England Cricket team

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fcblackpool

Well-known member
I see that this starting XI contains 9 public/private schoolboys, which is either a record or the most in recent times.

Whilst it's good to see the billions spent on grass roots cricket in poorer areas pay off, can you name the 2 'normal not Yah' players?
 
Happychap said:
Jimmy Anderson and Chris Woakes.
How many non public schools play cricket these days? Very sad.
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This is the problem. Primary schools play a bit of kwik cricket or something but secondary schools have neither the time nor resources to play cricket properly. Unless kids get to a cricket club (and I live quite close to Lancaster cricket club which does a great job getting working class kids playing) they simply won't play.

Combined with the fact it's no longer on terrestrial TV and it's just not happening for the majority of kids.

I was in Sedbergh this weekend gone and their sports facilities are probably better than Blackpool Cricket club and Football Club combined and I'm not exaggerating.
 
It`s certainly true that private/public schools have much better facilities and play a lot more cricket than state schools.

It`s also true though that clubs offer much more opportunity these days than when I was a youngster for juniors certainly here in Yorkshire with plenty of nets and coaching which enabled my son to play junior cricket for the local club from the age of 8, represent Sheffield age groups from the age of ten onwards and later on both Yorkshire and subsequently Lancs. junior teams and later was leading scorer for Cumberland the year they were national Minor Counties champions which clearly demonstrates that the opportunities for youngsters to play cricket and advance through their local clubs and upwards as far as their ability allows are certainly there.
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
It`s certainly true that private/public schools have much better facilities and play a lot more cricket than state schools.

It`s also true though that clubs offer much more opportunity these days than when I was a youngster for juniors certainly here in Yorkshire with plenty of nets and coaching which enabled my son to play junior cricket for the local club from the age of 8, represent Sheffield age groups from the age of ten onwards and later on both Yorkshire and subsequently Lancs. junior teams and later was leading scorer for Cumberland the year they were national Minor Counties champions which clearly demonstrates that the opportunities for youngsters to play cricket and advance through their local clubs and upwards as far as their ability allows are certainly there.
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My own thinking has always been that firstly there is a bias to southern based players, and secondly, if a decision between playing x or y the public school wins. The two aren't mutually independent.
 
I don`t agree that there is bias against northern based players.Lancashire and Yorkshire players have always been given opportunities to perform at the highest level when their county performances have justified some recognition.

I also think that across the country England selection is based purely on performance and any suggestions otherwise are down more to chips on northern shoulders.
 
I cannot disagree with you more strongly. England cricket is an over elite sport at lower levels and even more so at England level.

My pound for pound comparison is reality. Has been ever since I have ever touched a cricket ball.
 
So which players from Lancs or Yorks, which are regarded as the main northern counties over the years, do you think have been ignored by the England selectors who should have been selected?
 
1950`spoolfan said:
So which players from Lancs or Yorks, which are regarded as the main northern counties over the years, do you think have been ignored by the England selectors who should have been selected?
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I think Fairbrother, Peter Martin and Ian Austin shouldve won more caps. Couldn't give a hoot about Yaaaaaarkshire!
 
That's a question which would take hours to answer.

Wasn't Fowler dropped after a ton? Hayes too?

I still maintain that if you are a posh kid and southern you'll get picked ahead of a sec mod, northern kid. Unless there is a real need and/or a real brilliance (except Flintoff ).
 
Since the war Lancs have had 39 out of a total of 384 players who have played for England so that is about twice the average number per the 18 counties that have played in that time.Virtually none of them were privately educated certainly not southern nor posh.

Hayes got a century in his first Test but after 9 appearances and a string of failures was averaging just 15 when he was dropped.

Fowler did quite well averaging 35 but only lost his place due to the return of the rebel tourists including opener Gooch.

Fairbrother played plenty of one day games for England and did well but in Test cricket averaged a mere 15.

Chapple was unlucky to play in the era of Anderson Broad and others.

Hegg,a decent county keeper/batsman was never more than briefly a second string keeper for England with the likes of Alex Stewart and Jack Russell available.

Martin did a fair job with a Test bowling average of 35 and played 8 Tests which was probably about right for his capabilities.

Austin did a great job as an all rounder in limited over cricket for Lancs but wasn`t really ever up to Test standard.A million miles away from Flintoff`s level for example who was a great player but should never have been made England captain ahead of Strauss. Northern bias perhaps?
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
Since the war Lancs have had 39 out of a total of 384 players who have played for England so that is about twice the average number per the 18 counties that have played in that time.Virtually none of them were privately educated nor southern nor posh.

Hayes got a century in his first Test but after 9 appearances and a string of failures was averaging just 15 when he was dropped.Fowler did quite well averaging 35 but only lost his place due to the return of the rebel tourists including opener Gooch.

Fairbrother played plenty of one day games for England and did well but in Test cricket averaged a mere 15.

Chapple was unlucky to play in the era of Anderson Broad and others.

Hegg,a decent county keeper/batsman was never more than briefly a second string keeper for England with the likes of Alex Stewart and Jack Russell available.

Martin did a fair job with a Test bowling average of 35, played 8 Tests which was about right for his capabilities.


Austin did a great job as an all rounder in limited over cricket for Lancs but wasn`t really ever up to Test standard.A million miles away from Flintoff`s level for example who was a great player but should never have been made England captain ahead of Strauss. Northern bias perhaps?
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Not to forget Mike Watkinson, Bolton born and bred and pretended to be an off spinner just to get picked for England.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
So which players from Lancs or Yorks, which are regarded as the main northern counties over the years, do you think have been ignored by the England selectors who should have been selected?
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Good question. Glenn Chapple should have been given a go in English conditions and before him Peter Lee and Jack Simmons.
 
What England need is a big money T20 competition like India and Australia.

Get rid of all this public schoolboy "test cricket is everything" and get girls and boys on parks SMACKING it, and on the flips side girls and boys learning to be able to bowl "clever".

For over a century batters and bowlers are pigeonholed into brackets. Of course they will excel in one particular area but why is it SO restrictive? Furthermore every top 4 batsman should be able to put in a stint of slow or medium pace bowling and should train as thus.

And I don't mean lobbing dollies down the track a la Atherton or Root.

IF players diversify from playing T20 then it may, in the long term, keep the likes of County Championship and Test Cricket alive for training purposes and for the older generations not willing to change into the modern form of the game to go along to moan at.

Putting the longer format of Cricket into smaller, local grounds may also assist. This would free up the larger grounds so that people can enjoy a shorter time in which they see a plethora of boundaries / entertainment and also increase attendances in smaller grounds i.e. pensioners

T20 is already the life and blood of modern cricket. It fills out huge cricket arenas around the world. It pays for all other forms of cricket.

It is the best and most natural form of cricket and the most likely, in England, to take the game back from the public schools and let boys and girls have a smash - or a clever bowl.

Factamundo.
 
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Allmodcons said:
Good question. Glenn Chapple should have been given a go in English conditions and before him Peter Lee and Jack Simmons.
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As I said above Chapple was unlucky that there were many NORTHERN and Midlands pace bowlers Such as Anderson Broad Harmison,Hoggard doing well for Englandduring his time.I am sure that at least in this country he would have done well for England if given the chance.

Peter Lee took many wickets for Lancs at a medium quick pace but there were plenty of that type and often quicker than him in that era.

Flat Jack did great service for Lancs and was perhaps renowned more for his economy than as a big spinner of the ball.When we used to watch him we used to call him 9 10 Jack as he often seemed to get the last 3 out. Highly regarded as he certainly was at Lancy I don`t think anyone really expected him to play for England as a leading spinner.
 
Everyone to their own Mac but there is so much more to Test cricket,so many more quirks and subtleties, variations and swings and roundabouts in Test cricket than in the instant form of the game and there is a better balance between bat and ball.

I know I will never convince and you won`t convince me although I do love all forms of cricket we`ll have to agree to differ on this one I`m afraid.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
As I said above Chapple was unlucky that there were many NORTHERN and Midlands pace bowlers Such as Anderson Broad Harmison,Hoggard doing well for Englandduring his time.I am sure that at least in this country he would have done well for England if given the chance.

Peter Lee took many wickets for Lancs at a medium quick pace but there were plenty of that type and often quicker than him in that era.

Flat Jack did great service for Lancs and was perhaps renowned more for his economy than as a big spinner of the ball.When we used to watch him we used to call him 9 10 Jack as he often seemed to get the last 3 out. Highly regarded as he certainly was at Lancy I don`t think anyone really expected him to play for England as a leading spinner.
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None of those were challenging Chapple at his peak, it was De Freitas, Cork, White et al. Flat Jack wasn't a test spinner but there wasn't anyone better in one day cricket.
 
Allmodcons said:
None of those were challenging Chapple at his peak, it was De Freitas, Cork, White et al. Flat Jack wasn't a test spinner but there wasn't anyone better in one day cricket.
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I haven`t got the stats but I actually had the impression that Chapple was at his best in his later years, in his thirties, when the bowlers I mentioned were doing well in the Test team.

Just checked. I see his only game for England was a one dayer against Ireland in 2006 when he was 32.
 
I think we will have go agree to disagree on this one 50s but decent debate. Some of my picks such as Austin would have been purely for one dayers and not necessarily the test arena.
 
Macseasider said:
What England need is a big money T20 competition like India and Australia.

Get rid of all this public schoolboy "test cricket is everything" and get girls and boys on parks SMACKING it, and on the flips side girls and boys learning to be able to bowl "clever".

For over a century batters and bowlers are pigeonholed into brackets. Of course they will excel in one particular area but why is it SO restrictive? Furthermore every top 4 batsman should be able to put in a stint of slow or medium pace bowling and should train as thus.

And I don't mean lobbing dollies down the track a la Atherton or Root.

IF players diversify from playing T20 then it may, in the long term, keep the likes of County Championship and Test Cricket alive for training purposes and for the older generations not willing to change into the modern form of the game to go along to moan at.

Putting the longer format of Cricket into smaller, local grounds may also assist. This would free up the larger grounds so that people can enjoy a shorter time in which they see a plethora of boundaries / entertainment and also increase attendances in smaller grounds i.e. pensioners

T20 is already the life and blood of modern cricket. It fills out huge cricket arenas around the world. It pays for all other forms of cricket.

It is the best and most natural form of cricket and the most likely, in England, to take the game back from the public schools and let boys and girls have a smash - or a clever bowl.

Factamundo.
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Millions of people were watching and have been watching England v Pakistan in a test match, would millions watch England v Pakistan in a T20? No.
 
I like both Test and T20 though it should be T25 to give fans the chance of a bit more game time for their money.🏏
 
SeasideKurt said:
Millions of people were watching and have been watching England v Pakistan in a test match, would millions watch England v Pakistan in a T20? No.
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You didn't disagree with everything Kurt? Wow.

Anyway - the CPL started today (Caribbean Premier League T20) so we are back watching entertaining cricket - along with the "best" Caribbean players that don't want a trip across the planet to play against the dullest opening pair of all time.

Great stuff. Proper cricket played as kids dreamed of it.

And you get commentators like Danny Morrison. The best.
 
Macseasider said:
You didn't disagree with everything Kurt? Wow.

Anyway - the CPL started today (Caribbean Premier League T20) so we are back watching entertaining cricket - along with the "best" Caribbean players that don't want a trip across the planet to play against the dullest opening pair of all time.

Great stuff. Proper cricket played as kids dreamed of it.

And you get commentators like Danny Morrison. The best.
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0 people watch the CPL. Zero interest in it.
 
Historically the MCC was, and still is a old boys Club dominated by public school education. They like their own types.

50's of course Northern players got picked, but they had to be very good and leaving it difficult not to give a chance too.

Pound for pound, 2 identical players, the southern publicly educated player would get the nod over even a southern state educated, less so now, but not beyond the realms of reality. Historically there would have been a question asked.
 
fcblackpool said:
Historically the MCC was, and still is a old boys Club dominated by public school education. They like their own types.

50's of course Northern players got picked, but they had to be very good and leaving it difficult not to give a chance too.

Pound for pound, 2 identical players, the southern publicly educated player would get the nod over even a southern state educated, less so now, but not beyond the realms of reality. Historically there would have been a question asked.
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It's not that long ago that professional cricketers entered the field from a different gate than the gentlemen. There's still that hangover.
 
Yeah in the 1950`s and before, when there were both amateur and professional players in the first class game,a very different era.So not long since, only about 60 years ago.Nothing much changed since then do you think? 🙄

You draw these wild unfounded preconceived conclusions that may have had some credence over half a century ago but certainly not any more, with nothing to back them up except clearly that large chip on your shoulder.

It`s the ECB not the MCC that controls cricket in this country and has done for many years, the MCC has far less power and influence than in the old days.

I have never heard anyone in recent times inside the game whether they be Bumble or Freddie or any other of the many state educated first class cricketers ever suggest that these days the England team is chosen dependent primarily on where they are educated .They pick the best players because their jobs are on the line if results are poor.It may be of course, because private schools play a lot more cricket, as a result they produce more top class cricketers pro rata which would hardly be surprising but that`s hardly their fault is it.
 
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English cricket obviously benefits from schools that give their kids the chance to play and develop their skills.It`s just a shame that these days those opportunities are denied to many others but there is always the junior club cricket route which my son certainly enjoyed and benefited from.
 
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