Hamas v Israel

seasideone

seasideone

Well-known member
…am I the only one that can see two sides to this argument?

Most people seem to have a very polarised view - whichever way it is. Then name call if you don’t agree with them.

I am nether Xenophobic or racist and apart from wanting peace I have no vested interest.

I visited Israel years ago and saw for myself how the Palestinians are treated by Israel and on the whole it wasn’t good.

Hamas have been firing rockets for ages at Israel before this - and in reality for quite a period Israel were relatively reserved about it.

Then Hamas cross the border and go and kill many Israelis and kidnap a few hundred.

Now Israel are no angels and never have been, but Hamas to some respect escalated all this, so what did they expect Israel to do.

Israel were always going to wade in after what happened - have they gone to far???

Probably, but then again what we do if one of our neighbours kidnapped a few hundred Brits and started killing them.

Hell, we sailed an Armada around the world to rescue a few Islanders back in 82.

The point I am making here is both sides hear hold responsibility and it isn’t as simple as taking one side or the other - unless you are so intrenched in your opinions.

The Jewish people were treated horrendously (words don’t do justice here) in WW2, but for me it doesn’t mean they are above criticism on how they behave.

What’s the answers - well that’s above my pay grade!!!

…but what isn’t the answer, is this continuing as it is!!
 
I honestly don't think anyone who is not really close to the situation with detailed knowledge and experience of all the highly complex issues is really in any position to make a judgement. One side wants the other side wiped out. The other side would leave them alone if they were left alone, but that's never going to happen. But it's way too complex for people to make calls based on snippets they see on the news or social media.
 
seasideone said:
…am I the only one that can see two sides to this argument?

Most people seem to have a very polarised view - whichever way it is. Then name call if you don’t agree with them.

I am nether Xenophobic or racist and apart from wanting peace I have no vested interest.

I visited Israel years ago and saw for myself how the Palestinians are treated by Israel and on the whole it wasn’t good.

Hamas have been firing rockets for ages at Israel before this - and in reality for quite a period Israel were relatively reserved about it.

Then Hamas cross the border and go and kill many Israelis and kidnap a few hundred.

Now Israel are no angels and never have been, but Hamas to some respect escalated all this, so what did they expect Israel to do.

Israel were always going to wade in after what happened - have they gone to far???

Probably, but then again what we do if one of our neighbours kidnapped a few hundred Brits and started killing them.

Hell, we sailed an Armada around the world to rescue a few Islanders back in 82.

The point I am making here is both sides hear hold responsibility and it isn’t as simple as taking one side or the other - unless you are so intrenched in your opinions.

The Jewish people were treated horrendously (words don’t do justice here) in WW2, but for me it doesn’t mean they are above criticism on how they behave.

What’s the answers - well that’s above my pay grade!!!

…but what isn’t the answer, is this continuing as it is!!
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No you are not alone. Totally agree with all of that.
 
Tangerine Tractor said:
I honestly don't think anyone who is not really close to the situation with detailed knowledge and experience of all the highly complex issues is really in any position to make a judgement. One side wants the other side wiped out. The other side would leave them alone if they were left alone, but that's never going to happen. But it's way too complex for people to make calls based on snippets they see on the news or social media.
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That’s a balanced response though and someone who appears to see both sides, and you are right we are not in the middle of it - but there is more on this than just snippets of news, and most the history is all to see.

My point is more the fact that many are so entrenched in their position - I personally find it ridiculous!
 
If you can solve something that has been going on for around 100 years, then your pay grade should be a lot higher.
 
seasideone said:
…am I the only one that can see two sides to this argument?

Most people seem to have a very polarised view - whichever way it is. Then name call if you don’t agree with them.

I am nether Xenophobic or racist and apart from wanting peace I have no vested interest.

I visited Israel years ago and saw for myself how the Palestinians are treated by Israel and on the whole it wasn’t good.

Hamas have been firing rockets for ages at Israel before this - and in reality for quite a period Israel were relatively reserved about it.

Then Hamas cross the border and go and kill many Israelis and kidnap a few hundred.

Now Israel are no angels and never have been, but Hamas to some respect escalated all this, so what did they expect Israel to do.

Israel were always going to wade in after what happened - have they gone to far???

Probably, but then again what we do if one of our neighbours kidnapped a few hundred Brits and started killing them.

Hell, we sailed an Armada around the world to rescue a few Islanders back in 82.

The point I am making here is both sides hear hold responsibility and it isn’t as simple as taking one side or the other - unless you are so intrenched in your opinions.

The Jewish people were treated horrendously (words don’t do justice here) in WW2, but for me it doesn’t mean they are above criticism on how they behave.

What’s the answers - well that’s above my pay grade!!!

…but what isn’t the answer, is this continuing as it is!!
Click to expand...
yep, decent post but you need to amend your third from the bottom line. The Jewish people were treated horrendously in WW2 but it's not the Jewish people per se that is responsible for what is happening in Gaza. You need to be more specific in your criticism. It's Israel and certain factions within that country. But yep a good post.
 
Satriale's Pork Store said:
When I saw the title to the o/p I thought FIFA had set up a friendly match between the two sides.

Joking aside, what Hamas did was truly evil but Israel's response is disproportionate in terms of innocent lives lost and ongoing suffering to ordinary Palistinians.
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I agree with the disproportionate but Hamas can't be negotiated with and perhaps Israel has simply had enough and Hamas doing what they did was a catalyst.

Unless you are close to it like TT says it's not easy to grasp what it must be like for either side.
 
I've no idea how these situations can be resolved (if at all) blowing up some Houthis didn't scare them enough to stop either, rather the opposite I expect. Perhaps we should just leave them all to it, which is hard seeing innocent people & children blown to bits. Unfortunately I believe the human race will ultimately be masters in it's own downfall. It's just a case of when. 😞
 
seasideone said:
…am I the only one that can see two sides to this argument?

Most people seem to have a very polarised view - whichever way it is. Then name call if you don’t agree with them.

I am nether Xenophobic or racist and apart from wanting peace I have no vested interest.

I visited Israel years ago and saw for myself how the Palestinians are treated by Israel and on the whole it wasn’t good.

Hamas have been firing rockets for ages at Israel before this - and in reality for quite a period Israel were relatively reserved about it.

Then Hamas cross the border and go and kill many Israelis and kidnap a few hundred.

Now Israel are no angels and never have been, but Hamas to some respect escalated all this, so what did they expect Israel to do.

Israel were always going to wade in after what happened - have they gone to far???

Probably, but then again what we do if one of our neighbours kidnapped a few hundred Brits and started killing them.

Hell, we sailed an Armada around the world to rescue a few Islanders back in 82.

The point I am making here is both sides hear hold responsibility and it isn’t as simple as taking one side or the other - unless you are so intrenched in your opinions.

The Jewish people were treated horrendously (words don’t do justice here) in WW2, but for me it doesn’t mean they are above criticism on how they behave.

What’s the answers - well that’s above my pay grade!!!

…but what isn’t the answer, is this continuing as it is!!
Click to expand...

You've about covered it there One. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that lacks tolerance of the Jewish State. Yes, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians going about their daily business has been very poor down the years but if Hamas wants pan-national acceptance as the Governors of Palestine then they need to behave in a diplomatic and sober manner.

As for Israel, it's initial response wad justified. It's continued terrorising of the Palestinian people is not.
 
I think most people actually agree with you. Why is it not possible to be against the actions of the Israeli government without being considered anti semitic. Equally being anti Hamas does not mean being anti Palestinian. As someone else said innocent people are dragged into a war they don’t want. My sympathies lie with the innocent victims on both sides equally. Their lives appear inconsequential to both sides.
 
Whilst avoiding the news as much as possible as it's relentlessly negative - I still think that given 1300 people were murdered by Hamas, which is the equivalent to 6000 people who live in Britain, or probably more pertinently, 30,000 Americans - there's a lot of latitude left for Israel.

I said it at the time, we went in to 2 wars with the US on the back of 9/11 - and that was significantly less impactful than what Israel suffered.

My concern is, it's so difficult to win peace through the approach currently being adopted and certainly when it's about beliefs and ideas, not just about land and resources. In the meantime lots of people are dying (I wouldn't trust the figures reported by Hamas's Health agency as it's in their interests to make it seem worse than it is) but, as in any conflict, the civilians will be collateral damage and it's a given it will be in the thousands.

I have no idea whether the Hamas officials who got out of Gaza still think it was a good idea to attack Israel; but I dare say plenty inside what remains, will be thinking they royally fucked them over for a day of infamy.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
They'll still think it was a great idea, they care about the Palestinian people about as much as the Israeli army do.
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Very true. In the world of unintended consequences (or was this intended?) both sides have also provoked a rise in extremist action elsewhere in the middle east. Notably the growing influence of the Houthi administration on the Suez seaway. Add to this the climate induced problems with the Panama canal being short of sufficent water to ensure safe passage and global trade is taking a hit. That may be more likely to provoke action than any political ideals.
 
The big worry is that this added to Ukraine, fuels the division between east and west, by that I mean, Russia, Iran, North Korea, China etc v the western democracies.

Unless they all take a step back, our children will be involved in the worst war ever.
 
Mark_GT said:
Very true. In the world of unintended consequences (or was this intended?) both sides have also provoked a rise in extremist action elsewhere in the middle east. Notably the growing influence of the Houthi administration on the Suez seaway. Add to this the climate induced problems with the Panama canal being short of sufficent water to ensure safe passage and global trade is taking a hit. That may be more likely to provoke action than any political ideals.
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The Houthi's are being backed by Iran....which we know, and Iran I think is being asked to back them by Russia in order to focus the West somewhere other than Ukraine. The idea that the US are the world's policeman will feature heavily in the election run up. The US public won't want billions going to Ukraine and the cost of policing the suez, with the obvious risk of escalation.

There won't be a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict simply because Israel is paranoid at what come come next. A new independent Palestinian state is seen as a breeding ground for terrorists on their border, probably rightly. So to an extent I can understand why they are hunting every Hamas bod down, not the butchery Israel is showing though. Ultimately, they are just kicking the can down the road and are best advert for Hamas recruitment they could dream of.
 
I could take the Israeli govt seriously if they didn't have a part in funding Hamas to isolate the PLO. Peace was within a whisker with the Oslo agreement and it was shattered by the assignation of Rabin by an extremist zionist.
Since then it's been a downhill escalation of never ending violence. At some point the two sides will have to meet. Hamas will have to hand over weapons and Israel must stop occupying land illegally.
 
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