JJpool
Well-known member
Most are just discussing the possibilities aren't they?
East stand
- Thread starter Northstandsinger
- Start date
seasideone
Well-known member
Kids left home years ago and you can only have so many friends.
The point is we don’t need a large stadium - we just need a full one that’s bouncing - and at our level I would personally be happy with 16k - 20k where all of it is useable, which would also cover us for the Championship.
I’ll worry about the prem when we get there!
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LA1 Seasider
Well-known member
If there’s any truth in this I’d be incredibly dissapointed and would honestly question the ambition of the owner to truly set the club up for the future.
Anything short of 18000 useable seats after segregation would be poor. Not aiming for 20,000 + is a massive missed opportunity.
Populations continue to grow and Blackpool no longer has the transient population - made up of out of towners - it once did. The club should be looking to actively grow the fanbase with short, medium and long term goals in mind. Most large business have plans for 20+ years and a football should absolutely be doing that
Anything short of 18000 useable seats after segregation would be poor. Not aiming for 20,000 + is a massive missed opportunity.
Populations continue to grow and Blackpool no longer has the transient population - made up of out of towners - it once did. The club should be looking to actively grow the fanbase with short, medium and long term goals in mind. Most large business have plans for 20+ years and a football should absolutely be doing that
Insider
Well-known member
But now everyone has firesticks.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Where has this come from, and can we see some evidence that it is true. Until then I'll hold my counsel.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Mark_GT
Well-known member
This is where I would see it given the choice. Always leave yourself somewhere to go. One other thing I've wondered about is, is there any scope to build up and out in the North? Some of the existing fabric is pretty dilapidated (thanks Owen
), the concourses could be enlarged for better revenue and comfort, and it is a part of the whole footprint where there is potential space to build out.
poolseasider
Well-known member
That's actually a valid point in years to come when it's inevitable that you'll legally be able to watch any live match on a 60 inch 8k TV or on devices.
Will the appetite be there for some to go?
TangerinePeel
Well-known member
Just responding to what the OP has said, and giving my opinion on what I reckon the East should hold.
Not sure if there is any truth in what they've said, I've seen the same thing said on a whatsapp group I'm in - I assumed this was from the meeting last night. Probably just a rumour if not.
seasideone
Well-known member
Blackpool FC is not a large business though, it’s actually quite small with limited resources.
Yes, the likes of Shell will have a business plan for any occasion but we are not Shell.
Probably closer to a couple of local Tesco shops added together, and I don’t mean the superstores!
PNENIL
Well-known member
That's up to the owner to sort out and find a way.
This is a generational thing. It affects where we go as a club for our children and grandchildren and beyond. If it's worth doing then do it properly. Don't fudge it and have all that upheaval for something that we're no better off capacity wise. Don't limit us. I don't think a 20 k stadium for a club our size is asking for the world.
JJpool
Well-known member
We've also grown since then, look at the relative league 1 attendances then and now and imagine if we went on the same best trip, meteoric rise now.
Those attendances were under other limiting factors, the tinpot way in which we were run being 1 example.
JJpool
Well-known member
Most aren't asking for anything more than that are they?
seasideone
Well-known member
I’d be happy with 16k though, most appear to want the upper end of what I quoted.
Simonized
Well-known member
Just because we are building where the away fans are currently housed doesn't mean they have to be there in the new stand.
I would give the South up and convert the shop back to a bar for them and move the shop back to its old location with the community trust having a purpose built into the new plans.
Double park their coaches behind the south and hop on a coach after the match turn left and out of trouble they go.
You then upgrade the NE corner into a massive fan zone that can serve both the north and east food and drink to take pressure off the north facilities.
See if Lancs plod can fuck that up as I don't think we would want to give the north up.
Lewis_Winthorpe
Well-known member
His point is we didn't sell out the home ends for some games. West Brom, Wolves and Birmingham are 3 I can think of from the top of my head
bollieboy
Well-known member
Easily embarrassed, aren't you ?
LA1 Seasider
Well-known member
It’s certainly not a small one.
It’s likely at the upper end of what’s considered an SME.
But what’s key is it’s a nationally significant business with a significant impact and interest in the community. It doesn’t need to operate like a collective of corner shops. It needs to operate like a business which will still be here in many generations times.
Either way - if you’re conducting a significant piece of capital investment with a lifespan of 30+ years - they need to be thinking about its lifetime useage.
poolseasider
Well-known member
And I'd give away fans the North very easy to Police and put coaches outside.
LA1 Seasider
Well-known member
Well as a town it’s no longer attracting people to work and live as it did in the mid 1900’s and therefore each generation which is born has less of a connection to the city / town where there relatives originated.
In theory Blackpool is a town full of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation economic migrants and the connection to their origin will lessen and the connection to their home will grow.
bollieboy
Well-known member
For info there are just over 16,871 seats in current stadium though safety certificate is I believe for around 16,000 due to persistent standing/etc.
East Stand can hold about 4,800 but is limited to around 4,300 due to persistent standing/etc . If tickets are sold on an unrestricted seating basis (ie no allocated seat number) then capacity is reduced by another 10 % (ie down to approx 3,900).
East Stand can hold about 4,800 but is limited to around 4,300 due to persistent standing/etc . If tickets are sold on an unrestricted seating basis (ie no allocated seat number) then capacity is reduced by another 10 % (ie down to approx 3,900).
Trouble is if nobody goes football dies. The fans make the game what it is.
AllTheBoysAreCheerin'
Well-known member
The south has an even smaller capacity than the current away section and away fans exiting at the south end is problematic due to those not on coaches wanting to head north towards town. The only real solution to the problems is the one that nobody really wants and that's give the North Stand to away fans.
seasideone
Well-known member
It’s nowhere near the upper end for an SME.
You tend to exit SME status with more than 250 staff or generally £50m turnover (there are other definitions but that’s generally it).
BFC has about 100 staff and according to the last accounts turned over £15.3m
That’s small fry in the big world.
Regarding Capital investment they will be looking at the future, with a probability that what they are going to build would be fine for Championship football, and if by some miracle we reach the Prem - it’s all irrelevant anyway as gate receipts are such a small percentage it makes very little difference.
Ps the comparison to corner shops is to show how small BFC actually is.
The big Premier League Clubs build out or look to build out their capacity because they have filled their existing capacity - Arenal, Spurs, United, Liverpool etc etc
For me, the club should grow the capacity if it has some visibility on using it for a high percentage of the time. The most recent data point we have on capacity usage is based around the last two seasons in The Championship. If memory serves me correct, we even struggled to fill the ground for the two Preston games and definitely didn't for any others. Maybe there were some games where if we had the extra capacity we could've housed more away fans but then we would start to lose home advantage. There was much discussion around this last season when we gave a few clubs the whole of the East.
So, if we can't fill the current stadium in The Championship, when are we going to fill it? I guess the answer is if we are in The Premier League. We've been in the top division of English football once in the last 50+ years! To build a big sparkly new stand for regular use based on a 1 in 50 year occurrence is madness!
We only have to look around locally to see the white elephant stadia at Wigan and Blackburn that were only filled in the Prem years or Deepdale that was built for The Knobbers hope of Prem football. Those stadiums are half empty but still need maintaining and undoubtedly contribute to the shocking losses that those three clubs run at year in, year out. Losses that cannot be sustainable over the long-term
Furthermore, it is becoming more and more accessible to watched televised games which undoubtedly impacts live attendances. The upside to television though is that clubs in The Prem get shitloads of money. If Blackpool were to get there again, that TV money would dwarf the gate receipts. So, if we do get to The Prem, the clubs finances would be materially improved without need of a larger stadium as has been the case for the likes of Bournemouth, Luton and Brentford.
And then cost. A 5,000 seat stand would cost at a guess 12-15m quid. That's probably in the same ballpark as the value of the club! It makes no financial sense, whatsoever to spend that amount of money on a stand that will barely ever be used and only gets properly used in The Prem where the club should be rolling in it anyway from TV money.
I'd much rather have a smaller, fuller stadium where tickets were highly prized and the club made full use of the resale function as the number of empty seats at times from season ticket holders is ridiculous.
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LA1 Seasider
Well-known member
Whether it’s an SME or not is irrelevant. We’re not talking about conglomerates we’re talking about a business which is the pillar of a community and impacts thousands of people within a very small area. It’s imperative the club therefore plans and behaves relative to its unique set of circumstances.
seasideone
Well-known member
Whether it’s an SME or not IS relevant as it doesn’t have the resources of larger business - I’ll put it another way - the cash to do everything or most things it wants.
You want the club to blow loads of money on a stand the size it simply doesn’t need - it is madness
You are contradicting yourself, as that is exactly what it SHOULDN’T do, so it can use those funds more wisely on the squad and helping the community.
onlyonepool
Well-known member
But that is Karl Oyston logic to suggest you have to sell out every game before you do something about it. We could in fact have very nearly guaranteed a complete sell out of the home ends. I was in the club shop buying away tickets with staff answering phones to people enquiring about season tickets. They were having to be put on waiting lists as the club by the rules had to keep a percentage available for matchday sales.
They said there were around 1700 on that list. Obviously some like now wouldn't turn up every game but would be included in the attendance.
They are just buying the west side of Henry Street for the stand development and I doubt that they would need all of that for a stand of only 3600. The exception would be if they are putting other things in the stand
SMB_BFC
Well-known member
That was what I thought.
So if we were to mirror the West stand, which is 3600-3700 seats, with media suites where the boxes would be in the west, that would, looking at google maps, fill a good chunk of that area I think.
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BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
You are looking at this in an arse about tit kind of way..
Firstly.. Blackpool FC has done two significant stadium alterations of note (excluding Temporary Stand) in the time I can remember... Both of those developments have resulted in a step change (increase) in the attendances. Both times we heard exactly the same kind of nonsense spouted about the need to fill the stadium regularly first... It will never happen...
Your attendances in the Championship will pretty much always average at a certain level of your capacity. That's just how it is, however typically speaking that percentage tends to remain constant (notwithstanding size of catchment).. I can't recall what it was now, but maybe it was something like a typical championship club might average 75 - 80% of capacity... One might assume that by increasing the capacity that would have the knock on effect of reducing the percentage, but in reality that isn't the case... Essentially by limiting the peak capacity you also limit the average capacity as in essence only 75-80% of those who you might attract to your once in 10-20 year fixture will attend regularly.... However fail to be able to accommodate them for that one off game or fail to show the kind of ambition that drives fans on the periphery to feel motivated to support the club and you'll reap the rewards of your own lack of ambition and foresight..... Ultimately people (beyond the bare minumum) are only going to be motivated to support this Club if they feel it is a Club that actually has some ambition... As things stand Blackpool FC has a 'Treading Water' feel about the place... Whether it's on the pitch, with regard to these development plans or simply in the way it communicates with the public.... That's not going to attract fans I'm afraid... So to my mind... If 3,600 is where we are at... I'd just spruce up the Temporary Stand and not even bother, because its a waste of money.
We already have filled the current stadium when we were in the Championship (2014 was the last time) and that happened under a regime that was widely hated in the town. Since that time we have lost a generation of fans that needed to be rebuilt... That's a whole generation who just don't get the Preston North End rivalry... Blackpool could easily drum up 15-16000 home fans in a local Derby Game, but it's going to take time and the will to build and regain the trust of the community.... To expect that to simply happen overnight, when thousands have completely cut themselves off is naïve in the extreme.
I think for many existing fans the East Stand is going to be a major line in the sand really.... I think it's also a way to make a massive statement about the future ambitions of the Club to the Town as a whole. As such this has the potential to really create a massive buzz in the Town and to gain 2-3000 extra home fans in the right circumstances. A small development of 3600 would show a real lack of ambition and I think for many it would be a final straw.... Fans like myself have probably pinned our last hopes for having a proper football club on this most recent change of ownership and frankly if we simply get (yet another) half measures type approach, I think that many will just thrown in the towel....
Go Big or Go Home would be my advice.... I genuinely think that we'll lose a whole bunch of our existing fanbase if we get this decision wrong....
onlyonepool
Well-known member
Spot on
Jdseacidre81
Well-known member
Unbelievable if true. Going backwards, the east doesn't currently house over 5k. It's between 4600/5k. For it to reach 20k would need an 8k seater stand. 6k probably be about right but I think then you could put the north west for the away fans so they're straight out onto the coach park or into town. Have the main entrance, dugouts changing rooms in the new East.
LA1 Seasider
Well-known member
I wholly disagree.Whether it’s an SME or not IS relevant as it doesn’t have the resources of larger business - I’ll put it another way - the cash to do everything or most things it wants.
You want the club to blow loads of money on a stand the size it simply doesn’t need - it is madness
You are contradicting yourself, as that is exactly what it SHOULDN’T do, so it can use those funds more wisely on the squad and helping the community.
This club is more than capable of drawing home attendances right now of between 13-14000 fans. We’re also capable of attracting away attendances of 4000+ on a regular basis. 6000+ could be achieved on a fairly frequent level in the Championship.
Selling the final 5% or so tickets at any venue is difficult due to a natural wastage which comes from single seats etc.
Blackpool FC requires an 18000 seat stadium in the Championship or else were regularly turning paying fans away.
Three_Piers
Well-known member
Yep. A lot of shortsighted fans. I just hope Sadler has more ambitious plans. I don't understand why people would want to limit our capacity to 15,000. It makes no sense whatsoever. League One attitude. If it comes down to cost and he can't afford it then fine tell us. But aren't we getting a huge helping hand from the council?
I don't have the time to write another long missive to address all of your points so will limit myself.
I don't think that ambition is measured by stadium capacity and I don't think that an extra few thousand on capacity would make us a "proper club", as I think thay we already are one.
You talk about losing the fanbase if they get the decision wrong. Didn't I read the other day that you had spent this season watching boxsets rather than attending games? If so, it sounds like the club may've lost you regardless as to what they decide with the new stand.
Seainsea
Well-known member
This is the option I would pursue as well. Build a fairly low cost East which compliments the rest of the ground but is primarily for away fans with its own access, parking and facilities. To add extra capacity extend the Kop upwards and outwards with an extra tier this would facilitate adding a larger concourse etc.This is where I would see it given the choice. Always leave yourself somewhere to go. One other thing I've wondered about is, is there any scope to build up and out in the North? Some of the existing fabric is pretty dilapidated (thanks Owen
fcblackpool
Well-known member
The west holds more than that, something like 5000 including hospies.
seasideone
Well-known member
How often have we had 13-14000 home fans since the Oystons went, or if the ground cannot hold that - how many times have we sold out the home end and how many?
Probably best listing the games as well so
It can be verified!
I think that we need to actually see what the club's plans are. They can't submit a detailed planning application until the council has acquired the properties on Henry Street. And the whole Revoe sports development is tied to the grant funding the Council has received.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
How DO you think that ambition is measured then ?
I mean if a stadium that has already shown itself to be limiting in our recent history is to be reduced in size… What message do you think that conveys?
It certainly doesn’t give the impression of a Club that has ambitions to develop. It very much gives the impression of an ‘essential maintenance only’ approach. Hardly the kind of bold and ambitious ‘build it and they will come’ approach and hardly something that’s going to motivate people to get up off their arses and attend a game of local football , rather than attaching themselves to a successful premier team of choice and being lost forever.
I have a season ticket and attend games home and away. That said, like many other football fans, if the ambitions of the club don’t match my own, then I’ll become increasingly apathetic (it’s inevitable).
Eternaloptimist
Well-known member
Chunky, I always thought that when the new stadium was built it could hold 16k with a further option to cantilever 2 of the stands to take it to a 20k capacity
Don’t know how correct that is but I’m sure I read about it back in the day
seasideone
Well-known member
You say we are getting a huge helping hand from the council.
Do you know how much it is?
Three_Piers
Well-known member
No. But I assume it's sizeable given that priority number one has gone from the training ground to the East Stand since the Council grant was announced.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
The only way to get 13-14000 regular home fans is to have a decent stadium that can comfortably accommodate 16-17,000 home fans (well either that or get to the Premier League).
AllTheBoysAreCheerin'
Well-known member
I suspect whoever came up with the 3,600 size simply looked at the capacity of the west stand and assumed the east would be the same. The fact is, the stand will not have a hospitality balcony behind it and will therefore house around a thousand more than the west stand. There are current no plans, to my knowlege, to build a NE stand.
The below table is from wiki so may not be 100% accurate but it's near enough.
The below table is from wiki so may not be 100% accurate but it's near enough.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Since the Blessed Margaret made it easy to move and still claim benefits, the town has seen a constant stream of life's unfortunates lured by the bright lights and childhood memories. The reality is somewhat different, but maybe its better in a dodgy flat in Blackpool than a back street of East Lancashire of further afield.