Another Police Officer stabbed.

foggy said:
If you have read anything about stop and search, you will know how deeply open to bias and racial stereotyping this system is. And how badly it fosters alienation and mistrust in local communities.
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Why don’t you just say the Police stop and search more black people?

Look at the stats on what colour/ethnic background most of the knife crimes committed are from.

I rest my case that stop and search is hated by the very said same group of people.

Is that so wrong?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Why don’t you just say the Police stop and search more black people?

Look at the stats on what colour/ethnic background most of the knife crimes committed are from.

I rest my case that stop and search is hated by the very said same group of people.

Is that so wrong?
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Yes, police stop black people disproportionately. Black people commit 50% of knife crime yet are 77% of the people stopped and searched. Since you were seemingly making the case they should be proportional, I hope you realise that is wrong.
 
Scaramanga said:
Social justice eco tofu eating warrior
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Social justice is a good thing surely?
By eco I presume you mean caring for the environment, what’s wrong with that?
Totally agree with you on the tofu.
 
foggy said:
Yes, police stop black people disproportionately. Black people commit 50% of knife crime yet are 77% of the people stopped and searched. Since you were seemingly making the case they should be proportional, I hope you realise that is wrong.
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I’ll think you’ll find it’s way up on 50% of crime.
And I say again if you’ve nothing to hide what’s the problem with stop and search?
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
To your first point - its only biased because that's your opinion. Mine is based with having to deal with crime, not someone on a keyboard who can google so called 'facts' and wouldn't be able to do the job in a million years. 'Anecdotal' big word, but where do I make an amusing story about an incident or person. If you think knife crime or putting your life on the line for 30 years is amusing, then that's truly pathetic and like your argument totally out of context.Bravo for that.

to your second point, I concede that The MetPol figures are not encouraging (but that's them), S & S was incredibly successful in other parts of the Country, not only for knife crime but detecting burglary etc etc
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Thank you for conceding there is no evidence stop and search worked in London. I have no idea where the stuff about 'amusing' came from. Anedoctal data, which I didn't particularly think was a big word, just means coming from one person's perspective, which is biased and not exhaustive. After all, can you tell me off the top of your head how many incidents of knife crime there was last year in London and how many incidents of stop and search? Do you have those figures at hand for the last 15 years. Across boroughs? Do you have the year by year increases/decreases? Of course not, you have to look them up.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
So just 13% of the black community commit 53% of the knife crime.

I rest my case.
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So if you want police to search black people proportionally by the amount of knife crime they commit, you must be concerned they get searched disproportionately more?
 
Johnno said:
What proportion of the population are black?
Unless it’s 53% your argument falls down, surely?
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No, because I wasn't arguing black people in London don't commit a disproportionate amount of knife crime. I was arguing they get stopped disproportionately. If they commit 53% of knife crime, then they should be stopped 53% of the time. But they are stopped 77% of the time.
 
foggy said:
Thank you for conceding there is no evidence stop and search worked in London. I have no idea where the stuff about 'amusing' came from. Anedoctal data, which I didn't particularly think was a big word, just means coming from one person's perspective, which is biased and not exhaustive. After all, can you tell me off the top of your head how many incidents of knife crime there was last year in London and how many incidents of stop and search? Do you have those figures at hand for the last 15 years. Across boroughs? Do you have the year by year increases/decreases? Of course not, you have to look them up.
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That's assuming the data is correct in the first place.

Edit to add: your definition of anecdotal is acceptable. Ive done something I rarely do and that's googled .
 
Surely what they are saying is a certain demographic are causing us a problem so maybe we need to target that demographic more ? no matter the colour
 
foggy said:
So if you want police to search black people proportionally by the amount of knife crime they commit, you must be concerned they get searched disproportionately more?
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As said above I want the Police to randomly search all people on the streets who look guilty/suspicious.
It’s just tough shit if the majority of these people are black or ethnic groups.
Or are you saying the Police are guilty of racism?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
As said above I want the Police to randomly search all people on the streets who look guilty/suspicious.
It’s just tough shit if the majority of these people are black or ethnic groups.
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Unfortunately, there is no objective basis on who 'looks suspicious'. And if you are asking police officers to just stop people who they think looks dodgy, you are opening that up to their own personal biases and prejudices.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
I never said it didn't work. If just one offender is found through S & S it might have saved another persons life.
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And I would argue a 0.0001% success rate, is a waste of police time and resources, although that I will happily concede I know little about, what I do know more about however, is that such an apallingly wasteful policy creates mistrust in the public, and when it effects bame communities more, will create alienation. This is not good for a public institutions. I am guessing you would agree, that policing works better when they have buy in from local communities who trust them?
 
foggy said:
Unfortunately, there is no objective basis on who 'looks suspicious'. And if you are asking police officers to just stop people who they think looks dodgy, you are opening that up to their own personal biases and prejudices.
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Believe you me a trained officer can tell who a suspicious person is in the same way a trained road traffic officer can tell who’s been drink driving and one who hasn’t.
You look dodgy then be prepared to get searched in my book irrespective of race or colour.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Believe you me a trained officer can tell who a suspicious person is in the same way a trained road traffic officer can tell who’s been drink driving and one who hasn’t.
You look dodgy then be prepared to get searched in my book irrespective of race or colour.
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Well this clearly isn't true since the vast majority of stop and searches are of a person who is not carrying a weapon and has committed no offence.
 
Scaramanga said:
Surely what they are saying is a certain demographic are causing us a problem so maybe we need to target that demographic more ? no matter the colour
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If they targeted black people to the proportion of knife crime they commit, I wouldn't be criticising that part of the policy. However, white people committed 50% of knife crime in London and yet were only 7.5% of those stopped and searched. Unfortunately, per capita black people are 4 or 5 times more likely to be stopped than a white person, despite both committing around 50% of knife crime.
 
foggy said:
Well this clearly isn't true since the vast majority of stop and searches are of a person who is not carrying a weapon and has committed no offence.
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I wouldn’t have expected every stop and search produces a weapon.
But if one in 25 does it’s still a tick in the box from me.
 
foggy said:
If they targeted black people to the proportion of knife crime they commit, I wouldn't be criticising that part of the policy. However, white people committed 50% of knife crime in London and yet were only 7.5% of those stopped and searched. Unfortunately, per capita black people are 4 or 5 times more likely to be stopped than a white person, despite both committing around 50% of knife crime.
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So you advocating for S&S then. Yep it makes sense.
 
foggy said:
If they targeted black people to the proportion of knife crime they commit, I wouldn't be criticising that part of the policy. However, white people committed 50% of knife crime in London and yet were only 7.5% of those stopped and searched. Unfortunately, per capita black people are 4 or 5 times more likely to be stopped than a white person, despite both committing around 50% of knife crime.
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you seem adamant to ignore the fact that only 13% of Londoners are black.
It makes a massive difference.
 
Scaramanga said:
So you advocating for S&S then. Yep it makes sense.
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Nope, there's no evidence it works. But if it wasn't racist, it would at least have one less problem.

You know it's interesting, there's been plenty of posters here very quick to defend the police by pointing out that black people commit more knife crime, and therefore stop and searches are proportional. And yet when I point out they commit 50% of knife crime and are 77% of stop and searches, those posters go very quiet, or try go change the subject. I do wonder why it's so hard for someone to just say that it's wrong.
 
Johnno said:
you seem adamant to ignore the fact that only 13% of Londoners are black.
It makes a massive difference.
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What does this have to do with the fact that if 53% of knife crime is committed by black people, if it were proportional they would be around 53% of stops.
 
Get tough on the law breakers, get more prisons built to house them, take all their rights away while in there and confiscate all what is theirs as it will have come from crime. No paper work and useless solicitor arguing the toss what is theirs.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
As said above I want the Police to randomly search all people on the streets who look guilty/suspicious.
It’s just tough shit if the majority of these people are black or ethnic groups.
Or are you saying the Police are guilty of racism?
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So following your basic grasp on this situation.......

There are Football Hooligans.....
So you must agree that all football fans are hooligans and should therefore be treated as hooligans no matter what the situation is and therefore, Police can instantly treat anyone wearing a football shirt as hostile and can act accordingly to move them away from public areas with force....whether they are going to a match or not?

If you have a Cockney accent and are anywhere near Millwall or Chelsea grounds.....Police are automatically allowed to stop you, search you, hold you for questioning and check if you have a football shirt on...and you cant stop them

Happy to agree to that as a football fan???
 
foggy said:
Nope, there's no evidence it works. But if it wasn't racist, it would at least have one less problem.

You know it's interesting, there's been plenty of posters here very quick to defend the police by pointing out that black people commit more knife crime, and therefore stop and searches are proportional. And yet when I point out they commit 50% of knife crime and are 77% of stop and searches, those posters go very quiet, or try go change the subject. I do wonder why it's so hard for someone to just say that it's wrong.
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S&S works for me, i couldn't give a toss if they white Black or Purple with yellow spots, that clear enough.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Oh give over. When we were held back by the police at Brum you were one of the loudest moaners.

Oh yeah. I remember. You were cold 😂
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I actually walked out while everyone got held back, but your right it was freezing
 
foggy said:
What does this have to do with the fact that if 53% of knife crime is committed by black people, if it were proportional they would be around 53% of stops.
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Law of probability.
If any particular group, who only make up 13% of the population, are committing 50% of any particular crime, then it makes more sense to stop someone belonging to that group.
To have the same chance of stopping an offender from the rest of the population you would have to stop about 7 times as many of them.
 
Johnno said:
Law of probability.
If any particular group, who only make up 13% of the population, are committing 50% of any particular crime, then it makes more sense to stop someone belonging to that group.
To have the same chance of stopping an offender from the rest of the population you would have to stop about 7 times as many of them.
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No, the data is population controlled. White people per 1,000 are 4/5 times more likely to be stopped.
 
foggy said:
If they targeted black people to the proportion of knife crime they commit, I wouldn't be criticising that part of the policy. However, white people committed 50% of knife crime in London and yet were only 7.5% of those stopped and searched. Unfortunately, per capita black people are 4 or 5 times more likely to be stopped than a white person, despite both committing around 50% of knife crime.
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I get this point Foggy, but it's not quite that simple...

Black people represent just under 8% of the population of London.. (It's much less nationally).. Those identifying as white in London is around 60%...

On that basis (and assuming knife crims is 50/50 as you state) a Black individual is 7.5 times more likely to be involved in Knife Crime than a white individual. If you then narrow that down further to a specific age profile, include other profiling factors then you can probably narrow things down even further still... So given the limited Police resources, I suppose it's not unreasonable that they are trying to be more targeted in their approach to try and maximise the impact they can have.
 
foggy said:
Sees something tragic... immediately jumps onto the football message board to use it as a way to attack someone he disagrees with because ignoring basic facts and pretending everyone who disagrees with you is evil is much easier.
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Well , last post deleted, no surprise. Maybe your first experience of the mods being on your side. Get used to it.
 
foggy said:
Sees something tragic... immediately jumps onto the football message board to use it as a way to attack someone he disagrees with because ignoring basic facts and pretending everyone who disagrees with you is evil is much easier.
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That footage is just so horrible to watch randomly lashing out with a knife.
In any other country in the world he quite rightly would have been shot.
And let’s face it he should have been shot here.
That sort of violence shouldn’t be tolerated on British streets.
 
In the year ending March 2022 there were over 41,000 assaults on police by members of the public which were prosecuted

In the same period there were under 4,000 complaints against police of assault of which 7% were upheld.

It's a dangerous job and getting more dangerous. I thought the O/P was about 2 police officers being stabbed for no reason in London, WTF has racism or stop & Search have to do with it? If I had my time again I would never have joined, it's a thankless, shit job and the pay, for what you have to do is appalling. I wouldn't recommend the job to anyone if they asked me. And it's a lot worse now then when I joined with so many inexperienced police officers who see the job as a 5 year stint now rather than it be a lifetime profession as it used to be.
 
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