Bring back the death penalty?

Just on Rayner, what she has done to raise herself may be immense but there is a difference between that and intelligence.

There is no reason why working class women shouldn't be on the front benches as you suggest but I don't think they should be there just because they happen to be female and working class.
And she isn't. She wasn't appointed to the front bench - as all others are. She's there as the elected deputy leader of the party. I suspect, if she wasn't, she wouldn't have a snow ball's chance in Starmer's shadow cabinet. No, she's there because members want her there.
 
And she isn't. She wasn't appointed to the front bench - as all others are. She's there as the elected deputy leader of the party. I suspect, if she wasn't, she wouldn't have a snow ball's chance in Starmer's shadow cabinet. No, she's there because members want her there.

I haven't got time for any of them 66 but no problem if you do.

Right now, the football is more important to me than a few stupid politicians to be honest.
 
If you steal, hands cut off. Maybe not the the first time or less serious.
rape or you are the p word, dick cut off.
Kill, family decide your fate.
that will sort a lot of it out.
 
I would. For the most heinous crimes we need to be much tougher.

I’m sickened at the shooting of a little 9 year old girl. It’s on the back of other gun killings in Liverpool in the last few weeks.

Quite simply, in my opinion, the shooter of this girl no longer deserves to walk this planet. Recklessly shooting a gun indiscriminately in a strangers home is one of the most uncivilised criminal acts imaginable.

The public has to be protected. We have become a soft touch on crime and criminals.

So I’d welcome a debate on reintroducing the death penalty. Why should some evil criminal be allowed to live when they’ve taken the life of a little girl? I’d gladly buy a ticket to watch whoever did this be exterminated. Anyone aiding and abetting this offender as they try to evade justice should have all assets stripped off them and be incarcerated for a decade at least.

It’s time to get tough on these so called humans. I’d vote for the return of the death penalty and personally rejoice when these evil pondlife are extinguished. Good riddance to those who waste the privilege of life and use it to take another’s.
100% agree
 
Unlucky yes - but not impossible - which is why I am totally against the death penalty.
Simple question to expose your real point of view……


If it was absolutely 100% guaranteed (it’s on cctv from many different angles and 1000 eye witnesses confirm it etc etc) that the person who gets convicted for the Murder of this innocent 9 year old girl is Guilty would you agree with him being executed?

I didn’t think you would. I think this “wrongly convicted people” line is bogus
 
Yes that’s right…..he will get to carry on LIVING his life and very possibly in an environment that he doesn’t mind living in…..GREAT justice
Prison isn't a great life, it's not the picnic that's portrayed in certain sections of the media. Overcrowded, full of volatile head cases, locked in your cell for 23 hours a day.
 
And the barristers are on strike so they can earn more money getting these criminals off or a lesser sentence. Some of them must be as low as the criminals themselves.
 
That’s a good clip.
It finishes which someone quoting Archbishop Desmond tutu who said if you kill someone, for taking the life of another, it’s revenge not justice.

I don’t quite agree with that viewpoint. I’d say it’s revenge AND justice.
All punishment is a form of revenge. It’s society showing its displeasure that they’ve been wronged by a criminal. So that leads to punishment as a consequence or revenge.
I agree

Revenge has a bad name.

As I get older I tend to think there should be more of it frankly.

But yeah. It’s sometimes rained down on the heads of the wrong people.

But as a concept it’s got its virtues.

And I’m serious by the way.
 
How the fuck do you know what it’s like??…..but you’re ALIVE unlike the 9 year old girl you snuffed out and ruined her family’s lives forever
I know someone who spent time in prison and I also read a book written by a prison officer and another by a prisoner who spent five years in wormwood scrubs, its grim. I'm not sure why you are telling me I'm alive unlike the 9 year old girl, is that the level of your debate? Know I realise why we end up with Priti Patel as Home Secretary.
 
I know someone who spent time in prison and I also read a book written by a prison officer and another by a prisoner who spent five years in wormwood scrubs, its grim. I'm not sure why you are telling me I'm alive unlike the 9 year old girl, is that the level of your debate? Know I realise why we end up with Priti Patel as Home Secretary.
Btw I know a few people who have been in Prison and have read more than a book or two
 
My nephew Ben was murdered when he was 16. There are similarities with the murder of the little girl in Liverpool in that he was in his own home when intruders burst in.
At home were his younger sisters (who were upstairs getting ready for bed) and my mum, his grandma.
There were three assailants. All worked together at a KFC. One was 17 and the other two were in their twenties and thirties. They had been drinking that day and had hatched a plan to attack my nephew - because the 17 year old was jealous that Ben had a blossoming friendship with the 17 year olds former girlfriend. There was a history of threats against Ben. These were subsequently found by the police. These included many messages e.g one threat was that he would be found and attacked with a sword.
On the day of the murder they watched Ben’s house and eventually spotted him returning home. It was daylight as it was an early June evening.
They chased him to his house but he managed to get in and close the front door. Alas, this wasn’t enough to deter them, and they proceeded to break in through smashing in the front door. This was witnessed by the neighbours. They battered my mum for getting in their way and knocked her out cold. (Her face looked like a purple cabbage in the days after the attack).
They then beat Ben up using great violence. Three men one 16 year old boy. The 17 year old then went into the kitchen and got a knife and returned to fatally stabbed Ben multiple times whilst he was being held by the other two men. Despite receiving many stab wounds, Ben had no defensive wounds because he was prevented from defending himself.
The three men fled. My mum came round to find Ben bleeding to death. His last words were ‘Grandma - look at all this blood’. He died in his Grandmas arms. He never did make it to his GCSE exams which started the next day and which he’d been studying so hard for.
The three men were soon arrested. They weren’t the cleverest. They had been seen by neighbours. My mum could identify them. There was the threats found on the computer. There was other intel which soon identified them as chief suspects.
When they were arrested they all admitted what they’d done. There was physical evidence. There was dna, fingerprints, eye witness accounts, phone records, text messages between the men, the previous threats, the motive, their confessions.
Eventually one was given 10 years for murder and the other two with given a few years for ABH.
I’m not saying this is a case where a death penalty would have been appropriate. I try not to think too much about that. But it’s an example of a pathetically weak justice system. The sentences were far too lenient in my opinion. The impact on Ben’s mum and sisters, and my mum, are lifelong and devastating. That’s something they’ll never get over.
But the reason I’m using this case as an example for this thread is:-
1. all this talk of revenge being a dirty thing that somehow makes us less human. Well until you’ve had a close family member murdered it’s so easy to look at such events and be holier than though and play the decency card. It should be what the family want that primarily counts when it comes to justice, not what some far removed observers think.
2. This talk of not being 100% certain is ridiculous. There are cases where the evidence will be overwhelming and indisputable. As with Ben’s murder. There’s not a shadow of a doubt that the right people were convicted. There’s not a sane person that would think otherwise. Each case would have to be looked at on its merits. But to say we can’t be sure 100% is nonsense. Yes you can say that when theorising hypothetically, but in a real life case such as my nephews you can be absolutely 100% sure.
 
If it stopped children being shot dead in the future then yes . Life is full of unfairness from road accidents to diseases and if you ask some prisoners who are serving life if they would have preferred the death penalty some may say yes looking at the number of suicides there is in prison.
Suicides in prison is irrelevant to this argument.

You state you would be happy for innocent people to be executed - I am not.

…and if it was a deference then any country with the death penalty would not have a death row - oh hang on…….
 
Simple question to expose your real point of view……


If it was absolutely 100% guaranteed (it’s on cctv from many different angles and 1000 eye witnesses confirm it etc etc) that the person who gets convicted for the Murder of this innocent 9 year old girl is Guilty would you agree with him being executed?

I didn’t think you would. I think this “wrongly convicted people” line is bogus
You have not read my earlier post!!!!
 
Suicides in prison is irrelevant to this argument.

You state you would be happy for innocent people to be executed - I am not.

…and if it was a deference then any country with the death penalty would not have a death row - oh hang on…….
Your way of thinking is dated . As I pointed out with modern technology its near on impossible to convict the wrong person , and if we did so its unlikely new evidence is likely to pop up to give any hope of an appeal . An innocent man sent to prison for life when he has no gang affiliations will have years of misery and I can't see why suicides are irrelevant . Give them a choice of a humane way out after the first year or two of serving and you may find that some would take it. I am talking from experience rather then being a nosey do-gooder who hasn't a clue of prison life.
 
Your way of thinking is dated . As I pointed out with modern technology its near on impossible to convict the wrong person , and if we did so its unlikely new evidence is likely to pop up to give any hope of an appeal . An innocent man sent to prison for life when he has no gang affiliations will have years of misery and I can't see why suicides are irrelevant . Give them a choice of a humane way out after the first year or two of serving and you may find that some would take it. I am talking from experience rather then being a nosey do-gooder who hasn't a clue of prison life.
At some point you will execute an innocent person - therefore it’s a no from me.

The laws of maths and probability show that it will happen some day.

I actually think the death penalty is well outdated - so not sure why you think my thoughts are outdated.
 
At some point you will execute an innocent person - therefore it’s a no from me.

The laws of maths and probability show that it will happen some day.

I actually think the death penalty is well outdated - so not sure why you think my thoughts are outdated.
Ok ,I can't see any of us giving an inch . Therefore I think we will have to agree to disagree , but at least you have your wish that murderers belonging to a gang can go to prison and carry on inside what they do on the outside in relative safety . Bully and intimidate
 
My nephew Ben was murdered when he was 16. There are similarities with the murder of the little girl in Liverpool in that he was in his own home when intruders burst in.
At home were his younger sisters (who were upstairs getting ready for bed) and my mum, his grandma.
There were three assailants. All worked together at a KFC. One was 17 and the other two were in their twenties and thirties. They had been drinking that day and had hatched a plan to attack my nephew - because the 17 year old was jealous that Ben had a blossoming friendship with the 17 year olds former girlfriend. There was a history of threats against Ben. These were subsequently found by the police. These included many messages e.g one threat was that he would be found and attacked with a sword.
On the day of the murder they watched Ben’s house and eventually spotted him returning home. It was daylight as it was an early June evening.
They chased him to his house but he managed to get in and close the front door. Alas, this wasn’t enough to deter them, and they proceeded to break in through smashing in the front door. This was witnessed by the neighbours. They battered my mum for getting in their way and knocked her out cold. (Her face looked like a purple cabbage in the days after the attack).
They then beat Ben up using great violence. Three men one 16 year old boy. The 17 year old then went into the kitchen and got a knife and returned to fatally stabbed Ben multiple times whilst he was being held by the other two men. Despite receiving many stab wounds, Ben had no defensive wounds because he was prevented from defending himself.
The three men fled. My mum came round to find Ben bleeding to death. His last words were ‘Grandma - look at all this blood’. He died in his Grandmas arms. He never did make it to his GCSE exams which started the next day and which he’d been studying so hard for.
The three men were soon arrested. They weren’t the cleverest. They had been seen by neighbours. My mum could identify them. There was the threats found on the computer. There was other intel which soon identified them as chief suspects.
When they were arrested they all admitted what they’d done. There was physical evidence. There was dna, fingerprints, eye witness accounts, phone records, text messages between the men, the previous threats, the motive, their confessions.
Eventually one was given 10 years for murder and the other two with given a few years for ABH.
I’m not saying this is a case where a death penalty would have been appropriate. I try not to think too much about that. But it’s an example of a pathetically weak justice system. The sentences were far too lenient in my opinion. The impact on Ben’s mum and sisters, and my mum, are lifelong and devastating. That’s something they’ll never get over.
But the reason I’m using this case as an example for this thread is:-
1. all this talk of revenge being a dirty thing that somehow makes us less human. Well until you’ve had a close family member murdered it’s so easy to look at such events and be holier than though and play the decency card. It should be what the family want that primarily counts when it comes to justice, not what some far removed observers think.
2. This talk of not being 100% certain is ridiculous. There are cases where the evidence will be overwhelming and indisputable. As with Ben’s murder. There’s not a shadow of a doubt that the right people were convicted. There’s not a sane person that would think otherwise. Each case would have to be looked at on its merits. But to say we can’t be sure 100% is nonsense. Yes you can say that when theorising hypothetically, but in a real life case such as my nephews you can be absolutely 100% sure.
I’m horrified at reading your post Malced and so incredibly sorry that your nephew was murdered in such a brutal and sadistic manner; how utterly devastating it must have been for your family..
I have to say, the ‘punishment’ meted out was an abomination..
 
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Simple question to expose your real point of view……


If it was absolutely 100% guaranteed (it’s on cctv from many different angles and 1000 eye witnesses confirm it etc etc) that the person who gets convicted for the Murder of this innocent 9 year old girl is Guilty would you agree with him being executed?

I didn’t think you would. I think this “wrongly convicted people” line is bogus
It's not bogus at all, by making one conviction safer than others the system would be admitting that some people are convicted WITH reasonable doubt.
 
If you steal, hands cut off. Maybe not the the first time or less serious.
rape or you are the p word, dick cut off.
Kill, family decide your fate.
that will sort a lot of it out.
So what you want is Sharia Law?

I'll bear that in mind next time there are people on this board saying that the Muslims are barbaric and shouldn't be allowed in this country.
 
Ok ,I can't see any of us giving an inch . Therefore I think we will have to agree to disagree , but at least you have your wish that murderers belonging to a gang can go to prison and carry on inside what they do on the outside in relative safety . Bully and intimidate
Happy to agree to disagree and glad the law in the UK doesn’t allow state sponsored murder of at some point the innocent.
 
It's not bogus at all, by making one conviction safer than others the system would be admitting that some people are convicted WITH reasonable doubt.
Just playing Devil’s advocate, you could have two levels of conviction - beyond reasonable doubt, and beyond doubt?
 
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Just playing Devil’s advocate, you could have two levels of conviction - beyond reasonable doubt, and beyond doubt?
The problem is it brings into question any verdict of “reasonable doubt” as it shows you are not sure enough for “beyond doubt.”
 
Sometimes the police and the prosecution do not tell the truth and may even fabricate or plant evidence.
Sometimes witnesses tell lies
Sometimes juries are swayed by emotion and not application of the law
The adversarial system that we have may not be the best way to establish guilt or innocence (other countries do things differently some arguably better, some definitely worse)

All of the above are problematic for advocates of the death penalty and they all happen.
 
The problem is it brings into question any verdict of “reasonable doubt” as it shows you are not sure enough for “beyond doubt.”
I’m not sure it does, IMO, we’ve already got a system that doesn’t need ‘beyond doubt’ to convict, we don’t question every guilty verdict as it stands, so nothing changes for me.

As it happens, I’m against the death penalty for all the reasons you’ve already posted.
 
It’s not PC to like Kevin Spacey films anymore, but there’s a great one about the death penalty called The Life of David Gale.
I’d recommend it if I wouldn’t get slagged for it!
😁
 
I’m not sure it does, IMO, we’ve already got a system that doesn’t need ‘beyond doubt’ to convict, we don’t question every guilty verdict as it stands, so nothing changes for me.

As it happens, I’m against the death penalty for all the reasons you’ve already posted.
I appreciate it’s your opinion, but mine differs as opinions often do - who knows who is right!

Personally as I have stated before if you are found guilty of murder, life should mean life.
 
'Definitely Guilty' and 'Probably Guilty But We're Not 100% Sure'

Again there’s many clear cut 100% sure cases. There’s the terrorist that killed the police officer in London and was immediately overpowered. I struggle to see how there could be a miscarriage of justice by convicting the wrong person in this circumstance. It’s all too easy to pontificate about falsified evidence and fabricated cctv etc when talking hypothetically. Each real case would be looked at on its merits and the bar for a death penalty conviction would be incredibly high in terms of evidence.

Quite simply there’s some cases where the evidence isn’t at all in any doubt.
 
Again there’s many clear cut 100% sure cases. There’s the terrorist that killed the police officer in London and was immediately overpowered. I struggle to see how there could be a miscarriage of justice by convicting the wrong person in this circumstance. It’s all too easy to pontificate about falsified evidence and fabricated cctv etc when talking hypothetically. Each real case would be looked at on its merits and the bar for a death penalty conviction would be incredibly high in terms of evidence.

Quite simply there’s some cases where the evidence isn’t at all in any doubt.
So you'd execute everyone who kills someone, regardless of motive, method, context, as long as it was crystal clear it was them?
 
My nephew Ben was murdered when he was 16. There are similarities with the murder of the little girl in Liverpool in that he was in his own home when intruders burst in.
At home were his younger sisters (who were upstairs getting ready for bed) and my mum, his grandma.
There were three assailants. All worked together at a KFC. One was 17 and the other two were in their twenties and thirties. They had been drinking that day and had hatched a plan to attack my nephew - because the 17 year old was jealous that Ben had a blossoming friendship with the 17 year olds former girlfriend. There was a history of threats against Ben. These were subsequently found by the police. These included many messages e.g one threat was that he would be found and attacked with a sword.
On the day of the murder they watched Ben’s house and eventually spotted him returning home. It was daylight as it was an early June evening.
They chased him to his house but he managed to get in and close the front door. Alas, this wasn’t enough to deter them, and they proceeded to break in through smashing in the front door. This was witnessed by the neighbours. They battered my mum for getting in their way and knocked her out cold. (Her face looked like a purple cabbage in the days after the attack).
They then beat Ben up using great violence. Three men one 16 year old boy. The 17 year old then went into the kitchen and got a knife and returned to fatally stabbed Ben multiple times whilst he was being held by the other two men. Despite receiving many stab wounds, Ben had no defensive wounds because he was prevented from defending himself.
The three men fled. My mum came round to find Ben bleeding to death. His last words were ‘Grandma - look at all this blood’. He died in his Grandmas arms. He never did make it to his GCSE exams which started the next day and which he’d been studying so hard for.
The three men were soon arrested. They weren’t the cleverest. They had been seen by neighbours. My mum could identify them. There was the threats found on the computer. There was other intel which soon identified them as chief suspects.
When they were arrested they all admitted what they’d done. There was physical evidence. There was dna, fingerprints, eye witness accounts, phone records, text messages between the men, the previous threats, the motive, their confessions.
Eventually one was given 10 years for murder and the other two with given a few years for ABH.
I’m not saying this is a case where a death penalty would have been appropriate. I try not to think too much about that. But it’s an example of a pathetically weak justice system. The sentences were far too lenient in my opinion. The impact on Ben’s mum and sisters, and my mum, are lifelong and devastating. That’s something they’ll never get over.
But the reason I’m using this case as an example for this thread is:-
1. all this talk of revenge being a dirty thing that somehow makes us less human. Well until you’ve had a close family member murdered it’s so easy to look at such events and be holier than though and play the decency card. It should be what the family want that primarily counts when it comes to justice, not what some far removed observers think.
2. This talk of not being 100% certain is ridiculous. There are cases where the evidence will be overwhelming and indisputable. As with Ben’s murder. There’s not a shadow of a doubt that the right people were convicted. There’s not a sane person that would think otherwise. Each case would have to be looked at on its merits. But to say we can’t be sure 100% is nonsense. Yes you can say that when theorising hypothetically, but in a real life case such as my nephews you can be absolutely 100% sure.
Malced, a tear came to my eye reading that, I rarely read this part of the board but for what ever reason clicked on this thread. My missus was fairly friendly with Ben's mum when he was a toddler, as if memory serves they had worked together before Ben was born. Our son was born about a year after Ben, I remember one summer day on the prom when we'd bumped into her and Ben when he was about 4 or 5 and we all strolled down the prom chatting.

My wife was utterly heartbroken when she heard what had happened to Ben even though they probably hadn't seen each other in about a decade at that point.

I whole heartedly agree with your paragraphs summing it all up, I think I'm generally against the death penalty in principle, but the way we've experimented with the criminal 'justice' system over the last few decades has left the punishments up to that point a laughing stock and not really fit for purpose.

I imagine it's infuriating for people such as yourself to hear lazy arguments about a minuscule number of miscarriages of justice should dictate everything below the death penalty.


All the best to you and your family.
 
Again there’s many clear cut 100% sure cases. There’s the terrorist that killed the police officer in London and was immediately overpowered. I struggle to see how there could be a miscarriage of justice by convicting the wrong person in this circumstance. It’s all too easy to pontificate about falsified evidence and fabricated cctv etc when talking hypothetically. Each real case would be looked at on its merits and the bar for a death penalty conviction would be incredibly high in terms of evidence.

Quite simply there’s some cases where the evidence isn’t at all in any doubt.
Yeah, but the justice system falls down if it admits that some convictions are less safe than others, that's just the way it is I'm afraid, so if someone was found guilty of the same crime, regardless of evidence, the punishment should be equitable, this is how it is in the US where there's been many miscarriages, prisoner's reprieved on death row, reprieved too late...
 
Killing another person is wrong.

Wrong if it's done by an individual, and wrong if it's done by the State.
 
In life everybody says what suits themselves anyway. If a burglar so much as entered your house you would order them to be executed for example if you could. To the poster, Yes I am a bellend then. Crime pays in this life and it shouldn't.
 
I've done jury service twice. If I was an innocent man it would frighten me to death and if I were guilty I'd think it was a decent route to get off. The first time the quality of the jury was shocking, the second time a sensible bunch. An interesting experience but fraught with issues.
 
The State should not cheapen life by using execution as a punishment. It has also been shown time and again not to act as a deterent. We need to support the rule of law with a properly funded judiciary, an adequately funded, professional police force and meaningful social policies that value all citizens. We need a harmonious society where divides are minimised: rich from poor, North from South and black from white. A society where ghettos are opened up and wither away. Where the drugs peddled by gangs have few customers and where there is no culture of "not grassing" for the gangs to hide behind.

To change our country in that direction demands a lot of work. Reintroduction of the death penalty would turn us further away from such aspirations. It would be a backwards step.
You describe a Utopia...dont think we have it in us as human beings to achieve that unfortunately.
 
Malced, a tear came to my eye reading that, I rarely read this part of the board but for what ever reason clicked on this thread. My missus was fairly friendly with Ben's mum when he was a toddler, as if memory serves they had worked together before Ben was born. Our son was born about a year after Ben, I remember one summer day on the prom when we'd bumped into her and Ben when he was about 4 or 5 and we all strolled down the prom chatting.

My wife was utterly heartbroken when she heard what had happened to Ben even though they probably hadn't seen each other in about a decade at that point.

I whole heartedly agree with your paragraphs summing it all up, I think I'm generally against the death penalty in principle, but the way we've experimented with the criminal 'justice' system over the last few decades has left the punishments up to that point a laughing stock and not really fit for purpose.

I imagine it's infuriating for people such as yourself to hear lazy arguments about a minuscule number of miscarriages of justice should dictate everything below the death penalty.


All the best to you and your family.


Thanks for your kind and considered words. X
 
So you'd execute everyone who kills someone, regardless of motive, method, context, as long as it was crystal clear it was them?

No I didn’t say that. I said the most heinous crimes only. Such as killing a child or a police officer. I said each case would be on its own merits. But the death penalty would be on the table as an option.
There’s many things to consider such as mental health and other circumstances such as suffering many years of cruelty from a domestic abuser.
So no - I wouldn’t want every killer executed.
 
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