Another Police Officer stabbed.

They should bring back the death penalty ,but we have had this discussion recently and a few people think that the wrong person may be convicted . Well the innocent would still have to serve life in prison and the death penalty may just deter a few more being killed .
 
WIZARD OF TANGERINE said:
They should bring back the death penalty ,but we have had this discussion recently and a few people think that the wrong person may be convicted . Well the innocent would still have to serve life in prison and the death penalty may just deter a few more being killed .
Click to expand...
I’ve said on here many times the death penalty should be brought back for nailed on cases of murder/terrorism etc.
Yes I accept cases where any doubt may exist shouldn’t come under the same spot light.
Loved ones left behind have to endure a life of grief and sorrow while murderers lap it up in prison on 3 meals a day often involved in drug dealing and making money for when their out usually after 20 years.
Somethings just not right in todays society when you take another life you can get another chance.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Two in fact one seriously ill in hospital yes in London yet again.

And people still oppose stop and search methods by the Met Police. 🙄

Should get life imprisonment for me attacking a Police officer with a knife in fact I’d go one further and say anyone using a knife to attack another person should.
Click to expand...
Do you have any evidence to say stop and search would be effective here?
 
The very last thing we need is regressive policies like ‘state imposed murder’. We’ve moved on from the death penalty and barbarism.

There’s a need to address the immediate problem of knife crime, but we also need to develop long term strategies / solutions that address and deal with the underlying causes of crime, rather than tackling the symptoms.

We need to focus on doing things that actually work (things that may be counter-intuitive even) as opposed to satisfying the lust for retribution.
 
Fuck me, if we have to have the ** death penalty debate again, it's like banging your head against a wall trying to explain why it can't happen.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Two in fact one seriously ill in hospital yes in London yet again.

And people still oppose stop and search methods by the Met Police. 🙄

Should get life imprisonment for me attacking a Police officer with a knife in fact I’d go one further and say anyone using a knife to attack another person should.
Click to expand...
Offenders should get a lengthy sentence (5 years?) just for carrying one without good reason IMO.
I’ve no real objections to stop and search either in principle.
 
Johnno said:
Offenders should get a lengthy sentence (5 years?) just for carrying one without good reason IMO.
I’ve no real objections to stop and search either in principle.
Click to expand...
Currently can get up to 4 years for carrying a knife
 
foggy said:
Currently can get up to 4 years for carrying a knife
Click to expand...
👍
I had a feeling that that had been brought in some years back, but after reading so many examples of action not being taken I thought I’d imagined it.
In that case the powers that be need to start enforcing it to the max.
 
foggy said:
Do you have any evidence to say stop and search would be effective here?
Click to expand...
No I don’t but do you otherwise?

The vast majority of people crying out against stop and search are the people who have something to hide any law abiding citizen (and I’am one of them) have absolutely to issues with being stoped and searched in the street.

People carry knifes for a reason and it’s not to eat with.
 
Death penalty no.
Simplify sentence yes... ie 5 years means 5 years providing you don’t breach rules etc inside... if you do sentence extended.
But I do feel much more has to be done to tackle root cause of crime, in particular person on person crime.
 
The problem is we simply don’t have enough police to ensure the offenders, or most of them at least, will be caught and for those that are caught there are not enough prisons to house them hence the ridiculously lenient sentences being dished out. Before we can even consider increasing penalties we need to sort out the basics so that there is a real chance that the perpetrators will be caught and punished in the first place.
The higher the chances of being caught the greater the deterrent in my opinion. I also agree that the sentence handed out should be a minimum with increases for bad behaviour.
 
foggy said:
Do you have any evidence to say stop and search would be effective here?
Click to expand...
Yep, since S & S has virtually been negated by the Snowflakes etc etc violent crime and especially knife crime has escalated.

The irony is that S & S on the black community is frowned upon yet they are the biggest offenders AND the biggest recipients of the crime.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
Yep, since S & S has virtually been negated by the Snowflakes etc etc violent crime and especially knife crime has escalated.

The irony is that S & S on the black community is frowned upon yet they are the biggest offenders AND the biggest recipients of the crime.
Click to expand...
....bloody hell.... blue touch paper well and truly lit....tin hat time.... in coming ....😁👍
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
No I don’t but do you otherwise?

The vast majority of people crying out against stop and search are the people who have something to hide any law abiding citizen (and I’am one of them) have absolutely to issues with being stoped and searched in the street.

People carry knifes for a reason and it’s not to eat with.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works is it? You can't propose and enact policies with no proof they work and then just say 'well you can't prove they dont'. Ok, my new policy is we should arrest you and your family because it will reduce crime. I have no evidence it will work, but you don't have evidence it won't work.

Having said that, there have been studies done on stop and search in London and New York and there is no evidence it has any effect. Google the BLUNT 2 data from early last decade. Exceptionally little to no effect (and lasting in the region of three weeks if there was a fraction of a percentage changed).

Or here https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/news/stop-and-search-has-no-impact-crime-new-report

"We found little evidence of an effect from stop and search on violent crime. The only statistically significant result was the net effect from weapons searches at the weekly level, and the effect here was very small indeed; a 10% increase in stop/search led to a 0.01% decrease in non-domestic violent crime. Similarly we found very little effect as a result of stop/search on weapon enabled non-domestic violent crime, and no effect whatsoever when it came to ambulance incident data for calls related to stab/shot/weapon wounds"

So to have any sort of even marginal effect you would need massive increases in stop and search, many times over what was being done here and New York at the height of its policy. Just to get a half a percent or so effect. And no evidence of even that when it comes to knife crime specifically. All with the increase in alienation and distrust of local communities. Never mind the social effect and politics of it, it's a shockingly crude, wasteful and ineffective policy.
 
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Newholland said:
....bloody hell.... blue touch paper well and truly lit....tin hat time.... in coming ....😁👍
Click to expand...
🤔

Why ‘bloody hell etc, etc when Bendit’s statement can be backed up with facts

www.london.gov.uk

Calls for a commission on knife crime in the black community

Despite making up 13% of London’s total population, black Londoners account for 45% of London’s knife murder victims.
www.london.gov.uk www.london.gov.uk

Or is it just another bit of right wing nut job philosophising on your part

On an unrelated topic, why is Waldorf the Hut so full of shite
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
Yep, since S & S has virtually been negated by the Snowflakes etc etc violent crime and especially knife crime has escalated.

The irony is that S & S on the black community is frowned upon yet they are the biggest offenders AND the biggest recipients of the crime.
Click to expand...
If you can't discuss policy without words such as 'snowflake' there probably isn't very much use in me bothering here, but just to clarify, what you have posted is not evidence. Correlation does not equal causation. Police budgets and staffing levels have been cut in the same time period. How do you know that didn't cause crime to increase? Why has other crime increase that has nothing to do with stop and search too?
 
foggy said:
If you can't discuss policy without words such as 'snowflake' there probably isn't very much use in me bothering here, but just to clarify, what you have posted is not evidence. Correlation does not equal causation. Police budgets and staffing levels have been cut in the same time period. How do you know that didn't cause crime to increase? Why has other crime increase that has nothing to do with stop and search too?
Click to expand...
I’d give that last sentence a bit more thought if I were you.
 
Scaramanga said:
If you have nothing to hide, what’s the problem ? not carrying out stop and search only encourages the knife carrying mentalist to carry a knife. This is about as obvious as the nose on your face.
Click to expand...
Ok so if the police were to stop you every day the moment you step outside of your house and search you, you'd have no problem with that? After all, you're not hiding anything.
 
foggy said:
Ok so if the police were to stop you every day the moment you step outside of your house and search you, you'd have no problem with that? After all, you're not hiding anything.
Click to expand...
See your now exaggerating, nobody has been stop and searched every time they stepped outside their house, you are pontificating to Labour your point.
 
Scaramanga said:
See your now exaggerating, nobody has been stop and searched every time they stepped outside their house, you are pontificating to Labour your point.
Click to expand...
No, I'm highlighting the absurdity of your idea that if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't care if police stop you.
 
Recidivist3 said:
🤔

Why ‘bloody hell etc, etc when Bendit’s statement can be backed up with facts

www.london.gov.uk

Calls for a commission on knife crime in the black community

Despite making up 13% of London’s total population, black Londoners account for 45% of London’s knife murder victims.
www.london.gov.uk www.london.gov.uk

Or is it just another bit of right wing nut job philosophising on your part

On an unrelated topic, why is Waldorf the Hut so full of shite
Click to expand...
If black people in London commit 50% of knife crime, why are 77% of stop and searches done on black people?
 
foggy said:
No, I'm highlighting the absurdity of your idea that if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't care if police stop you.
Click to expand...
If a police officer stopped me in the street to search me I wouldn’t give a stuff, I’ve nothing to hide, so sorry you are wrong.
 
foggy said:
If black people in London commit 50% of knife crime, why are 77% of stop and searches done on black people?
Click to expand...
I assume you didn’t read his post, it answers your question if those stats are true.
 
Scaramanga said:
I assume you didn’t read his post, it answers your question if those stats are true.
Click to expand...
I assume you didn't read his post if you don't know where those stats come from. And no, I haven't been given an answer as to why black people are disproportionately stopped. Do you? I'll give you a clue it's racism.
 
Scaramanga said:
Sounds to me like you are losing your argument.
Click to expand...
Not really, I have a problem with black people being disproportionatelly stopped by police as part of a policy which there is no evidence to say works. I have a problem with the racist erasure of civil rights.

I'm also certain your attitude would change if a police officer came to your house during COVID lockdowns and demanded to search your phone and belongings in case you had broken lockdown rules.
 
foggy said:
If you can't discuss policy without words such as 'snowflake' there probably isn't very much use in me bothering here, but just to clarify, what you have posted is not evidence. Correlation does not equal causation. Police budgets and staffing levels have been cut in the same time period. How do you know that didn't cause crime to increase? Why has other crime increase that has nothing to do with stop and search too?
Click to expand...
To being a retired Police Officer serving in 3 Forces (including London) and having a son who has served 22 years, I think I have a decent perspective on what works and doesn't and what social proportion of crime is active at the moment.

I make no apology for calling do-gooders 'snowflakes' as that's my opinion of people who have interfered with the moral fibre of society for decades.Its my opinion.

If you don't like it or take offence, that's your right, but seriously I couldn't care less.
 
foggy said:
Not really, I have a problem with black people being disproportionatelly stopped by police as part of a policy which there is no evidence to say works. I have a problem with the racist erasure of civil rights.

I'm also certain your attitude would change if a police officer came to your house during COVID lockdowns and demanded to search your phone and belongings in case you had broken lockdown rules.
Click to expand...
Well now your changing the subject, we’re talking about S&S not covid.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
To being a retired Police Officer serving in 3 Forces (including London) and having a son who has served 22 years, I think I have a decent perspective on what works and doesn't and what social proportion of crime is active at the moment.

I make no apology for calling do-gooders 'snowflakes' as that's my opinion of people who have interfered with the moral fibre of society for decades.Its my opinion.

If you don't like it or take offence, that's your right, but seriously I couldn't care less.
Click to expand...
So to clarify you don't actually have any evidence. You think your anecdotal, biased suspicions are better than years of empirical data.

Ok, so tell me if stop and search worked why was there no effect on non-domestic knife crime?
 
Scaramanga said:
Well now your changing the subject, we’re talking about S&S not covid.
Click to expand...
No, right now we are talking about your principle of 'if you've nothing to hide why should you care'. Keep up. Would you care if police came to your house demanding access to your home and phone data to see if you had broken lockdown laws? Or do you abandon principles like that on a whim.
 
foggy said:
No, right now we are talking about your principle of 'if you've nothing to hide why should you care'. Keep up. Would you care if police came to your house demanding access to your home and phone data to see if you had broken lockdown laws? Or do you abandon principles like that on a whim.
Click to expand...
No I’m not having that deflection, the two are different subjects. You seem to have missed my reply where I told you I have absolutely no problem getting stopped and searched by a police officer, at any time of the day. Especially if I knew that it could stop someone else who might be carrying a knife that could kill someone. You clearly care more about someone’s feeling rather than a knife victims rights to lI’ve.
 
Scaramanga said:
No I’m not having that deflection, the two are different subjects. You seem to have missed my reply where I told you I have absolutely no problem getting stopped and searched by a police officer, at any time of the day. Especially if I knew that it could stop someone else who might be carrying a knife that could kill someone. You clearly care more about someone’s feeling rather than a knife victims rights to lI’ve.
Click to expand...
You don't know that, you have no evidence to support 'knowing' that. It's an ineffective policy.

I'm glad you have confirmed you are ready to abandon your ideals at the minor inconvenience of the second example I could come up with. Hopefully now you can see someone in this circumstance of S+S would have have a problem, even with nothing to hide. You wouldn't like COVID police presumably because you think it's an overreach and not actually helping. Some may think the very same about stop and search.
 
foggy said:
You don't know that, you have no evidence to support 'knowing' that. It's an ineffective policy.

I'm glad you have confirmed you are ready to abandon your ideals at the minor inconvenience of the second example I could come up with. Hopefully now you can see someone in this circumstance of S+S would have have a problem, even with nothing to hide. You wouldn't like COVID police presumably because you think it's an overreach and not actually helping. Some may think the very same about stop and search.
Click to expand...
Talking utter garbage, while you are on the subject of deflection, what’s your thoughts on this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1570296561221120000
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
To being a retired Police Officer serving in 3 Forces (including London) and having a son who has served 22 years, I think I have a decent perspective on what works and doesn't and what social proportion of crime is active at the moment.

I make no apology for calling do-gooders 'snowflakes' as that's my opinion of people who have interfered with the moral fibre of society for decades.Its my opinion.

If you don't like it or take offence, that's your right, but seriously I couldn't care less.
Click to expand...
Its just a general term of abuse aimed presumably at people whos views you diagree with, opinion or not .
 
Recidivist3 said:
🤔

Why ‘bloody hell etc, etc when Bendit’s statement can be backed up with facts

www.london.gov.uk

Calls for a commission on knife crime in the black community

Despite making up 13% of London’s total population, black Londoners account for 45% of London’s knife murder victims.
www.london.gov.uk www.london.gov.uk

Or is it just another bit of right wing nut job philosophising on your part

On an unrelated topic, why is Waldorf the Hut so full of shite
Click to expand...
Didn’t question Bendits subject matter... was merely pointing out to him that if you question Foggy you are bound to be on the receiving end of a barrage of posts ... as you can see from above ...
Crack on with your insults if makes you feel important 👍
 
foggy said:
That's not how it works is it? You can't propose and enact policies with no proof they work and then just say 'well you can't prove they dont'. Ok, my new policy is we should arrest you and your family because it will reduce crime. I have no evidence it will work, but you don't have evidence it won't work.

Having said that, there have been studies done on stop and search in London and New York and there is no evidence it has any effect. Google the BLUNT 2 data from early last decade. Exceptionally little to no effect (and lasting in the region of three weeks if there was a fraction of a percentage changed).

Or here https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/news/stop-and-search-has-no-impact-crime-new-report

"We found little evidence of an effect from stop and search on violent crime. The only statistically significant result was the net effect from weapons searches at the weekly level, and the effect here was very small indeed; a 10% increase in stop/search led to a 0.01% decrease in non-domestic violent crime. Similarly we found very little effect as a result of stop/search on weapon enabled non-domestic violent crime, and no effect whatsoever when it came to ambulance incident data for calls related to stab/shot/weapon wounds"

So to have any sort of even marginal effect you would need massive increases in stop and search, many times over what was being done here and New York at the height of its policy. Just to get a half a percent or so effect. And no evidence of even that when it comes to knife crime specifically. All with the increase in alienation and distrust of local communities. Never mind the social effect and politics of it, it's a shockingly crude, wasteful and ineffective policy.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. S and S needs to be combined with proper sentences to be effective. An increase in one without the other is a waste of time, IMO.
 
foggy said:
So to clarify you don't actually have any evidence. You think your anecdotal, biased suspicions are better than years of empirical data.

Ok, so tell me if stop and search worked why was there no effect on non-domestic knife crime?
Click to expand...
And you do what for a living?
 
foggy said:
Ok so if the police were to stop you every day the moment you step outside of your house and search you, you'd have no problem with that? After all, you're not hiding anything.
Click to expand...
That’s not how it works and you know that.

You get stopped for looking like you may well be carrying a weapon or acting suspiciously 99.9% of the general public don’t stand out to the Police in such a way.

I say again only those that have something to hide are always the innocent party here who think their being picked on or victimised by the Police.

For every one knife that the Police remove off the streets it one life potentially saved in my book.
 
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Bend it like Suddick said:
And you do what for a living?
Click to expand...
Well, partly, research. Knowing good sources. Evidence for whether a policy such as this works comes from looking at unbiased, objective data from every borough in London, cross-comparing with crime statistics, and ambulance call out statistics, done rigorously over years. Hundreds of thousands of data points. You are very entitled to your opinion, and I make no claim to personally know more based on my own experience or knowledge. I do however, believe that empirical studies know more. Because you still haven't answered my question. Why is there no data to support your claims? These things get tracked. Crime reports get logged. Hospital admissions get logged. Amount of searches get logged. If it worked, there would be evidence.
 
foggy said:
So to clarify you don't actually have any evidence. You think your anecdotal, biased suspicions are better than years of empirical data.

Ok, so tell me if stop and search worked why was there no effect on non-domestic knife crime?
Click to expand...
To your first point - its only biased because that's your opinion. Mine is based with having to deal with crime, not someone on a keyboard who can google so called 'facts' and wouldn't be able to do the job in a million years. 'Anecdotal' big word, but where do I make an amusing story about an incident or person. If you think knife crime or putting your life on the line for 30 years is amusing, then that's truly pathetic and like your argument totally out of context.Bravo for that.

to your second point, I concede that The MetPol figures are not encouraging (but that's them), S & S was incredibly successful in other parts of the Country, not only for knife crime but detecting burglary etc etc
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
That’s not how it works and you know that.

You get stopped for looking like you may well be carrying a weapon or acting suspiciously 99.9% of the general public don’t stand out to the Police in such a way.

I say again only those that have something to hide are always the innocent party here who think their being picked on or victimised by the Police.
Click to expand...
If you have read anything about stop and search, you will know how deeply open to bias and racial stereotyping this system is. And how badly it fosters alienation and mistrust in local communities.
 
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