Govt paid 122 million for PPE bought for 46 million

[Always tangerine]

PPE Medpro linked to Tory peer ripped us off. The PPE was unused . She had special access to ministers to push for a deal to buy the equipment and civil servants were pressured to act on it.
No excuse.

Government paid firm linked to Tory peer £122m for PPE bought for £46m

PPE Medpro, which is linked to Michelle Mone, appears to have made huge profit on 25m gowns that were never used by NHS

www.theguardian.com

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Some of us said it was happening at the time, let's not forget that staff had little access to actual PPE all the way through 2020 while these fuckers were lining their pockets, it was a free for all. Profit for the well connected was more important than protecting NHS staff.

Still, we got a ** clap every Tuesday from the ministers and those who voted for them.

 

[Chunkylad]

Just remember if you ever feel you need to question the motivation of the government, George Osbourne did tell us “we are all in it together”!

I’m just waiting for my turn in the queue to do the tax payers for a good £20 million or so. I’m not too greedy

 

[Lost Seasider]

Please write to David Williams, second permanent secretary at the DHSC, he was the civil servant responsible for signing off all PPE contracts.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Please write to David Williams, second permanent secretary at the DHSC, he was the civil servant responsible for signing off all PPE contracts.

Nice try but the government can't hand over blame of health contract awards.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Please write to David Williams, second permanent secretary at the DHSC, he was the civil servant responsible for signing off all PPE contracts.

Is Mr Williams now the official “patsy” in Tory circles for this particular “snouts in trough” episode?

 

[Wizaard]

Some of us said it was happening at the time, let's not forget that staff had little access to actual PPE all the way through 2020 while these fuckers were lining their pockets, it was a free for all. Profit for the well connected was more important than protecting NHS staff.

Still, we got a ** clap every Tuesday from the ministers and those who voted for them.

We said it at the time and were told it wasn't happening.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

We said it at the time and were told it wasn't happening.

I’m Lost? Who told us it wasn’t happening?

It wasn’t that poster who kept misquoting the National Audit Office was it?

Who was that again?

 

[Wizaard]

I’m Lost? Who told us it wasn’t happening?

It wasn’t that poster who kept misquoting the National Audit Office was it?

Who was that again?

I need to know the source...

 

[Lost Seasider]

Is Mr Williams now the official “patsy” in Tory circles for this particular “snouts in trough” episode?

Permanent Secretary at the MoD these days.

If you think Mr Williams shouldn't have paid whatever it took to secure PPE and instead should've left the NHS workers without PPE, please just come out and say it.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Permanent Secretary at the MoD these days.

If you think Mr Williams shouldn't have paid whatever it took to secure PPE and instead should've left the NHS workers without PPE, please just come out and say it.

No one secured enough PPE and it was the government's job to do so.

 

[Wizaard]

No one secured enough PPE and it was the government's job to do so.

That government who are there to do the best for the country and not themselves

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Please write to David Williams, second permanent secretary at the DHSC, he was the civil servant responsible for signing off all PPE contracts.

No, Government ministers are responsible, civil servants serve.

 

[Wizaard]

No, Government ministers are responsible, civil servants serve.

And are accountable

 

[seasideone]

No, Government ministers are responsible, civil servants serve.

Just following orders eh?

 

[glasshalffull]

Some of us said it was happening at the time, let's not forget that staff had little access to actual PPE all the way through 2020 while these fuckers were lining their pockets, it was a free for all. Profit for the well connected was more important than protecting NHS staff.

Still, we got a ** clap every Tuesday from the ministers and those who voted for them.

Jeez it was Thursdays not Tuesdays! You NHS lot are so ungrateful.

I should know I had to talk to the bloody neighbours every week !

 

[Lost Seasider]

No, Government ministers are responsible, civil servants serve.

That's not what the evidence presented to the High Court says.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

That's not what the evidence presented to the High Court says.

Then you may be misinterpreting what the High Court has said.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Then you may be misinterpreting what the High Court has said.

Unlikely, here's the judgement in full: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vJHxocQbUmp5nj1b71ry3W352MHS1nhg/view

I think this is the most significant part (sorry, can't copy directly, so I've had to take screenshots, click to expand):





Seems pretty straightforward to me, it is the Accounting Officers, which is to say the Civil Servants, and the Accounting Officers only who had the authority to approve contracts.

The minister is responsible for setting policy, in this case the policy was to do whatever was needed to secure PPE for frontline health workers, it is the responsibility of the Civil Servants to actually secure the supplies of PPE, which is to say they're the ones actually negotiating and approving the contracts.

Of course, the minister is ultimately responsible for the decisions made by his officials, but it is the officials who are responsible for making the decisions in the first place.

There's a lot more information about how the system operated in the link, none of which you'll ever find in the Guardian because it doesn't suit their agenda.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Unlikely, here's the judgement in full: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vJHxocQbUmp5nj1b71ry3W352MHS1nhg/view

I think this is the most significant part (sorry, can't copy directly, so I've had to take screenshots, click to expand):

View attachment 10432
View attachment 10433
View attachment 10434

Seems pretty straightforward to me, it is the Accounting Officers, which is to say the Civil Servants, and the Accounting Officers only who had the authority to approve contracts.

The minister is responsible for setting policy, in this case the policy was to do whatever was needed to secure PPE for frontline health workers, it is the responsibility of the Civil Servants to actually secure the supplies of PPE, which is to say they're the ones actually negotiating and approving the contracts.

Of course, the minister is ultimately responsible for the decisions made by his officials, but it is the officials who are responsible for making the decisions in the first place.

There's a lot more information about how the system operated in the link, none of which you'll ever find in the Guardian because it doesn't suit their agenda.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I know very well how the system operates, having been part of it for 32 years. Any decisions made by civil servants are still the responsibility of the Minister. Any Minister who says not is a liar.

 

[Lost Seasider]

I know very well how the system operates, having been part of it for 32 years. Any decisions made by civil servants are still the responsibility of the Minister. Any Minister who says not is a liar.

That's somewhat different to your claim that "Civil Servants serve", and whatever way you want to present it, it is the Civil Servants who are making the decisions, not the ministers.

Or to put it another way, just because ministers are responsible for the actions of their officials, that does not mean that the officials are not responsible for their own actions.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

That's somewhat different to your claim that "Civil Servants serve", and whatever way you want to present it, it is the Civil Servants who are making the decisions, not the ministers.

Or to put it another way, just because ministers are responsible for the actions of their officials, that does not mean that the officials are not responsible for their own actions.

Civil Servants are responsible for their own actions, yes. But, at the point where those actions become decisions, they have to be approved by the Minister. It is the Minister who is accountable to Parliament, not their functionaries.

 

[glasshalffull]

Civil Servants are responsible for their own actions, yes. But, at the point where those actions become decisions, they have to be approved by the Minister. It is the Minister who is accountable to Parliament, not their functionaries.

Why fight it 1966? Looks like it has already been decided the Civil Servants are going to have to take the rap for this one!

 

[SEASIDE2020]

We said it at the time and were told it wasn't happening.

You know my views on this WIz.

Rather than hold an enquiry, I believe we that we should do them all a big favour and give them all the opportunity to provide justification for the awards/purchases and any penny that can't be justified should be taxed at 100%.

I am a patience and kind sort and I am willing not to impose any additional financial penalties or custodial sentences but I appreciate that not others will be as generous as me.

I know that we are not allowed to criticise the magnificent British Broadcasting Corporation on here but I would like to know why they are so quiet on this matter.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Why fight it 1966? Looks like it has already been decided the Civil Servants are going to have to take the rap for this one!

There's no rap to take, the decisions the CS's made were entirely justified in the circumstances, everything else is an attempt to create a story out of nothing.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Civil Servants are responsible for their own actions, yes. But, at the point where those actions become decisions, they have to be approved by the Minister. It is the Minister who is accountable to Parliament, not their functionaries.

And I'm sure the ministers are entirely happy to defend the decisions made by their officials in this case, but the implication of the story was that the decisions were being made by ministers, for corrupt reasons, and not officials, as you well know.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

And I'm sure the ministers are entirely happy to defend the decisions made by their officials in this case, but the implication of the story was that the decisions were being made by ministers, for corrupt reasons, and not officials, as you well know.

Actually Lost my only interest in this thread has been to clarify the relationship between elected Government ministers and the civil service.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Actually Lost my only interest in this thread has been to clarify the relationship between elected Government ministers and the civil service.

Yeah, right...............

 

[Cuthbert]

As a tax payer that is £8.30 of my own money robbed on this one deal.

 

[Limechase]

The above reads like an episode of Yes Minister

 

[Lost Seasider]

As a tax payer that is £8.30 of my own money robbed on this one deal.

The Civil Service view was that this was an insurance policy against the risks of running out of PPE.

 

[Cuthbert]

The Civil Service view was that this was an insurance policy against the risks of running out of PPE.

And totally ignored most local contractors, I know first hand. Luckily some councils and combined authorities were sensible to look locally rather than filling the boots of their mates and off shore companies and manufacturers. Just wanted to get big imported PPE contracts as they are massively out of touch with UK businesses. Its a disgrace. As a UK business you cannot buy a postage stamp site off the Government without 2 years of delays. The Civil Service act like impotent school kids infront of this Government and don't do their jobs well. They are busy trying to impress their masters by doing cart wheels for them.

 

[glasshalffull]

And totally ignored most local contractors, I know first hand. Luckily some councils and combined authorities were sensible to look locally rather than filling the boots of their mates and off shore companies and manufacturers. Just wanted to get big imported PPE contracts as they are massively out of touch with UK businesses. Its a disgrace. As a UK business you cannot buy a postage stamp site off the Government without 2 years of delays. The Civil Service act like impotent school kids infront of this Government and don't do their jobs well. They are busy trying to impress their masters by doing cart wheels for them.

There was an interesting article in Private Eye about a month ago comparing the average cost of PPE paid by the England/Wales Govt Department and the one in Scotland during this period.
I can’t remember the exact figures but in essence I think the Scots paid about two thirds less for gowns and one third less for masks. You would think it would be the other way round given the economies of scale difference?

The Scots have also eventually managed to get to a point where nearly 90% of it’s PPE was being manufactured in Scotland from local products apparently.
Just a different way of doing things I suppose. Where there is a will!

Still a bit of a ‘whiff” around this I think especially when you consider it in context with things like the Covid Business Loans fraud as well?

 

[Lost Seasider]

There was an interesting article in Private Eye about a month ago comparing the average cost of PPE paid by the England/Wales Govt Department and the one in Scotland during this period.
I can’t remember the exact figures but in essence I think the Scots paid about two thirds less for gowns and one third less for masks. You would think it would be the other way round given the economies of scale difference?

The Scots have also eventually managed to get to a point where nearly 90% of it’s PPE was being manufactured in Scotland from local products apparently.
Just a different way of doing things I suppose. Where there is a will!

Still a big ‘whiff” around this I think especially when you consider it in context with things like the Covid Business Loans fraud as well?

I suspect you'll find that the Scots were getting a lot of their supplies out of UK central stocks, especially during the early days when prices were highest, possibly paying below cost for the equipment.

If you look into it, you'll probably find it's a case of comparing apples and oranges, small quantities of PPE sourced locally by the Scottish government, but the vast majority of PPE used by NHS Scotland came directly from the DHSC from China.

 

[glasshalffull]

I suspect you'll find that the Scots were getting a lot of their supplies out of UK central stocks, especially during the early days when prices were highest, possibly paying below cost for the equipment.

If you look into it, you'll probably find it's a case of comparing apples and oranges, small quantities of PPE sourced locally by the Scottish government, but the vast majority of PPE used by NHS Scotland came directly from the DHSC from China.

Perhaps, I cannot remember where they got their figures from TBH and it’s now been recycled. Haven’t checked but I think their content is behind a paywall.
From memory though they seemed to be suggesting the Scottish buyers had been out to China to check the suppliers. Not sure how they would have been able to even do that at the time.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Perhaps, I cannot remember where they got their figures from TBH and it’s now been recycled. Haven’t checked but I think their content is behind a paywall.
From memory though they seemed to be suggesting the Scottish buyers had been out to China to check the suppliers. Not sure how they would have been able to even do that at the time.

I think this is the story:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/sul2gi

The Scottish purchases cover a 15 Month period to March 2021 whereas the DHSC purchases cover a 6 month period to July 2020, which is to say the peak of shortages and thus the peak of prices, on a simple pro-rata basis that equates to £120m, or about 1% of the DHSC spend over the period.

On a per capita basis, I'd expect Scotland to have needed about £1bn worth of PPE over the 6 month period, and thus they appear to have sourced about 90% of their PPE from the DHSC. In reality I suspect they were almost completely reliant on the DHSC during the early stages of the pandemic, and the vast majority of the £300m spend was after July 2020, i.e. after the initial shortages, hence how the buyers were able to go to China to check the suppliers, an option obviously not available to the DHSC in March 2020.

So it's not a fair comparison at all. The Eye is comparing emergency purchases during the initial crisis with top-up supplies acquired at leisure once the shortages have passed, even then NHS Scotland seems to have been 80%+ reliant on the DHSC.

A fair comparison would be to look at what the DHSC was paying after July 2020, but then that doesn't sell papers, in the circumstances, it seems creditable that the DHSC was "only" paying a 20% - 30% premium for the supplies.

It's always worth checking these stories, they're almost always misleading.


Edit:

First paragraph got overwritten by the link, I've had to rewrite it.

 

[Cuthbert]

There was an interesting article in Private Eye about a month ago comparing the average cost of PPE paid by the England/Wales Govt Department and the one in Scotland during this period.
I can’t remember the exact figures but in essence I think the Scots paid about two thirds less for gowns and one third less for masks. You would think it would be the other way round given the economies of scale difference?

The Scots have also eventually managed to get to a point where nearly 90% of it’s PPE was being manufactured in Scotland from local products apparently.
Just a different way of doing things I suppose. Where there is a will!

Still a bit of a ‘whiff” around this I think especially when you consider it in context with things like the Covid Business Loans fraud as well?

It was just easier to source your own PPE locally than go through the Government. The procurement was tragic and also not designed to help UK businesses - (maybe UK middlemen?). It was lazy in the extreme

 

[glasshalffull]

I think this is the story:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/sul2gi

The Scottish purchases cover a 15 Month period to March 2021 whereas the DHSC purchases cover a 6 month period to July 2020, which is to say the peak of shortages and thus the peak of prices, on a simple pro-rata basis that equates to £120m, or about 1% of the DHSC spend over the period.

On a per capita basis, I'd expect Scotland to have needed about £1bn worth of PPE over the 6 month period, and thus they appear to have sourced about 90% of their PPE from the DHSC. In reality I suspect they were almost completely reliant on the DHSC during the early stages of the pandemic, and the vast majority of the £300m spend was after July 2020, i.e. after the initial shortages, hence how the buyers were able to go to China to check the suppliers, an option obviously not available to the DHSC in March 2020.

So it's not a fair comparison at all. The Eye is comparing emergency purchases during the initial crisis with top-up supplies acquired at leisure once the shortages have passed, even then NHS Scotland seems to have been 80%+ reliant on the DHSC.

A fair comparison would be to look at what the DHSC was paying after July 2020, but then that doesn't sell papers, in the circumstances, it seems creditable that the DHSC was "only" paying a 20% - 30% premium for the supplies.

It's always worth checking these stories, they're almost always misleading.


Edit:

First paragraph got overwritten by the link, I've had to rewrite it.

The timescale difference certainly makes it harder to compare like for like, but it certainly seems that a more efficient and holistic approach was in place for quite a lot of the time at least.
Maybe it was just being smaller and nimbler or perhaps it was something else.

 

[Lost Seasider]

The timescale difference certainly makes it harder to compare like for like, but it certainly seems that a more efficient and holistic approach was in place for quite a lot of the time at least.
Maybe it was just being smaller and nimbler or perhaps it was something else.

The difference was they were buying later in the year, or even in 2021, didn't have to rush, could pick and choose, take their time and if it didn't work out they could always call on the DHSC stocks instead, these are luxuries that the DHSC obviously didn't have available.

The cynic in me wonders why the Scottish Government needed to acquire PPE directly at all, and if in fact the entire exercise was simply a political show designed to show the Scottish Government in a good light compared to Westminster, in which case it could be argued that the entire £300m was wasted.

 

[Lost Seasider]

It was just easier to source your own PPE locally than go through the Government. The procurement was tragic and also not designed to help UK businesses - (maybe UK middlemen?). It was lazy in the extreme

It was a chronic rush amidst global shortages to source PPE from anywhere, it was simply not possible to wait for local producers to spin up production so that they can "source locally", especially on a national scale.

 

[glasshalffull]

The cynic in me wonders why the Scottish Government needed to acquire PPE directly at all, and if in fact the entire exercise was simply a political show designed to show the Scottish Government in a good light compared to Westminster, in which case it could be argued that the entire £300m was wasted.

I am sure Nicola Sturgeon aspires to this kind of political skullduggery. Not sure it was achievable at that time.

It was a chronic rush amidst global shortages to source PPE from anywhere,

I certainly get that, which is what was so frustrating at the time knowing that people I knew and cared for on the front line had to improvise their own PPE and risked contracting the virus while the Government was not pursuing every avenue possible to speed up the supply.
Hats off to many achievements at that time mind.

 

[Lost Seasider]

I certainly get that, which is what was so frustrating at the time knowing that people I knew and cared for on the front line had to improvise their own PPE and risked contracting the virus while the Government was not pursuing every avenue possible to speed up the supply.

From what I've read they were doing everything they could to speed up supply, if you read my earlier link to the GLP court judgement, there's a detailed description of how the system worked.

 

[gjr69]

That's somewhat different to your claim that "Civil Servants serve", and whatever way you want to present it, it is the Civil Servants who are making the decisions, not the ministers.

Or to put it another way, just because ministers are responsible for the actions of their officials, that does not mean that the officials are not responsible for their own actions.

So do we have bent civil servants poncing off contracts given to associates at inflated prices?
Wether it's mps or civil servants they and their friends shouldn't benefit from dodgy over priced contracts, pre Brexit I could move to southern Europe for that sort of thing!!

 

[glasshalffull]

From what I've read they were doing everything they could to speed up supply, if you read my earlier link to the GLP court judgement, there's a detailed description of how the system worked.

Yes I read as much as I could stand at the time! It certainly helped to understand what was going on, and let’s face it they had to act quickly.
I am not sure that they couldn’t have done more to utilise the offers they had from Britain’s fabric manufacturers as well as providing very lucrative contracts for those bidding on the global markets TBH. It all seemed pretty wide open to nepotism and fraud as well, but then maybe that is always the case especially when done hurriedly in the middle of a crisis.

 

[Lost Seasider]

It all seemed pretty wide open to nepotism and fraud as well, but then maybe that is always the case especially when done hurriedly in the middle of a crisis.

Not really, the controls the Civil Service had in place appear to have been robust, the prices were being checked against established benchmarks and value for money was being considered at the time, albeit balanced against the need for the particular equipment, we might not have got the best value for money, but that was a function of the market conditions and not nepotism or fraud.

As a benchmark, if at the height of the crisis we were paying 20% - 30% over what the Scots were paying six months to a year later, once shortages have passed, we've probably done alright.

 

[Lost Seasider]

So do we have bent civil servants poncing off contracts given to associates at inflated prices?
Wether it's mps or civil servants they and their friends shouldn't benefit from dodgy over priced contracts, pre Brexit I could move to southern Europe for that sort of thing!!

No, we have honest Civil Servants trying to secure vital equipment in extraordinary conditions during a global shortage.

 

[glasshalffull]

Not really, the controls the Civil Service had in place appear to have been robust, the prices were being checked against established benchmarks and value for money was being considered at the time, albeit balanced against the need for the particular equipment, we might not have got the best value for money, but that was a function of the market conditions and not nepotism or fraud.

I hope you are right. Most of us only really want some common sense, honesty, and good faith from our politicians, and Civil Servants for that matter.