by meddling fans trying to gain influence at boardroom level… It’s all a bit Trade Union-like for me….

Hopefully if we’re forced to go down this route then the Government will have the good sense to make it light touch..

As supporters we’ve done more than our bit and frankly it’s time we just enjoyed the match day instead of continuing with all the political bollocks.

Edit: I’m going to leave it there 👍
Trade unions can be derided but are they all bad? No, of course they aren't. The interplay between trade unionism and business begats progress. Deriding trade unions as all negative would be as naive as saying all business owners are psychopaths. Clearly they arent. The world progresses through interplay of forces and whilst, no, as I stated in my post, I don't think the Fan led review has all the answers, I think it's important that for tbe first time in years, there is a voice that speaks for something other than the biggest clubs global branding potential.

Even if all that comes out of it is a few million for grass roots football, great. That's not that complicated or nerdy. It's kids having pitches to play on.
 

voyeur

Well-known member
Tbh, I think my interest begins and ends with tbe fact the financial structures are palpably designed to ensure big clubs stay big and small clubs don't threaten that.

My interest is precisely because I just want to watch football. I don't want to worry about loads of bullshit. Hence, if football can work out a structure whereby it safeguards against that. Great. I have zero interest in committees or owt. Literally none.

The problem of lack of owners comes from the fucked up finances as much as anything. Why would anyone want to put money into a football club? You'd have to be mental. You either have to give it absolutely everything to stand still and break even like say, Accy or you have to burn money to progress.

The local support is a factor, yeah, it is, but Bury have always averaged more than the likes of Accy and Morecambe and paid the cost of ambition. It's not so simple as saying 'lack of support' nor is it as simple as saying 'bad owners'

Clubs have always had crises, but the frequency of that has risen hugely in last 30 years.

Look at the ownership of clubs. It's global now. Why? Cos hardly anyone English actually wants to buy their clubs cos the scale of finance involved is absurd.



Trade unions can be derided but are they all bad? No, of course they aren't. The interplay between trade unionism and business begats progress. Deriding trade unions as all negative would be as naive as saying all business owners are psychopaths. Clearly they arent. The world progresses through interplay of forces and whilst, no, as I stated in my post, I don't think the Fan led review has all the answers, I think it's important that for tbe first time in years, there is a voice that speaks for something other than the biggest clubs global branding potential.

Even if all that comes out of it is a few million for grass roots football, great. That's not that complicated or nerdy. It's kids having pitches to play on.
Well said sir. 👍
 

TwelveAngryMen

Well-known member
All this just smacks of Crouch playing to the gallery

Nothing is going to change, it would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas

As for limiting owners investment what a load of nonsense

The FSA are just a bunch of woke footballing nerds and need to focus on more important things like match day prices instead of trying to get involved in football politics

Imo of course ....
It’s not the turkeys voting - it’s the farmers 😉
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Tbh, I think my interest begins and ends with tbe fact the financial structures are palpably designed to ensure big clubs stay big and small clubs don't threaten that.

My interest is precisely because I just want to watch football. I don't want to worry about loads of bullshit. Hence, if football can work out a structure whereby it safeguards against that. Great. I have zero interest in committees or owt. Literally none.

The problem of lack of owners comes from the fucked up finances as much as anything. Why would anyone want to put money into a football club? You'd have to be mental. You either have to give it absolutely everything to stand still and break even like say, Accy or you have to burn money to progress.

The local support is a factor, yeah, it is, but Bury have always averaged more than the likes of Accy and Morecambe and paid the cost of ambition. It's not so simple as saying 'lack of support' nor is it as simple as saying 'bad owners'

Clubs have always had crises, but the frequency of that has risen hugely in last 30 years.

Look at the ownership of clubs. It's global now. Why? Cos hardly anyone English actually wants to buy their clubs cos the scale of finance involved is absurd.



Trade unions can be derided but are they all bad? No, of course they aren't. The interplay between trade unionism and business begats progress. Deriding trade unions as all negative would be as naive as saying all business owners are psychopaths. Clearly they arent. The world progresses through interplay of forces and whilst, no, as I stated in my post, I don't think the Fan led review has all the answers, I think it's important that for tbe first time in years, there is a voice that speaks for something other than the biggest clubs global branding potential.

Even if all that comes out of it is a few million for grass roots football, great. That's not that complicated or nerdy. It's kids having pitches to play on.
The simplistic notion that shifting a bigger percentage of revenue out of the Premier League will actually be beneficial is very naive…

Ensuring the overwhelming majority of PL revenue finds its way to delivering the best possible product and attracting the best possible players is fundamental to ensuring the revenue continues to roll in…

Interfere with that and you risk handing the opening to other countries to step
In and fill the void.
 

Dark_Side_of_the_Lune

Well-known member
The simplistic notion that shifting a bigger percentage of revenue out of the Premier League will actually be beneficial is very naive…

Ensuring the overwhelming majority of PL revenue finds its way to delivering the best possible product and attracting the best possible players is fundamental to ensuring the revenue continues to roll in…

Interfere with that and you risk handing the opening to other countries to step
In and fill the void.
Do you own a car dealership in Wilmslow? Or supply vodka to nightclubs in Mcr? 🤪
 

nameless

Well-known member
All this just smacks of Crouch playing to the gallery

Nothing is going to change, it would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas

As for limiting owners investment what a load of nonsense

The FSA are just a bunch of woke footballing nerds and need to focus on more important things like match day prices instead of trying to get involved in football politics

Imo of course ....
Agreed. Don't know if anyone has picked up on it but the FSA want one of their national council on the independent regulators panel, where group membership is quite restrictive ie affiliate groups (Trusts etc) get the bulk of the votes so it becomes a clique.

I listened to the podcast but it didn't really explain how exactly the new initiative will deal with the nuts and bolts of change ie do they stop parachute payments immediately,will the new transfer tax have an effect on amortisation for finance regs?
It sounds all very neat and tidy and really simple to introduce, but sounds to me like a group of nerds trying to run it along trade union lines in some sort of socialist principle ; set against a capitalist system of wealthy clubs who are really going to go along with that.

The single basic fact is that far too many supporters prefer to watch wall to wall televised football and pay for the privilege, either in the UK or right across the globe. How can a small unrepresentative group of UK based fans have any meaningful input into multi billion organisations wishing to invest, when they cant even garner support from the national fanbase?

The Newcastle position must be the most obvious 'bang to rights' abuse of ownership and the FSA cant even organise a decent protest against that, mind you the CEO is a Newcastle fan
 
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