I know we didn’t have a shot on target BUT

It was a good game of footie and I enjoyed it and can see why Bolton are doing so well .. HOWEVER .. it's like saying you have made the perfect pudding mix but forgotten to put the oven on. Without those shots on target and goals what's the point?
I would have Dobbie promoted to Critch's assistant and leave him to deal with how we score goals.
 
The ‘shots on target’ thing is a complete red herring as far as this game is concerned. As ever, our negative fans will latch on to anything they can in order to have a go and spread their negativity.

If you look at shots on target, Bolton apparently had 5 to our none… Yet have you seen the 5?

Barring the long range effort… They’re all lame efforts and none of them threatened (hence the fact their XG for the game was below 1).

We has equally good goal scoring opportunities… The fact we missed the target slightly or didn’t get a shot off even, is more a matter of how things fall on the day than a reflection of the true balance of the game.

We also had a stonewall penalty for handball … not given!!

The game was evenly balanced… Us slightly better first half.. Them slightly better second half… over the 90 they edged it ever so slightly.

The game itself swung from end to end. Both sides defended well and both sides struggled to make much of an impact in the opposition box / final third.

Reality is that they are a good side, they have managerial stability, a system that they’ve stuck with and they are in good form. In my view we matched them at home in a game that should have been drawn and could just have easily gone 1-0 in our favour had we had that little bit of good fortune on the day.
 
Not to mention Dembele hitting the post in the 4th minutes. It was a very tight game, in fairness to Bolton they probably just about edged it based on the 2nd half but I really don't think we were as bad as some would have you believe. Yes we need to improve but the lads absolutely put a shift in and it was considerably better than Dumpdale a couple of years ago, which some drew comparisons to.
 
Bolton were just better and had far more intent to win the game than us. They looked up for the fight and won the majority of the second balls. I must have watched a different game to you because for 60/70% of the game we were substantially second best and only one side was going to win. Their number 8 was running rings around us and their CB had Rhodes in his pocket all afternoon.

If they had more quality up front we'd have lost 2/3 to zip.

Saturday doesn't concern me in reality, it's the games at home where we are putting pressure on ourselves to beat the mediocre sides.
 
NewburyOne said:
Not to mention Dembele hitting the post in the 4th minutes. It was a very tight game, in fairness to Bolton they probably just about edged it based on the 2nd half but I really don't think we were as bad as some would have you believe. Yes we need to improve but the lads absolutely put a shift in and it was considerably better than Dumpdale a couple of years ago, which some drew comparisons to.
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Good
 
Poolfan2 said:
It was a good game of footie and I enjoyed it and can see why Bolton are doing so well .. HOWEVER .. it's like saying you have made the perfect pudding mix but forgotten to put the oven on. Without those shots on target and goals what's the point?
I would have Dobbie promoted to Critch's assistant and leave him to deal with how we score goals.
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I’m curious about this Dobbie assistant thing. Others have mentioned Dobbie as an attack coach. He has no experience of being either position and it’s not like Rugby Union/ American Football where there are specialist coaches. I’d remind you that the last promised striker specialist type coach was Terry C and look how that turned out !
 
SeasideKurt said:
Bolton were just better and had far more intent to win the game than us. They looked up for the fight and won the majority of the second balls. I must have watched a different game to you because for 60/70% of the game we were substantially second best and only one side was going to win. Their number 8 was running rings around us and their CB had Rhodes in his pocket all afternoon.

If they had more quality up front we'd have lost 2/3 to zip.

Saturday doesn't concern me in reality, it's the games at home where we are putting pressure on ourselves to beat the mediocre sides.
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Their number 8 (Sheehan) was quality. I googled him actually and now remember he was ex Newport and constantly stood out on EFL highlights for them. Some good scouting there for them.
 
Dougz said:
Their number 8 (Sheehan) was quality. I googled him actually and now remember he was ex Newport and constantly stood out on EFL highlights for them. Some good scouting there for them.
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Best player on the day and by a distance. In the first half our midfield more than matched them but in the 2nd half they made changes, Sheehan dropped deeper and could then dictate play. Too many times he was left with time on the ball as neither Morgan, Carey or Norburn stepped up.
 
Tangman74 said:
Against a team that has won 10 and lost 2 I actually thought we didn’t have a bad game , first half especially where we were the better team . Thought it was a good game of footie to be honest 🤷🏻
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I don’t think anyone is saying we had a bad game. I think most can appreciate we were up against a decent side and it wasn’t a bad performance.

But what people really want to see is us creating chances and going for 3 points. We certainly weren’t holding on for a draw on Saturday but it also felt as if we were waiting for a lucky break or a Bolton mistake rather than actively going on the front foot. Think that’s most people’s issue and the 0 shots on target fits into that.
 
Shiggy said:
I don’t think anyone is saying we had a bad game. I think most can appreciate we were up against a decent side and it wasn’t a bad performance.

But what people really want to see is us creating chances and going for 3 points. We certainly weren’t holding on for a draw on Saturday but it also felt as if we were waiting for a lucky break or a Bolton mistake rather than actively going on the front foot. Think that’s most people’s issue and the 0 shots on target fits into that.
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I don’t think you can underestimate the impact losing Lavery late in the day will have had on us tbh.

I can remember thinking that we really had no cards to play in the second half. With every respect to Joseph and Kouassi … one is not fully fit and the other is more of a plodder than an impact sub to add intensity…

This game more than any other needed is to press with intensity in their half.

I think the tactics were pretty much spot on on the day, we just lacked options to up the ante.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I don’t think you can underestimate the impact losing Lavery late in the day will have had on us tbh.

I can remember thinking that we really had no cards to play in the second half. With every respect to Joseph and Kouassi … one is not fully fit and the other is more of a plodder than an impact sub to add intensity…

This game more than any other needed is to press with intensity in their half.

I think the tactics were pretty much spot on on the day, we just lacked options to up the ante.
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Agree with you completely there. Wasn’t ideal.

Still think we could’ve gone with Kouassi to give their big CB a bit of physical competition.
 
Good to read an OP that doesn't just moan. There's a distinct lack of balance as usual, in reaction to the defeat. I think the vast majority of us, though, believe things could be better, and could also be worse. There are some things going well, and some things not going so well. The way I see it....

Not so good:
- Not enough consistency of selection.
- Includes disruptive injuries.
- Wing backs not good enough.
- Critch can't work out how to use Weir, Morgan, Carey effectively.
- so we don't get the creativity we need from both the wing backs and the midfield.
- we are playing 352 but Critch doesn't appear to see where it's going wrong.
- Grimmy's shot stopping has deteriorated
- We've only won 6 of 17 games
- Loaning Apter out was a mistake, for me. If he'd had CJ's minutes he'd be a better option now IMO. No comparison in football ability.
- we can't string together a full 90 minute performance

Stuff to appreciate:
- the players all seem on board and motivated
- players who struggled last season have recovered their best form. KD and Hubby in particular
- Kenny and Norburn look like a good pairing.
- Casey and Dale have returned much better
- we've only lost 5 of 17 games
- we've had a few spell when we've looked really good, usually after going behind. It shows what we are capable of.

In my opinion our weak areas have been the two wing positions, the third midfielder, and a consistent partner for Rhodes. We should be able to resolve all these with existing players, if and when they are fit.

Gabriel, Lyons and Apter are all good enough to do well in L1. Dale, CJ and Thompson are not that far off either. But nobody has excelled out wide, in this system.

Weir, Morgan, Carey and Dembele should be enough to give us more in attacking midfield terms than we are getting.

Joseph, Kouassi and Lavery give us pretty good options to provide a partner for Rhodes.

Critch could be getting more from what he has. But I don't think we are miles away. There's justification for criticism, but also for support. I wonder sometimes why NC has so much faith in certain individuals, and so little in others. Why he can't get more from Jensen Weir. And Andy Lyons. Why he loans out Rob Apter, preferring to play a kick and rush athlete with little ball control or crossing ability.

But I do think we will gradually get better. Inch by inch.
 
voyeur said:
Good to read an OP that doesn't just moan. There's a distinct lack of balance as usual, in reaction to the defeat. I think the vast majority of us, though, believe things could be better, and could also be worse. There are some things going well, and some things not going so well. The way I see it....

Not so good:
- Not enough consistency of selection.
- Includes disruptive injuries.
- Wing backs not good enough.
- Critch can't work out how to use Weir, Morgan, Carey effectively.
- so we don't get the creativity we need from both the wing backs and the midfield.
- we are playing 352 but Critch doesn't appear to see where it's going wrong.
- Grimmy's shot stopping has deteriorated
- We've only won 6 of 17 games
- Loaning Apter out was a mistake, for me. If he'd had CJ's minutes he'd be a better option now IMO. No comparison in football ability.
- we can't string together a full 90 minute performance

Stuff to appreciate:
- the players all seem on board and motivated
- players who struggled last season have recovered their best form. KD and Hubby in particular
- Kenny and Norburn look like a good pairing.
- Casey and Dale have returned much better
- we've only lost 5 of 17 games
- we've had a few spell when we've looked really good, usually after going behind. It shows what we are capable of.

In my opinion our weak areas have been the two wing positions, the third midfielder, and a consistent partner for Rhodes. We should be able to resolve all these with existing players, if and when they are fit.

Gabriel, Lyons and Apter are all good enough to do well in L1. Dale, CJ and Thompson are not that far off either. But nobody has excelled out wide, in this system.

Weir, Morgan, Carey and Dembele should be enough to give us more in attacking midfield terms than we are getting.

Joseph, Kouassi and Lavery give us pretty good options to provide a partner for Rhodes.

Critch could be getting more from what he has. But I don't think we are miles away. There's justification for criticism, but also for support. I wonder sometimes why NC has so much faith in certain individuals, and so little in others. Why he can't get more from Jensen Weir. And Andy Lyons. Why he loans out Rob Apter, preferring to play a kick and rush athlete with little ball control or crossing ability.

But I do think we will gradually get better. Inch by inch.
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I think thats a fair post but I dont share your optimism with Apter and if we play Apter, Dale, Lavery and Dembele then we will be very short of height. I think one of our biggest issues has been how poor Morgan and Weir have been so far in what should be a crucial position.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
The ‘shots on target’ thing is a complete red herring as far as this game is concerned. As ever, our negative fans will latch on to anything they can in order to have a go and spread their negativity.

If you look at shots on target, Bolton apparently had 5 to our none… Yet have you seen the 5?

Barring the long range effort… They’re all lame efforts and none of them threatened (hence the fact their XG for the game was below 1).

We has equally good goal scoring opportunities… The fact we missed the target slightly or didn’t get a shot off even, is more a matter of how things fall on the day than a reflection of the true balance of the game.

We also had a stonewall penalty for handball … not given!!

The game was evenly balanced… Us slightly better first half.. Them slightly better second half… over the 90 they edged it ever so slightly.

The game itself swung from end to end. Both sides defended well and both sides struggled to make much of an impact in the opposition box / final third.

Reality is that they are a good side, they have managerial stability, a system that they’ve stuck with and they are in good form. In my view we matched them at home in a game that should have been drawn and could just have easily gone 1-0 in our favour had we had that little bit of good fortune on the day.
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The game was evenly balanced but to say that zero shots on target is a red herring is disingenuous as it is clearly one of the most important indicators of a performance. You dont win many matches with no shots on target.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
I think thats a fair post but I dont share your optimism with Apter and if we play Apter, Dale, Lavery and Dembele then we will be very short of height. I think one of our biggest issues has been how poor Morgan and Weir have been so far in what should be a crucial position.
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I don't understand why you can't see the quality Apter has. His height is irrelevant really. He's a skilful attacking wide player.

Morgan played ok first half on Saturday. He's possibly better deeper. Weir is surely better than we are seeing.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
The game was evenly balanced but to say that zero shots on target is a red herring is disingenuous as it is clearly one of the most important indicators of a performance. You dont win many matches with no shots on target.
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It’s not disingenuous at all… what is disingenuous is making a big song and dance out of a meaningless statistic. Two stats matter…

1. Goal scoring opportunities
2. Goals scored

A goal scoring opportunity either ends up in the back of the net or it doesn’t. It makes no difference whether a shot goes fractionally wide or is tamely hit straight at the keeper (yet one is called a shot on target and the other isn’t)…the outcome is the same either way.

We had opportunities to score… they had opportunities to score.. The Dembele chance early doors was a whisker away from being a goal for example.

It was always going to be a tight game and that’s why the XG for both sides is below 1.

Do you seriously expect us to be peppering the Bolton goal away from home, given their recent form?
 
voyeur said:
I don't understand why you can't see the quality Apter has. His height is irrelevant really. He's a skilful attacking wide player.

Morgan played ok first half on Saturday. He's possibly better deeper. Weir is surely better than we are seeing.
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Some players impress some and not others. If Rob Apter cannot get a regular spot in Tranmere's team near the foot of League 2 then what makes you think he will consistently perform well at the top end of League 1?...Morgan has had far more poor games than good games at this juncture ...he may improve but to date looks a disappointing signing (he was about 5th pick at Charlton when all the midfielders were fir and thats about the level he has played at.) I agree Weir should be doing better but he really isnt doing that well at all...we cannot afford any passengers if we have designs on making the play offs.
 
Another way of putting this is that we have played 5 of the top 6 and none have looked better than us. BUT they are all above us! We should be picking up more points.

TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
Some players impress some and not others. If Rob Apter cannot get a regular spot in Tranmere's team near the foot of League 2 then what makes you think he will consistently perform well at the top end of League 1?...
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Apter has started the last few games, got motm and was named in L2 team of the week on Saturday, and their fans are starting to worry he won't stay in January.

I've also seen him play. He's a very good footballer. I also got a text from a guy I know who supports Stockport saying Apter was the best player on the pitch recently. Better than L2 level in his opinion.
 
voyeur said:
Good to read an OP that doesn't just moan. There's a distinct lack of balance as usual, in reaction to the defeat. I think the vast majority of us, though, believe things could be better, and could also be worse. There are some things going well, and some things not going so well. The way I see it....

Not so good:
- Not enough consistency of selection.
- Includes disruptive injuries.
- Wing backs not good enough.
- Critch can't work out how to use Weir, Morgan, Carey effectively.
- so we don't get the creativity we need from both the wing backs and the midfield.
- we are playing 352 but Critch doesn't appear to see where it's going wrong.
- Grimmy's shot stopping has deteriorated
- We've only won 6 of 17 games
- Loaning Apter out was a mistake, for me. If he'd had CJ's minutes he'd be a better option now IMO. No comparison in football ability.
- we can't string together a full 90 minute performance

Stuff to appreciate:
- the players all seem on board and motivated
- players who struggled last season have recovered their best form. KD and Hubby in particular
- Kenny and Norburn look like a good pairing.
- Casey and Dale have returned much better
- we've only lost 5 of 17 games
- we've had a few spell when we've looked really good, usually after going behind. It shows what we are capable of.

In my opinion our weak areas have been the two wing positions, the third midfielder, and a consistent partner for Rhodes. We should be able to resolve all these with existing players, if and when they are fit.

Gabriel, Lyons and Apter are all good enough to do well in L1. Dale, CJ and Thompson are not that far off either. But nobody has excelled out wide, in this system.

Weir, Morgan, Carey and Dembele should be enough to give us more in attacking midfield terms than we are getting.

Joseph, Kouassi and Lavery give us pretty good options to provide a partner for Rhodes.

Critch could be getting more from what he has. But I don't think we are miles away. There's justification for criticism, but also for support. I wonder sometimes why NC has so much faith in certain individuals, and so little in others. Why he can't get more from Jensen Weir. And Andy Lyons. Why he loans out Rob Apter, preferring to play a kick and rush athlete with little ball control or crossing ability.

But I do think we will gradually get better. Inch by inch.
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Your spot on with this analysis mate
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s not disingenuous at all… what is disingenuous is making a big song and dance out of a meaningless statistic. Two stats matter…

1. Goal scoring opportunities
2. Goals scored

A goal scoring opportunity either ends up in the back of the net or it doesn’t. It makes no difference whether a shot goes fractionally wide or is tamely hit straight at the keeper (yet one is called a shot on target and the other isn’t)…the outcome is the same either way.

We had opportunities to score… they had opportunities to score.. The Dembele chance early doors was a whisker away from being a goal for example.

It was always going to be a tight game and that’s why the XG for both sides is below 1.

Do you seriously expect us to be peppering the Bolton goal away from home, given their recent form?
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Thats where we disagree...Shots on target is never a meaningless statistic and if you have zero then just how many goals do you think we will score?

I know you would have been delighted with a nil nil and to be fair that would have been a good result. However there was little likelihood of them not scoring given how leaky we have been recently and we needed to be braver. Both myself and my lad thought we would play defensive and get turned over 1-0 and that is how it proved. We did actually play better than I thought we would.

I didnt expect us to pepper their goal but I did expect more attacking intent that Rhodes(who by his own admission doesnt suit a lone striker role) left isolated and expected to feed on scraps. If Critchley is going to persist with this dull as ditchwater style then he better start getting some more wins as people will be less and less forgiving of the negative set ups.

I guess your answer to that will be that we have scored plenty of goals recently but lets be honest we gave Codwood and Peterboro 2 &3 head start by going negative and nearly let two very average teams in Bromley and Cheltenham off the hook. Its not good enough at the moment and it needs to change as we still have Xmas and new year to come where we rarely get anything at all.

I want the manager to do well as I certainly dont want to pin our hopes on an unproven Stephen Dobbie. It is hard to deny that he should be doing better with this squad of players.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
The ‘shots on target’ thing is a complete red herring as far as this game is concerned. As ever, our negative fans will latch on to anything they can in order to have a go and spread their negativity.

If you look at shots on target, Bolton apparently had 5 to our none… Yet have you seen the 5?

Barring the long range effort… They’re all lame efforts and none of them threatened (hence the fact their XG for the game was below 1).

We has equally good goal scoring opportunities… The fact we missed the target slightly or didn’t get a shot off even, is more a matter of how things fall on the day than a reflection of the true balance of the game.

We also had a stonewall penalty for handball … not given!!

The game was evenly balanced… Us slightly better first half.. Them slightly better second half… over the 90 they edged it ever so slightly.

The game itself swung from end to end. Both sides defended well and both sides struggled to make much of an impact in the opposition box / final third.

Reality is that they are a good side, they have managerial stability, a system that they’ve stuck with and they are in good form. In my view we matched them at home in a game that should have been drawn and could just have easily gone 1-0 in our favour had we had that little bit of good fortune on the day.
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How is a header on target that is deflected wide not classified as being on target? Both Husband and Carey had headers going in until deflected wide. It still counts as being on target if the keeper tips it over. What's the difference?
 
voyeur said:
Another way of putting this is that we have played 5 of the top 6 and none have looked better than us. BUT they are all above us! We should be picking up more points.


Apter has started the last few games, got motm and was named in L2 team of the week on Saturday, and their fans are starting to worry he won't stay in January.

I've also seen him play. He's a very good footballer. I also got a text from a guy I know who supports Stockport saying Apter was the best player on the pitch recently. Better than L2 level in his opinion.
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Thats all fair comment and I have also seen him play...however both you and I are not professional coaches and a series of managers have not fancied him at all. I hope he comes good but at present he would be a bench warmer here at best and its better for him to get game time. I dont believe he is currently the answer and like many of our injured players he seems to improve when he is not in the team. People have selective memories for players and a showreel of Apter highlights would no doubt show some talent...a showreel of CJ highlights would show an absolute world beater who should be in the Prem
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
Thats all fair comment and I have also seen him play...however both you and I are not professional coaches and a series of managers have not fancied him at all. I hope he comes good but at present he would be a bench warmer here at best and its better for him to get game time. I dont believe he is currently the answer and like many of our injured players he seems to improve when he is not in the team. People have selective memories for players and a showreel of Apter highlights would no doubt show some talent...a showreel of CJ highlights would show an absolute world beater who should be in the Prem
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I really disagree on this one. He is a young lad who is progressing rapidly. He smashed it at Chester and Scunthorpe, their fans raved about him. The same is starting to happen at Tranmere in L2. And you can see it. His ability is obvious. Tranmere sacked their boss after he signed. They are just settling down and he's emerging as their most talented player.

The Trannies say...

dollar'sbloke said:
Re-Apter, although Blackpool are going well, realistically they need to have four wide players ahead of him to keep him out on loan. I fear the worst
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Sadly I agree. I was surprised they let him get cup tied but I suppose their focus is more on the League where they clearly have high hopes of the playoffs.
Looks good enough to play L1 in my opinion now he is getting regular starts.
 
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Total Tranmere - Apter the Raptor

Total Tranmere discussion board : Unofficial Tranmere Rovers news and views
m.thefootballnetwork.net

Really exciting player and brings a new dimension to our play. The problem is, the better he plays and Blackpool may reconsider their decision to loan him out.
 
I have no issue with you championing his cause and I really hope you are right and it all works out for him. It does seem odd that Neil Critchley twice, Stephen Dobbie, Mick McCarthy and Michael Appleton didnt fancy him. Also Ian Dawes at the Trannies didnt fancy him either and it has been left for Nigel Adkins to pick up the pieces. at the end of the day he is only 20 and still has time but it is probably getting to make or break time for him at Blackpool.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
I have no issue with you championing his cause and I really hope you are right and it all works out for him. It does seem odd that Neil Critchley twice, Stephen Dobbie, Mick McCarthy and Michael Appleton didnt fancy him. Also Ian Dawes at the Trannies didnt fancy him either and it has been left for Nigel Adkins to pick up the pieces. at the end of the day he is only 20 and still has time but it is probably getting to make or break time for him at Blackpool.
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You're not thinking straight.

We were in the Championship last season and the season before when he was 18/19.

So it's entirely about this season. Dawes signed him! And then got sacked.

You're miles off here.

And, he came on at Norwich in the Championship and looked good. He came on at Wolves and looked good. I can understand that Critch decided that regular games would be good for him, but his time will come soon for us, and he'd offer more now than what our wide players are doing, I reckon. We get so little decent service to the strikers from out wide.
 
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voyeur said:
You're not thinking straight.

We were in the Championship last season and the season before when he was 18/19.

So it's entirely about this season. Dawes signed him! And then got sacked.

You're miles off here.

And, he came on at Norwich in the Championship and looked good. He came on at Wolves and looked good. I can understand that Critch decided that regular games would be good for him, but his time will come soon for us, and he'd offer more now than what our wide players are doing, I reckon. We get so little decent service to the strikers from out wide.
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Hope you’re right…doubt it personally
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
Thats where we disagree...Shots on target is never a meaningless statistic and if you have zero then just how many goals do you think we will score?

I know you would have been delighted with a nil nil and to be fair that would have been a good result. However there was little likelihood of them not scoring given how leaky we have been recently and we needed to be braver. Both myself and my lad thought we would play defensive and get turned over 1-0 and that is how it proved. We did actually play better than I thought we would.

I didnt expect us to pepper their goal but I did expect more attacking intent that Rhodes(who by his own admission doesnt suit a lone striker role) left isolated and expected to feed on scraps. If Critchley is going to persist with this dull as ditchwater style then he better start getting some more wins as people will be less and less forgiving of the negative set ups.

I guess your answer to that will be that we have scored plenty of goals recently but lets be honest we gave Codwood and Peterboro 2 &3 head start by going negative and nearly let two very average teams in Bromley and Cheltenham off the hook. Its not good enough at the moment and it needs to change as we still have Xmas and new year to come where we rarely get anything at all.

I want the manager to do well as I certainly dont want to pin our hopes on an unproven Stephen Dobbie. It is hard to deny that he should be doing better with this squad of players.
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Like I said you either score or you don’t. There's only one 'Target' and that's the back of the net... Anything that doesn't hit the back of the net isn't 'On Target' as far as I'm concerned. Essentially fans are using it as a stick to beat us within this game and to suggest we had no attacking intent, yet we created / had pretty much as many goal scoring opportunities as Bolton. The point being that the majority of their so called 'On Target' efforts had no ore chance of hitting the back of the net, than if they'd been blasted 10 ft over the cross bar.... It really is just a stupid statistic. As Wiz says, a shot that is deflected off target by a defender wouldn't count, yet a feeble shot that is hit straight at the keeper or pushed wide by the keeper would. Total Rubbish TBH!!

I’m not sure I’d have been ‘delighted’ by a nil nil, but I do think it would have been a fair result and under the circumstances it would have been a good result for us. I've no doubt you had already made your mind up that we'd be defensive and lose, you're not exactly 'Peter Positive' at the best of times😆

I'm not entirely sure whether Rhodes was playing as a lone striker or whether Dembele was offered up as his strike partner. We were obviously recoiling into a kind of 5-4-1 set up when they (Bolton) were advancing. I suspect things might have looked different, had Lavery been available, but unfortunately that wasn't the case and I suspect that kind of killed our 'plan of attack'

I think it's disingenuous to describe our set up and intent vs either Peterborough or Fleetwood as 'negative'. However I don't think the choice of starting personnel did us any favours in either match. Peterborough were comprehensively better than us on the day... Fleetwood lucked out to come away with a draw if the truth be known... That said, we dithered a bit in the first half and paid the price.

I don't disagree with you that the results haven't been good enough and I also think our performances have also been up and down. It's been a tricky run of games and it would have been nice to have come out with a few more points (I think we possibly deserve to be 3-4 up from the recent run of games, based on performances).

I also think that we could (most likely) change the formation and benefit from a pretty instant turnaround in the results, I'm just not sure that is the right thing to do over the longer term and (being totally honest) that's where I'm focused. The problem I think we have is that our supporters are impatient, the Club aren't great at communicating what they are trying to achieve and that results in a bit of a disconnect....I also think that a good few of our fans are pretty eager to take any opportunity to take a stab at Critchley.... I said to a few people on Saturday that if Evatt were the manager, he'd be getting a whole lot more leeway from the fans.... It seems Critchley was in negative equity the moment he arrived.

The question I think you and many other fans need to ponder really is whether you are prepared to sacrifice a bit of short-term form in order to allow the Manager and players time to get this system working to best effect (and personally I think we're talking post Christmas, before we start to see any kind of consistency). I keep harping on about Bolton and Evatt, but he was the butt of similar criticism for persisting with the system that now seems to be paying dividends.

You know where I am.... I have 100% faith in this manager (OK That may prove to be unfounded) but I believe in him and I believe in what he is trying to do. To that extent, I genuinely couldn't give a fuck about the result at Fleetwood, whether we were a bit too apathetic in the first half vs Peterborough or whether our Goals on Target vs Bolton on Saturday was zero or twenty, because I'm bought in to a process that is likely to take time.... I can see enough signs of progress to draw positivity from and so I'm satisfied that things are moving in the right direction. What I don't want to see is another half baked compromise system which trades off the long term goal of attractive / entertaining football for short term effectiveness, because as I see it, that's a bus you can't jump off once it's rolling.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
The game was evenly balanced but to say that zero shots on target is a red herring is disingenuous as it is clearly one of the most important indicators of a performance. You dont win many matches with no shots on target.
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I remember when we played Fleetwood a few seasons ago. Not one shot on target and we won 1-0.
Deflected OG. I honestly think that a shot that hits the woodwork rather than a collected save that Granny would have taken is far closer to scoring.

Charlton goal of season v Blackpool
Fleetwood goal of season v Blackpool.
Bolton goal of season v Blackpool.
 
GrahamwantshisOates said:
I remember when we played Fleetwood a few seasons ago. Not one shot on target and we won 1-0.
Deflected OG.

Charlton goal of season v Blackpool
Fleetwood goal of season v Blackpool.
Bolton goal of season v Blackpool.
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Like I said ...you dont win many without a shot on target.

We do concede a lot of goals from a long way out...is that just bad luck?...I thought the Oxford goal was also a great team goal...truth is thought we are letting in way too many.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
Like I said ...you dont win many without a shot on target.

We do concede a lot of goals from a long way out...is that just bad luck?...I thought the Oxford goal was also a great team goal...truth is thought we are letting in way too many.
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Do we?

What's the number of Long Range Goals we have conceded this season and how does that compare to everyone else?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Like I said you either score or you don’t. There's only one 'Target' and that's the back of the net... Anything that doesn't hit the back of the net isn't 'On Target' as far as I'm concerned. Essentially fans are using it as a stick to beat us within this game and to suggest we had no attacking intent, yet we created / had pretty much as many goal scoring opportunities as Bolton. The point being that the majority of their so called 'On Target' efforts had no ore chance of hitting the back of the net, than if they'd been blasted 10 ft over the cross bar.... It really is just a stupid statistic. As Wiz says, a shot that is deflected off target by a defender wouldn't count, yet a feeble shot that is hit straight at the keeper or pushed wide by the keeper would. Total Rubbish TBH!!

I’m not sure I’d have been ‘delighted’ by a nil nil, but I do think it would have been a fair result and under the circumstances it would have been a good result for us. I've no doubt you had already made your mind up that we'd be defensive and lose, you're not exactly 'Peter Positive' at the best of times😆

I'm not entirely sure whether Rhodes was playing as a lone striker or whether Dembele was offered up as his strike partner. We were obviously recoiling into a kind of 5-4-1 set up when they (Bolton) were advancing. I suspect things might have looked different, had Lavery been available, but unfortunately that wasn't the case and I suspect that kind of killed our 'plan of attack'

I think it's disingenuous to describe our set up and intent vs either Peterborough or Fleetwood as 'negative'. However I don't think the choice of starting personnel did us any favours in either match. Peterborough were comprehensively better than us on the day... Fleetwood lucked out to come away with a draw if the truth be known... That said, we dithered a bit in the first half and paid the price.

I don't disagree with you that the results haven't been good enough and I also think our performances have also been up and down. It's been a tricky run of games and it would have been nice to have come out with a few more points (I think we possibly deserve to be 3-4 up from the recent run of games, based on performances).

I also think that we could (most likely) change the formation and benefit from a pretty instant turnaround in the results, I'm just not sure that is the right thing to do over the longer term and (being totally honest) that's where I'm focused. The problem I think we have is that our supporters are impatient, the Club aren't great at communicating what they are trying to achieve and that results in a bit of a disconnect....I also think that a good few of our fans are pretty eager to take any opportunity to take a stab at Critchley.... I said to a few people on Saturday that if Evatt were the manager, he'd be getting a whole lot more leeway from the fans.... It seems Critchley was in negative equity the moment he arrived.

The question I think you and many other fans need to ponder really is whether you are prepared to sacrifice a bit of short-term form in order to allow the Manager and players time to get this system working to best effect (and personally I think we're talking post Christmas, before we start to see any kind of consistency). I keep harping on about Bolton and Evatt, but he was the butt of similar criticism for persisting with the system that now seems to be paying dividends.

You know where I am.... I have 100% faith in this manager (OK That may prove to be unfounded) but I believe in him and I believe in what he is trying to do. To that extent, I genuinely couldn't give a fuck about the result at Fleetwood, whether we were a bit too apathetic in the first half vs Peterborough or whether our Goals on Target vs Bolton on Saturday was zero or twenty, because I'm bought in to a process that is likely to take time.... I can see enough signs of progress to draw positivity from and so I'm satisfied that things are moving in the right direction. What I don't want to see is another half baked compromise system which trades off the long term goal of attractive / entertaining football for short term effectiveness, because as I see it, that's a bus you can't jump off once it's rolling.
Click to expand...
I think you make some good and valid points there and that is why I am happy to engage with you on topics like this. I sat next to Wizaard on Saturday and he really is Peter Positive whereas I am a bit more pragmatic (possibly verging on negative at times). I believe somewhere between the two viewpoints is probably closer to the reality.

We really were not that bad on Saturday and we have already seen far worse away performances this season (notably Lincoln and Wycombe) However, I believe we could have been more positive and played Kouassi up top with Rhodes and gone for it. You are comfortable playing for a 1-0 win or even 0-0 and I think we have the personnel to be better than that and aim higher.

The manager has to realise that if you are playing negative uninspiring football then you need to get results...boring and not winning is a very poor combination. I think NC still has a bit in the bank following on from his previous tenure but so did Simon Grayson and I can honestly see comparison between the two.

I think to put it in poker parlance you have gone all in with Neil Critchley when a simple continuation bet would suffice. He isnt the football equivalent of a pair of aces and its a hand you should play with caution. I think you are right to suggest he gets more time but my question to you (which you didnt really answer last time) is at what point do you say enough is enough and this aint working. If we finish lower than 12th then that is an obvious failure to me and I would be reluctant to continue with him. What is your break point where your opinion changes and we need to look elsewhere or are you happy to just avoid relegation , dust ourselves down and go again next season?
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
Like I said ...you dont win many without a shot on target.

We do concede a lot of goals from a long way out...is that just bad luck?...I thought the Oxford goal was also a great team goal...truth is thought we are letting in way too many.
Click to expand...
We have conceded a lot of long range goals in the last 3 seasons albeit two of those seasons were in the Championship. If we had defended the way we have this season in the Championship then we would have let a ton of goals in...strikers are far more lethal in the next division up.
 
voyeur said:
You may have done. But you are behind the times, it seems to me.
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That is yet to be proven in this case...there isnt only me who doesnt see Rob Apter as a world beater. As I say he seems to have massively improved now he is not here much in the same way as Gabriel, Virtue and Stewart are all world beaters when they are out through injury.
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
That is yet to be proven in this case...there isnt only me who doesnt see Rob Apter as a world beater. As I say he seems to have massively improved now he is not here much in the same way as Gabriel, Virtue and Stewart are all world beaters when they are out through injury.
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Improved on what? A couple of sub appearances for the first team?

Gabriel Virtue and Stewart are all very good players when fit, as we know. So not sure what you are on about there either.
 
voyeur said:
Improved on what? A couple of sub appearances for the first team?

Gabriel Virtue and Stewart are all very good players when fit, as we know. So not sure what you are on about there either.
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People over rate them when they are injured and seem to remember them as much more accomplished players than they actually are...
 
TANGERINETOWERPOWER said:
I think you make some good and valid points there and that is why I am happy to engage with you on topics like this. I sat next to Wizaard on Saturday and he really is Peter Positive whereas I am a bit more pragmatic (possibly verging on negative at times). I believe somewhere between the two viewpoints is probably closer to the reality.

We really were not that bad on Saturday and we have already seen far worse away performances this season (notably Lincoln and Wycombe) However, I believe we could have been more positive and played Kouassi up top with Rhodes and gone for it. You are comfortable playing for a 1-0 win or even 0-0 and I think we have the personnel to be better than that and aim higher.

The manager has to realise that if you are playing negative uninspiring football then you need to get results...boring and not winning is a very poor combination. I think NC still has a bit in the bank following on from his previous tenure but so did Simon Grayson and I can honestly see comparison between the two.

I think to put it in poker parlance you have gone all in with Neil Critchley when a simple continuation bet would suffice. He isnt the football equivalent of a pair of aces and its a hand you should play with caution. I think you are right to suggest he gets more time but my question to you (which you didnt really answer last time) is at what point do you say enough is enough and this aint working. If we finish lower than 12th then that is an obvious failure to me and I would be reluctant to continue with him. What is your break point where your opinion changes and we need to look elsewhere or are you happy to just avoid relegation , dust ourselves down and go again next season?
Click to expand...
It’s an impossible question to answer as there are too many variables, but in the broadest possible terms I’d apply the following logic.

This season

1.Automatic - Amazing
2.Play Offs (win or lose) - Very Good
3.Top Ten - Acceptable-ish
4.Below Top Ten - Unacceptable

I’m probably having a serious discussion about the future if we end up 3 or 4. However I’m probably not letting him go unless we flirt with relegation.

Next Season
I’m expecting to be in a play off spot and threatening the automatic spots. If our form is still floundering at this time next year, then I think I’m making the decision to call time.
 
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