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Lost Seasider said:
The vast, vast, vast majority of cases came in from Italy, Spain and France, so that would've made precisely zero difference in the long run.

And no, we didn't know it, and we certainly weren't saying there should be a ban on flights from China.



The vast majority of cases came in from the community, so again zero difference, and contrary to popular belief, testing was done whenever possible.
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'We certainly weren't saying there should be a ban on flights from China'.

Yes we were, and eventually it did happen.
 
Wizaard said:
Hidden from them? They were there, as we all know.
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Critically, no minister was sanctioned for his attendance at them, so at the time they were there they were just about within the rules, it's what happened after the PM left that moved them from "necessary for work" into an outright breach of the regulations.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Critically, no minister was sanctioned for his attendance at them, so at the time they were there they were just about within the rules, it's what happened after the PM left that moved them from "necessary for work" into an outright breach of the regulations.
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Other than Johnson and Sunak fined, or did that not happen?
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
And I've highlighted how poorly Welsh Labour performed

You can understand why Wizaard is so anti government must be difficult being a civil servant working for the government with a gold plated pension who would have got paid thousands of pounds of furlough money during Covid

Maybe he wanted a longer lockdown like what Labour proposed so he would have got paid more money for doing fuck all
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Who knows what he wants.

What he seems to think is that every Covid death in England during the first year of the pandemic was Johnson's fault, but seems to have no idea what should've been done differently other than a handful of criticisms that would've had zero effect whatsoever.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Who knows what he wants.

What he seems to think is that every Covid death in England during the first year of the pandemic was Johnson's fault, but seems to have no idea what should've been done differently other than a handful of criticisms that would've had zero effect whatsoever.
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Its bizarre are critical the left are about Covid and lockdowns, especially when Labour wanted longer lockdowns

Reading and posting on the OT section this week I've come to the conclusion that most left wingers are blinkered and intolerant to other peoples opinions and views

There really isn't much difference between the far left and the far right
 
Both the by elections were won by about 1,000 votes so the two MPs will probably have a short time in parliament before both constituencies return to their usual conservative position
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Its bizarre are critical the left are about Covid and lockdowns, especially when Labour wanted longer lockdowns

Reading and posting on the OT section this week I've come to the conclusion that most left wingers are blinkered and intolerant to other peoples opinions and views

There really isn't much difference between the far left and the far right
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Leave it Phil, you can’t have a different opinion so no point arguing, it’s like the Danny DeVito quote from the film Matilda ‘I’m big, your small, I’m right, your wrong
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Its bizarre are critical the left are about Covid and lockdowns, especially when Labour wanted longer lockdowns

Reading and posting on the OT section this week I've come to the conclusion that most left wingers are blinkered and intolerant to other peoples opinions and views

There really isn't much difference between the far left and the far right
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What do you think about the reference in the Enquiry to Doctor Death?

Do you think it's fair on Wishi Washi Rishi?
 
Lost Seasider said:
I'm seeing a distinct lack of details of how Covid could've been tackled differently, bearing in mind that the various lockdown breaches were not sanctioned by ministers, and so far as we know were in fact hidden from them, and in any event they only became public knowledge after the second wave had passed.
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That again is not true, is it? It was said at the time and re iterated at the enquiry last week. Locking down earlier in the curve would have lead to fewer deaths and shorter lockdowns. It was and is very simple science, and would have cost us all a lot less too.

Secondly, the eat out to help out was utterly barking mad. It increased transmission, it would have been hugely cheaper to give those businesses a wedge of money, than deal with the massive increase in transmission and overwhelming the NHS.
 
Lost Seasider said:
The vast, vast, vast majority of cases came in from Italy, Spain and France, so that would've made precisely zero difference in the long run.

And no, we didn't know it, and we certainly weren't saying there should be a ban on flights from China.



The vast majority of cases came in from the community, so again zero difference, and contrary to popular belief, testing was done whenever possible.
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Again, not true, that was just the propaganda Hancock threw to the media after they had been caught out. We were hypersensitive to everything related to this at the time as my wife's mum was in a home with dementia. People were sent back from Hospital to that home without being tested, and it was an utter nightmare for the staff to cope.
 
Threepeaksphil said:
Both the by elections were won by about 1,000 votes so the two MPs will probably have a short time in parliament before both constituencies return to their usual conservative position
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That's probably true.

With large swings like there were on Thursday, the winner rarely holds the seat at the next General Election.

I think there are going to be some boundary changes though, so I'm not sure how that will affect things.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
That again is not true, is it? It was said at the time and re iterated at the enquiry last week. Locking down earlier in the curve would have lead to fewer deaths and shorter lockdowns. It was and is very simple science, and would have cost us all a lot less too.

Secondly, the eat out to help out was utterly barking mad. It increased transmission, it would have been hugely cheaper to give those businesses a wedge of money, than deal with the massive increase in transmission and overwhelming the NHS.
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Wales locked down earlier and had a longer lock down with more constraints yet still had considerably higher death rates than anywhere else in the UK

All under Labour and Mark Drakeford

Incompetence of the highest order

Many Welsh communities still haven't recovered with thousands of businesses going to the wall, Wales currently have longer NHS waiting times than any other UK Country

That's Labour for you
 
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Phil_bfc deux said:
Its bizarre are critical the left are about Covid and lockdowns, especially when Labour wanted longer lockdowns

Reading and posting on the OT section this week I've come to the conclusion that most left wingers are blinkered and intolerant to other peoples opinions and views

There really isn't much difference between the far left and the far right
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More rubbuish spouted as fact. Labour and the Governmnet experts wanted earlier and therefore shorter lockdowns. I presume you have not been following any of the experts at the COVID enquiry.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
More rubbuish spouted as fact. Labour and the Governmnet experts wanted earlier and therefore shorter lockdowns. I presume you have not been following any of the experts at the COVID enquiry.
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I remember Starmer criticising the government for coming out of the lockdown

I can remember it like yesterday and I had to live through Welsh Labours handling of Covid which was nothing short of incompetent
 
Tangerinemoss said:
That again is not true, is it? It was said at the time and re iterated at the enquiry last week. Locking down earlier in the curve would have lead to fewer deaths and shorter lockdowns. It was and is very simple science, and would have cost us all a lot less too.

Secondly, the eat out to help out was utterly barking mad. It increased transmission, it would have been hugely cheaper to give those businesses a wedge of money, than deal with the massive increase in transmission and overwhelming the NHS.
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All of Rishi's clangers are now reverberating through the Enquiry.

The billions wasted on payments and" loans" to fictitious companies, and the disaster of the eat out scheme.

He should be personally held to account. He nearly broke his neck trampling over people to get filmed giving out largesse. Now he should pay.
 
If we use the internationally-recognised system for adjusting for age, what's called an age standardised mortality figure, things are very different. This method creates a comparable figure to show how many deaths a country would have had if it had the same percentage of people in each age group.

This gives these figures:

  • England - 217.1 deaths per 100,000 people
  • Wales - 212.4
  • Scotland - 173.8
  • Northern Ireland - 164.7
Wales has an older population, so would have expected higher mortality. KInd of blows the Wales Labour was shxt argument out of the water. Also seems to show Scotland and NI did a significantly better job than England, somewhat surprisingly, in my view.
 
foggy said:
A very confused, shoddily written article. It gives the same number for England under 'Deaths with COVID on the death certificate' and 'Deaths within 28 days of a positive test'. These are two different things and they have clearly given incorrect numbers.
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So you know better and get your info from the New York times

Nice one ....

You can also get the info from various BBC articles

Trust me on this one I lived through it in Wales
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
So you know better and get your info from the New York times

Nice one ....

You can also get the info from various BBC articles

Trust me on this one I lived through it in Wales
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Well I read the article you sent and it uses the same figure twice for two different things
 
foggy said:
Well I read the article you sent and it uses the same figure twice for two different things
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Do some more research if you are that bothered

I'm not really arsed about arguing over figures

My point is that Labour completely fucked up Covid in Wales

BBC link with different figures but still has Wales higher than England

www.bbc.co.uk

Covid in Wales: What do the stats tell us? - BBC News

Analysis of the past three years, and what are the latest figures telling us?
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
I could have managed Covid better than Boris and his cronies.

When Labour win the GE in August 24, it will be a protest vote and not just about the pandemic.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Do some more research if you are that bothered

I'm not really arsed about arguing over figures

My point is that Labour completely fucked up Covid in Wales

BBC link with different figures but still has Wales higher than England

www.bbc.co.uk

Covid in Wales: What do the stats tell us? - BBC News

Analysis of the past three years, and what are the latest figures telling us?
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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"The age-standardised mortality rate due to Covid - with Covid the underlying cause of death - is slightly higher in England than in Wales"

Thanks 👍
 
Tangerinemoss said:
That again is not true, is it? It was said at the time and re iterated at the enquiry last week. Locking down earlier in the curve would have lead to fewer deaths and shorter lockdowns. It was and is very simple science, and would have cost us all a lot less too.
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Perhaps, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, although some might dispute that, but on what grounds would you, as PM, have overridden the advice of the CSA and CMO?


Tangerinemoss said:
Secondly, the eat out to help out was utterly barking mad. It increased transmission, it would have been hugely cheaper to give those businesses a wedge of money, than deal with the massive increase in transmission and overwhelming the NHS.
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That was one month, August 2020, which started out with 8,000 cases per day, and ended with 4,000 cases per day, in fact we didn't see any kind of up tick in case numbers until the end of September, so where you get the idea that it led to a "massive increase in transmission", I do not know.

In any event, even if it had increased transmission, it was actually desirable to have some cases in the summer, because that then reduces the case numbers in the winter, when the pressure on the NHS is highest.
 
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Phil_bfc deux said:
So you are blaming Johnson for Covid

Even by your low standards that's utterly ridiculous

You do realise that the death rates per 100,000 in Wales under a Labour government were higher than England under the Conservative government
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Your memory seems to be letting you down. Despite reliable evidence to the contrary, Johnson was sceptical about the seriousness and spread of Covid, and said it was just like any other virus. He was absent from several initial Cobra meetings (allegedly too busy writing his book)! He attended a rugby game at Twickenham and was seen shaking hands and generally being his pathetic self with others around him. He visited hospitals and bragged about shaking hands with patients suffering from the virus.
He was the Prime Minister who sanctioned Hancock to move patients out of hospitals into care homes, without testing.
I could go on, but this will all come out in the report in due course.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Again, not true, that was just the propaganda Hancock threw to the media after they had been caught out. We were hypersensitive to everything related to this at the time as my wife's mum was in a home with dementia. People were sent back from Hospital to that home without being tested, and it was an utter nightmare for the staff to cope.
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It was a study done by PHE after then event that came to that conclusion, not Hancock himself, and it does make a kind of logical sense, the vast majority of people coming into a care home are not coming in from hospital, they're coming in from the community, visitors at first, carers and workers all along, and they're coming and going every day.

In any event, there was no alternative, the tests did not exist (thanks PHE), they couldn't stay in hospital, there was nowhere else for them to go.
 
Wizaard said:
'We certainly weren't saying there should be a ban on flights from China'.

Yes we were, and eventually it did happen.
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You know there's a search function on this site, don't you?

The FCO advised against all non-essential travel to China on 28 January.

If you search for "China", the first reference I can find that might possibly be interpreted as a call for a flight ban is this one here: Nuttal wins, on 9 March.

If you search for flight you'll find this: Matesrates, which is the first explicit call for border controls that I can see, on 14 March.

If you search for the two terms together, you'll find no relevant results before 23 March.


So, as ever, you are lying.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Perhaps, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, although some might dispute that, but on what grounds would you, as PM, have overridden the advice of the CSA and CMO?



That was one month, August 2020, which started out with 8,000 cases per day, and ended with 4,000 cases per day, in fact we didn't see any kind of up tick in case numbers until the end of September, so where you get the idea that it led to a "massive increase in transmission", I do not know.

In any event, even if it had increased transmission, it was actually desirable to have some cases in the summer, because that then reduces the case numbers in the winter, when the pressure on the NHS is highest.
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The evidence given this week was that he did indeed ignore the expert advice, from the experts themselves.
Everyone else in the country knows this to be true, look at the figures after thi, leading to yet another lock down a month after the experts said it was necessary. Scotland locked down early and then did not have to on one England lockdown that year.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Perhaps, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, although some might dispute that, but on what grounds would you, as PM, have overridden the advice of the CSA and CMO?



That was one month, August 2020, which started out with 8,000 cases per day, and ended with 4,000 cases per day, in fact we didn't see any kind of up tick in case numbers until the end of September, so where you get the idea that it led to a "massive increase in transmission", I do not know.

In any event, even if it had increased transmission, it was actually desirable to have some cases in the summer, because that then reduces the case numbers in the winter, when the pressure on the NHS is highest.
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Wrong again according to the medics. They were hoping to hit the backlog of ordinary cases before winter hit, as it was this didn’t happen , leading to even bigger backlog
 
Lost Seasider said:
It was a study done by PHE after then event that came to that conclusion, not Hancock himself, and it does make a kind of logical sense, the vast majority of people coming into a care home are not coming in from hospital, they're coming in from the community, visitors at first, carers and workers all along, and they're coming and going every day.

In any event, there was no alternative, the tests did not exist (thanks PHE), they couldn't stay in hospital, there was nowhere else for them to go.
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So did they test or not, you said they did ?
 
Tangerinemoss said:
The evidence given this week was that he did indeed ignore the expert advice, from the experts themselves.
Everyone else in the country knows this to be true, look at the figures after thi, leading to yet another lock down a month after the experts said it was necessary. Scotland locked down early and then did not have to on one England lockdown that year.
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I've read the minutes of every SAGE meeting in 2020, particularly in the run-up to the first lockdown, and the government's actions mirror those closely.

The only exception that has been suggested was the circuit breaker lockdown, but there was no SAGE consensus on that, hence why there was a recommendation that it should be considered, and likely the only reason Wales/Scotland went for one was that England decided not to, and it's far from clear what effect, if any, they had in the long run.

In terms of the enquiry, there were lots of different experts with different opinions, so there will obviously be experts whose advice wasn't followed, that doesn't mean the government wasn't following expert advice when it made its decisions.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Wrong again according to the medics. They were hoping to hit the backlog of ordinary cases before winter hit, as it was this didn’t happen , leading to even bigger backlog
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Both statements can be true at the same time, especially if the extra cases are concentrated in non-vulnerable groups, and the scheme coincided with the lowest level of hospital admissions in the entire pandemic, so whatever the reason the backlog didn't clear, it wasn't down to eat-out to help out.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
So did they test or not, you said they did ?
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https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/

NHS Providers says: “Trusts were already testing patients and care home residents with symptoms wherever testing capacity allowed, but this capacity was not reliably and consistently available across the country before mid-April.”

However, Covid-19 can be spread by people without symptoms. Trusts said that, for a few days following 17 March, “small numbers of asymptomatic Covid-19 patients may have been discharged into care homes.”

Several trusts say they stopped that quickly and moved to a system whereby all discharges to care homes, regardless of symptoms were tested and isolated within care homes pending their test results.

So while the guidance didn’t require for patients discharged into care homes to be tested until 15 April, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t happening. The testimony from NHS trusts seems to be that very few people discharged into care homes were reintroduced to the care home population without being tested.


Anyway, the big question is what would you have done differently? Could you have found some additional testing capacity, if so, then where? Would you have kept them in hospital indefinitely? Simply saying "don't send them out without a test" isn't an answer.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Both statements can be true at the same time, especially if the extra cases are concentrated in non-vulnerable groups, and the scheme coincided with the lowest level of hospital admissions in the entire pandemic, so whatever the reason the backlog didn't clear, it wasn't down to eat-out to help out.
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I much prefer the opinion of the expert who was on this week saying that it did, to some anonymous Tory Apologist
 
tangerine_neil said:
Common sense is always the answer.
Unless you prefer nonsense
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Yeah, great, but it doesn't tell us what you'd have done differently, so it isn't an answer to my question.

So, to be specific, what actions/policies/legislation/decisions would you have made/enacted, that the government did not, and likewise, were there any that you would not?
 
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