Have you looked in detail at the Energy Price Cap?

SeasideTerrier said:
I must be thick then.
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I agree.


SeasideTerrier said:
If facts are deemed ludicrous claims, how do the Daily Express and Daily Mail still exist?
The claims of £170bn excess profits may prove to be excessive in due course, But lets ignore the fact that energy companies have, and continue to make excess profits (when @bleach51 and @Dave62 studied the term was 'supernormal profits'
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The issue is not whether they've making "excess profits" but where the profits are derived from.

North Sea gas total revenues were £12bn last year (that was a good year for them BTW), that's the order of magnitude we're talking about, maybe that'll double to £24bn this year, and that'll be taxed at 65%, but it's nowhere near £170bn.

If the £170bn figure is remotely accurate to anything, then it'll be 90% down to operations conducted outside the UK by the likes of BP/Shell, and if you think you can apply a windfall tax to that without them immediately leaving the country then you've got another thing coming.


SeasideTerrier said:
The facts I listed are true and validated, so please explain how they are ludicrous. GBNews might help the uninformed
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The only sense in which your "facts" are true is that it is true that those absurd claims have been made, quite what you think that adds to the debate is beyond me.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Anything factually wrong with what they say?

Another one to ignore if you like:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1567775055945338881


Edit: Mr Armitage's source above if you want to check: https://www.nstauthority.co.uk/data...and-publications/ukcs-income-and-expenditure/
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You may not have noticed, but prices have crept up since 2021, the latest profit figure quoted.

Windfall, by definition, is profits over and above what were expected. The costs haven't exponentially increased, therefore the profits will be huge on the massive price increases this year and next.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I agree.




The issue is not whether they've making "excess profits" but where the profits are derived from.

North Sea gas total revenues were £12bn last year (that was a good year for them BTW), that's the order of magnitude we're talking about, maybe that'll double to £24bn this year, and that'll be taxed at 65%, but it's nowhere near £170bn.

If the £170bn figure is remotely accurate to anything, then it'll be 90% down to operations conducted outside the UK by the likes of BP/Shell, and if you think you can apply a windfall tax to that without them immediately leaving the country then you've got another thing coming.




The only sense in which your "facts" are true is that it is true that those absurd claims have been made, quite what you think that adds to the debate is beyond me.
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You are utterly bereft of debate. I suspect you were never a candidate for PPE at Oxbridge
 
tommytwojags said:
Is that the "We desperately need to rejoin the single market" Will Hutton?

It's not like the Guardian to publish the opinions of anti-Tory, anti-Brexit extremists 😅
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The single market is the best trade deal this country ever had or ever will have. Dispute all the evidence brexiteers just shrug it off, its a cult.
 

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Stony Hill said:
An excellent piece of research but, I’m far more concerned for the ordinary person, you included, in terms of household bills.
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As am I, and I'm sure the government is too, but the fact that Starmer and Co. are resorting to, what are in effect, lies about a mythical pot of money that could easily be tapped, is not helping matters.
 
Shandypants said:
The single market is the best trade deal this country ever had or ever will have. Dispute all the evidence brexiteers just shrug it off, its a cult.
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The decision to leave the EU was made by referendum many years ago. It's gone. The country decided and voted to leave. Nobody is going back. Those who refuse to accept this reality oppose the democratic decision of the population and prevent the country moving forward. Worse than that, many of those same people continue to exercise anti-brexit, anti-democratic views in other unrelated areas because they remain haunted by a decision they disagree with. Will Hutton is one of many whose overriding emotion is born from a disagreement with the democratic decision to leave the EU, so that every utterance and every article is tainted with this unhealthy feeling that the majority had voted wrongly and that the government must be punished. Until they accept that there is no prospect of a return to the single market and acknowledge where we are, they do nothing but harm to this country.
 
tommytwojags said:
The decision to leave the EU was made by referendum many years ago. It's gone. The country decided and voted to leave. Nobody is going back. Those who refuse to accept this reality oppose the democratic decision of the population and prevent the country moving forward. Worse than that, many of those same people continue to exercise anti-brexit, anti-democratic views in other unrelated areas because they remain haunted by a decision they disagree with. Will Hutton is one of many whose overriding emotion is born from a disagreement with the democratic decision to leave the EU, so that every utterance and every article is tainted with this unhealthy feeling that the majority had voted wrongly and that the government must be punished. Until they accept that there is no prospect of a return to the single market and acknowledge where we are, they do nothing but harm to this country.
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EU probably yes, the Single Market, which we never voted to leave, perhaps less so.
The UK Business Investment graph from the FT posted above should show us pretty clearly when it took it’s big hit, and what has happened since.
We may be forced to think about rejoining the Single Market if metrics like this one do not satisfactorily regain their upward trajectory in the next few years.
 
tommytwojags said:
The decision to leave the EU was made by referendum many years ago. It's gone. The country decided and voted to leave. Nobody is going back. Those who refuse to accept this reality oppose the democratic decision of the population and prevent the country moving forward. Worse than that, many of those same people continue to exercise anti-brexit, anti-democratic views in other unrelated areas because they remain haunted by a decision they disagree with. Will Hutton is one of many whose overriding emotion is born from a disagreement with the democratic decision to leave the EU, so that every utterance and every article is tainted with this unhealthy feeling that the majority had voted wrongly and that the government must be punished. Until they accept that there is no prospect of a return to the single market and acknowledge where we are, they do nothing but harm to this country.
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When standards of living drop, there is every prospect of returning to the single market. I'm yet to hear of these sunlit uplands and to say that they do nothing but harm to this country is a childish deflection tactic to the whole debate.
 
Shandypants said:
When standards of living drop, there is every prospect of returning to the single market. I'm yet to hear of these sunlit uplands and to say that they do nothing but harm to this country is a childish deflection tactic to the whole debate.
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There really is no debate concerning rejoining the EU or the single market in its present form. Neither main political party has shown any interest in this. Rejoiners promote a maverick anti-democratic movement which is disruptive and the fact that it creates bad feeling and friction is beyond dispute.
 
tommytwojags said:
That would be correct if it was the government that was inflating the prices in the first place. In this case you're getting a reduction of £1400. Enjoy it.
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Oh Thanks TTJ, I'll pass that on to my daughter who is already doing two jobs just to keep her head above water. I hope so much that she does "enjoy it" when her bills go up.
 
tommytwojags said:
There really is no debate concerning rejoining the EU or the single market in its present form. Neither main political party has shown any interest in this. Rejoiners promote a maverick anti-democratic movement which is disruptive and the fact that it creates bad feeling and friction is beyond dispute.
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I'd say a maverick anti democratic stance is to shut down opposition. A healthy democracy relies on people constantly challenging and a majority of 4% is hardly a ringing endorsement for such a change with massive implications. I'll still question the decision at every turn and it's my democratic right. To say otherwise is plain silly at best and sinister at worst.
 
tommytwojags said:
The decision to leave the EU was made by referendum many years ago. It's gone. The country decided and voted to leave. Nobody is going back. Those who refuse to accept this reality oppose the democratic decision of the population and prevent the country moving forward. Worse than that, many of those same people continue to exercise anti-brexit, anti-democratic views in other unrelated areas because they remain haunted by a decision they disagree with. Will Hutton is one of many whose overriding emotion is born from a disagreement with the democratic decision to leave the EU, so that every utterance and every article is tainted with this unhealthy feeling that the majority had voted wrongly and that the government must be punished. Until they accept that there is no prospect of a return to the single market and acknowledge where we are, they do nothing but harm to this country.
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Yet day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year it turning out to be complete disaster for the very people who voted to leave. Public services at breaking point, inflation on the up, interest rates on the up, food prices on the up. a home counties person should cope at a push, red wall low income families truly shafted.
 
glasshalffull said:
EU probably yes, the Single Market, which we never voted to leave, perhaps less so.
The UK Business Investment graph from the FT posted above should show us pretty clearly when it took it’s big hit, and what has happened since.
We may be forced to think about rejoining the Single Market if metrics like this one do not satisfactorily regain their upward trajectory in the next few years.
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Glass

Good points made by both Tommy and yourself.

We can always consider things.
 
GEER said:
Yet day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year it turning out to be complete disaster for the very people who voted to leave. Public services at breaking point, inflation on the up, interest rates on the up, food prices on the up. a home counties person should cope at a push, red wall low income families truly shafted.
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So the rest of Europe hasn't got inflation up, interest rates up food prices up?
These stupid Lockdowns have caused the problem but you Remoaners love to blame Brexit.
Interest rates in Germany.👍Screenshot_20220912-191543-452.png
 
GEER said:
Yet day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year it turning out to be complete disaster for the very people who voted to leave. Public services at breaking point, inflation on the up, interest rates on the up, food prices on the up. a home counties person should cope at a push, red wall low income families truly shafted.
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The fact is the whole world is suffering. The subject of this thread, the increase in energy prices, is the result of Russia's actions, not brexit. If it were, then only we would be facing rising fuel charges. Clearly that's not the case. In fact, the foresight of our government in not selling our souls to Russia as Germany has done puts the UK in a far healthier position than some other countries. It is fuel suppliers that are inflating fuel charges. The government is spending unprecedented sums helping out individuals and businesses and in the main its intervention has been well received. The other points you make regarding inflation, interest rates, food prices are also nothing to do with Brexit and suggesting that people in the home counties will suffer less than others is makes no sense at all.
 
Il
SEASIDE2020 said:
Glass

Good points made by both Tommy and yourself.

We can always consider things.
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👍 Yes and lots of mud in the water due to Covid, the supply chains, Ukraine, cost of living etc, etc.
Certainly there is no impetus to change things at the moment as it is probably too soon, and definitely too politically awkward for both main parties.
Maybe things will sort themselves out for the better, but not looking great so far.
 
glasshalffull said:
Il


👍 Yes and lots of mud in the water due to Covid, the supply chains, Ukraine, cost of living etc, etc.
Certainly there is no impetus to change things at the moment as it is probably too soon, and definitely too politically awkward for both main parties.
Maybe things will sort themselves out for the better, but not looking great so far.
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Yes Glass, more fair points, I don't think anything is as bad as some folk suggest, certainly re Brexit, they've made up their minds and are not for changing but I doubt too much has really changed in their lives because the UK has left the EU.
 
tommytwojags said:
The decision to leave the EU was made by referendum many years ago. It's gone. The country decided and voted to leave. Nobody is going back. Those who refuse to accept this reality oppose the democratic decision of the population and prevent the country moving forward. Worse than that, many of those same people continue to exercise anti-brexit, anti-democratic views in other unrelated areas because they remain haunted by a decision they disagree with. Will Hutton is one of many whose overriding emotion is born from a disagreement with the democratic decision to leave the EU, so that every utterance and every article is tainted with this unhealthy feeling that the majority had voted wrongly and that the government must be punished. Until they accept that there is no prospect of a return to the single market and acknowledge where we are, they do nothing but harm to this country.
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Your first two sentences are correct. After that, you seem to be suggesting that no one is allowed to change their mind. Despite voting Remain, I accepted the result and looked forward to Brexit being done, and all the benefits which were promised.

Reality seems to be all the promises were hot air, there are no benefits, we are outside the single market, we haven't got significant Trade deals, UK plc is taking a harder hit than most, the Agreement has split NI off from the rest of the UK. It is therefore not unreasonable to suggest that some may have changed their minds. At the moment, we live in a Democracy, so if the population want another vote, they are entitled to it. The mechanism is a General Election, surely you wouldn't suggest that because the UK voted one way last time and should never have another vote.

The Right seems to have a very tenuous grasp of Democracy.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Your first two sentences are correct. After that, you seem to be suggesting that no one is allowed to change their mind. Despite voting Remain, I accepted the result and looked forward to Brexit being done, and all the benefits which were promised.

Reality seems to be all the promises were hot air, there are no benefits, we are outside the single market, we haven't got significant Trade deals, UK plc is taking a harder hit than most, the Agreement has split NI off from the rest of the UK. It is therefore not unreasonable to suggest that some may have changed their minds. At the moment, we live in a Democracy, so if the population want another vote, they are entitled to it. The mechanism is a General Election, surely you wouldn't suggest that because the UK voted one way last time and should never have another vote. The Right seems to have a very tenuous grasp of Democracy.
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Of course you can change your mind, but you can't change the result of the vote. When we have a general election we choose a party to run the country and a PM. If you disagree with the decision you can't go back and demand a different party and PM. And when we vote on brexit we decide whether or not to leave the EU. That's the end of the matter until the next election or referendum. Perhaps there will be another referendum, but it seems unlikely that this will be in the foreseeable future. The tenuous grasp of democracy that you mention is wanting to ignore the majority vote of the electorate.
 
tommytwojags said:
Of course you can change your mind, but you can't change the result of the vote. When we have a general election we choose a party to run the country and a PM. If you disagree with the decision you can't go back and demand a different party and PM. And when we vote on brexit we decide whether or not to leave the EU. That's the end of the matter until the next election or referendum. Perhaps there will be another referendum, but it seems unlikely that this will be in the foreseeable future. The tenuous grasp of democracy that you mention is wanting to ignore the majority vote of the electorate.
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Delighted that you have confirmed that we can change our minds and have another vote if we wish, thank you 👍 By your logic, having a different vote at the next GE is ignoring democracy.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Delighted that you have confirmed that we can change our minds and have another vote if we wish, thank you 👍 By your logic, having a different vote at the next GE is ignoring democracy.
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It's not my decision whether there is a brejoin referendum, but neither Labour nor the Tories seem to want that so it seems unlikely to happen.

For your information I consider that the general election is the epitome of democracy. That's where the great British public can genuinely influence the political governance of this country.
 
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