Indy Ref 2

Until they pay back the debt from this pandemic I wouldn't allow one anyway.
You can see what would happen they'd sod off and leave all us idiot English paying their share.
 
Sturgeon has said she would accept the judgment of the Supreme Court, but already she's ranting again about Scotland's rights of self-determination being restricted.

She whinged "Scottish democracy will not be denied. Today’s ruling blocks one route to Scotland’s voice being heard on independence - but in a democracy our voice cannot and will not be silenced."

Now Sturgeon says she will use the next general election as a de facto referendum on independence. That's just ridiculous because SNP is the majority party. Therefore, it will attract the most votes. That doesn't mean Scottish voters want independence. Maybe it's time for the SNP to turn its attention to running the country, which seems to be in a bit of a mess at the moment.
 
tommytwojags said:
Sturgeon has said she would accept the judgment of the Supreme Court, but already she's ranting again about Scotland's rights of self-determination being restricted.

She whinged "Scottish democracy will not be denied. Today’s ruling blocks one route to Scotland’s voice being heard on independence - but in a democracy our voice cannot and will not be silenced."

Now Sturgeon says she will use the next general election as a de facto referendum on independence. That's just ridiculous because SNP is the majority party. Therefore, it will attract the most votes. That doesn't mean Scottish voters want independence. Maybe it's time for the SNP to turn its attention to running the country, which seems to be in a bit of a mess at the moment.
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She wants to be independently dependent on the EU.... because she can get more money to make even bigger fcuk ups...😳
 
She is an absolute master at double speak.

"I won't give up on democracy" as though the previous 'once in a generation' referendum wasn't democratic.

I absolutely believe in the right to self-determination and I've no great feelings one way or the other to having another referendum and more broadly Scottish independence, but my God she can spin the truth to a level which would make Tony Blair blush.
 
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tommytwojags said:
Sturgeon has said she would accept the judgment of the Supreme Court, but already she's ranting again about Scotland's rights of self-determination being restricted.

She whinged "Scottish democracy will not be denied. Today’s ruling blocks one route to Scotland’s voice being heard on independence - but in a democracy our voice cannot and will not be silenced."

Now Sturgeon says she will use the next general election as a de facto referendum on independence. That's just ridiculous because SNP is the majority party. Therefore, it will attract the most votes. That doesn't mean Scottish voters want independence. Maybe it's time for the SNP to turn its attention to running the country, which seems to be in a bit of a mess at the moment.
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I agree with you that the case for Scotland wanting independence is not wholly proven - yet.

But I have sympathy with their position. Scotland consistently gets Governments it did not vote for, and was dragged out of the EU against its wishes. If the SNP had no mandate from the electorate, it might be different. I'm not sure how many elections across different formats they need to win emphatically before people south of the Border take their wishes seriously.

If it were the other way around - would you want to be tethered to the shitshow that we call governance in England? You would opt for something different if you could, and most of the people clamouring for an early GE want the chance to do precisely that. The Scottish position isn't really much different.
 
Got a feeling when she said that the SNP is bigger than any one person in it including herself that she is thinking of quitting as leader next year. Then maybe retiring to her second home in Portugal.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I agree with you that the case for Scotland wanting independence is not wholly proven - yet.

But I have sympathy with their position. Scotland consistently gets Governments it did not vote for, and was dragged out of the EU against its wishes. If the SNP had no mandate from the electorate, it might be different. I'm not sure how many elections across different formats they need to win emphatically before people south of the Border take their wishes seriously.

If it were the other way around - would you want to be tethered to the shitshow that we call governance in England? You would opt for something different if you could, and most of the people clamouring for an early GE want the chance to do precisely that. The Scottish position isn't really much different.
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If you look at it in that way, London "was dragged out of the EU" against its wishes. I don't hear the good people of London forever demanding another referendum even if they feel peeved about the Brexit vote. And yes I would rather be tethered to the governance in England than the catastrophe going on north of the border. At the end of the day, I'm not even convinced that Scots want to be cut loose from the financial and economic lifeline that is Westminster.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
I look at it as a marriage really. If one party wants out then the other party can’t stop them.
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But what it's not binary is it - 3 out 5 major parties in Scotland want to remain part of the UK and the SNP & Greens want to leave.

And in the last referendum, the majority of the population voted to remain part of the UK.

As I said, I'm indifferent about Scotland leaving; they know they will struggle to get into the EU, they know they will use Sterling (which may as well be the US Dollar for all the influence they will have) they know there will be a hard border and so on as we've seen with the UK leaving the EU - IF after all that they decide they are better off as a nation of 5 million then fair do's.

However, within the law of the land which they operate, the Scottish Government don't have the power to do what they wanted.

The SNP have been in power since 2007 and they really need to focus on using the powers they do have to make Scotland the best it can be.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
and was dragged out of the EU against its wishes. something different if you could,
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2014 - So Scotland do you want to stay part of the UK and all the decisions it makes along the way, or do you want to become your own country and do your own thing?

We’ll stay as part of the UK thanks, knowing that we’re tied into all the decisions the UK as a whole makes.

2016 - The Uk will leave the EU after a nationwide vote.

“Dragged out against their wishes” stop blithering utter nonsense.
 
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I yhiught indyref was a once in generation vote ,bit like Brexit

As an AngloScot I think Sturgeon is goung to have to go

Sge needs to demonstrate the SNP can run the country rather than vang the populist drum about the rotten English

Unfortunately in Scotland there is a string anti English sentiment. Not sure why but I have come across it countless tines in my visits to see relatives etc ( must say my experience relates to Glasgow, West Scotland)

There is a part of me says give them independence but a hard independence. Oil has gone but ghey do OK in financial services and have a good record in manufacturing but that's largely gone

They think they would emerge like one of ghe Nordic countries ,I suspect the economy would be more akin to Greece in 10 years.That's only when I see the krankie on TV, Mt more reasoned view is we are all better off as part of the UK
 
Thatseasider said:
2014 - So Scotland do you want to stay part of the UK and all the decisions it makes along the way, or do you want to become your own country and do your own thing?

We’ll stay as part of the UK thanks, knowing that we’re tied into all the decisions the UK as a whole makes.

2016 - The Uk will leave the EU after a nationwide vote.

“Dragged out against their wishes” stop blithering utter nonsense.
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Mushroom Baz doesn't respect referendum results. He thought the Stains were ok though for some strange reason.
 
Trammo said:
Mushroom Baz doesn't respect referendum results. He thought the Stains were ok though for some strange reason.
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The quote that will always live with me was, “ I want the Oyston’s to succeed, because if they succeed BFC succeed”.

A total buffoon and can’t believe he has the gall to show his face on here after all he said during those times.
 
tommytwojags said:
If you look at it in that way, London "was dragged out of the EU" against its wishes. I don't hear the good people of London forever demanding another referendum even if they feel peeved about the Brexit vote. And yes I would rather be tethered to the governance in England than the catastrophe going on north of the border. At the end of the day, I'm not even convinced that Scots want to be cut loose from the financial and economic lifeline that is Westminster.
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Well, if you think that what passes for government in Westminster is better than its Scottish equivalent then there isn't much I can say other than that I think your judgement is badly flawed. You strike me as someone who starts from his innate prejudices and then works backwards to justify them.
 
Thatseasider said:
2014 - So Scotland do you want to stay part of the UK and all the decisions it makes along the way, or do you want to become your own country and do your own thing?

We’ll stay as part of the UK thanks, knowing that we’re tied into all the decisions the UK as a whole makes.

2016 - The Uk will leave the EU after a nationwide vote.

“Dragged out against their wishes” stop blithering utter nonsense.
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The bit in bold wasn't on the referendum ballot and you know it. Have you never heard of Scottish devolution?

As for the rest of it - Scotland voted roughly 2:1 to stay in the EU. Go and check if you don't believe me.
 
Trammo said:
Got a feeling when she said that the SNP is bigger than any one person in it including herself that she is thinking of quitting as leader next year. Then maybe retiring to her second home in Portugal.
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Hope she has a EU passport otherwise she won't be retiring permanently there....
 
basilrobbie3 said:
The bit in bold wasn't on the referendum ballot and you know it. Have you never heard of Scottish devolution?

As for the rest of it - Scotland voted roughly 2:1 to stay in the EU. Go and check if you don't believe me.
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Do you mean to say you think the Scottish people couldn’t work out for themselves that if they remained part of the UK they’d be joined to any future UK decisions? Maybe they should have had the ballot spell out that they’d need to keep the pound and the Union Jack as well as millions of other connotations 🤷‍♂️ Maybe the Scot’s couldn’t have figured that out themselves.

So regardless of how the vote on EU membership fell within the boundaries of Scotland, surely you understand the principle of a national vote? A nation they explicitly stated they were a part of.
 
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Thatseasider said:
Do you mean to say you think the Scottish people couldn’t work out for themselves that if they remained part of the UK they’d be joined to any future UK decisions? Maybe they should have have the ballot spell out that they’d need to keep the pound and the Union Jack as well 🤷‍♂️ Maybe the Scot’s couldn’t have figured that out themselves.

So regardless of how the vote on EU membership fell within the boundaries of Scotland, surely you understand the principle of a national vote?
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I see you're ignoring my original point. If the boot was on the other foot, and you lived in a country that consistently voted for one thing but was forced to accept the opposite because of demography - would you like it? And if you didn't, would you campaign for change? That is all the SNP are doing and they have a perfect right to make their case.

The Government down here are prevaricating because they know that - having made a game changing decision in 2016 - they might not carry the vote North of the Border, if there was one. There is no point of principle at stake for hem, just a desire not to be embarrassed and break up what increasingly looks like an artificial Union.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I see you're ignoring my original point.
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I see you ignore the point that completely nullifies your argument.

If I lived in a nation that constantly moved in a direction against the area I lived in and then I was presented with a chance to leave that nation, I might vote to leave it.

But if I’m part of that nation short of an uprising and civil disobedience I’d have to live in that nation with all the decision it makes.

But I never made the argument the SNP shouldn’t campaign to leave the UK. I was scoffing at your obnoxious point that Scotland was dragged against their wills out of the EU.

London voted to leave, offer it a chance to leave the UK?

You seem to be struggling to grasp a simple point, or maybe you can and you’d just rather dance around it with words you think are fancy.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Well, if you think that what passes for government in Westminster is better than its Scottish equivalent then there isn't much I can say other than that I think your judgement is badly flawed. You strike me as someone who starts from his innate prejudices and then works backwards to justify them.
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I do. Here's 101 reasons for that, not that I agree with them all. There's at least... err... one reason I would take issue with.

www.scottishconservatives.com

101 Failures of the SNP in Government

For 14 years, it has been nothing but failure after failure from the SNP.
www.scottishconservatives.com www.scottishconservatives.com
 
Thatseasider said:
I see you ignore the point that completely nullifies your argument.

If I lived in a nation that constantly moved in a direction against the area I lived in and then I was presented with a chance to leave that nation, I might vote to leave it.

But if I’m part of that nation short of an uprising and civil disobedience I’d have to live in that nation with all the decision it makes.

But I never made the argument the SNP shouldn’t campaign to leave the UK. I was scoffing at your obnoxious point that Scotland was dragged against their wills out of the EU.

London voted to leave, offer it a chance to leave the UK?

You seem to be struggling to grasp a simple point, or maybe you can and you’d just rather dance around it with words you think are fancy.
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I kew you'd notice the fancy words. Damn it.

I quoted you facts about the EU referendum in Scotland, which - unlike London - is a nation state, as well as being an administrative region. If you find facts "obnoxious", that's your problem, isn't it?

Anyway, I'm out. The Westminster Government will keep kicking this can of worms down the road, at least until the next GE at least.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I kew you'd notice the fancy words. Damn it.

I quoted you facts about the EU referendum in Scotland, which - unlike London - is a nation state, as well as being an administrative region. If you find facts "obnoxious", that's your problem, isn't it?

Anyway, I'm out. The Westminster Government will keep kicking this can of worms down the road, at least until the next GE at least.
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A wise tactical retreat from a losing situation.

There’s hope for you yet. 👏
 
TSSeasider said:
But what it's not binary is it - 3 out 5 major parties in Scotland want to remain part of the UK and the SNP & Greens want to leave.

And in the last referendum, the majority of the population voted to remain part of the UK.

As I said, I'm indifferent about Scotland leaving; they know they will struggle to get into the EU, they know they will use Sterling (which may as well be the US Dollar for all the influence they will have) they know there will be a hard border and so on as we've seen with the UK leaving the EU - IF after all that they decide they are better off as a nation of 5 million then fair do's.

However, within the law of the land which they operate, the Scottish Government don't have the power to do what they wanted.

The SNP have been in power since 2007 and they really need to focus on using the powers they do have to make Scotland the best it can be.
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As I said - it’s like a marriage/divorce.

Husband to wife.

It’s much more complicated than that.

And you can’t make your mind up anyway.

As I said, I’m indifferent about whether you leave me or not, but clearly you’ll be much worse off with that foreign bloke (if he’ll have you) and without me.

Anyway the law says I have to consent to the divorce. And I won’t.

So why don’t you just get back into the kitchen and focus on what you should really be doing. You really need to up your game in that department.

And then the hubby wonders why the missus keeps talking about divorce.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
As I said - it’s like a marriage/divorce.

Husband to wife.

It’s much more complicated than that.

And you can’t make your mind up anyway.

As I said, I’m indifferent about whether you leave me or not, but clearly you’ll be much worse off with that foreign bloke (if he’ll have you) and without me.

Anyway the law says I have to consent to the divorce. And I won’t.

So why don’t you just get back into the kitchen and focus on what you should really be doing. You really need to up your game in that department.

And then the hubby wonders why the missus keeps talking about divorce.
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But you promised last time you asked everyone on your side of the family you'd stop nagging about how bad it is for the next 25 years....

And to be honest, I'd much prefer you spend time looking after their health, education,safety and income which appear to have gone downhill whilst you've been plotting to explain why you've gone back on your promise not to keep nagging, than wasting your time in the kitchen....

And before you have another go about it being ALL my fault; your side of the family get far more money than mine and have for decades.

And you wonder why the husband's side of the family think, I wish she'd just shut up and get on with the job in hand.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I agree with you that the case for Scotland wanting independence is not wholly proven - yet.

But I have sympathy with their position. Scotland consistently gets Governments it did not vote for, and was dragged out of the EU against its wishes. If the SNP had no mandate from the electorate, it might be different. I'm not sure how many elections across different formats they need to win emphatically before people south of the Border take their wishes seriously.

If it were the other way around - would you want to be tethered to the shitshow that we call governance in England? You would opt for something different if you could, and most of the people clamouring for an early GE want the chance to do precisely that. The Scottish position isn't really much different.
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Suggest you move there if you feel so strongly…..the reality previously was Labour held Scotland by a country mile and then the UK Parliament by doing so in a good number of years in my lifetime which started way back in 51.Most of us accept these things happen and trust( now a days that has become more and more difficult to accept sadly) that who ever is in power works for the benefit of us all as best it can,after all you are never going to please everyone.
By the way have a good look at the powers that are already have been passed to the Scottish Parliament.
What I will say this woman has done more to damage the bond between Scotland and the rest of the Uk than anyone for many many years.Maybe her desire is to whip up hatred.
 
TSSeasider said:
But you promised last time you asked everyone on your side of the family you'd stop nagging about how bad it is for the next 25 years....

And to be honest, I'd much prefer you spend time looking after their health, education,safety and income which appear to have gone downhill whilst you've been plotting to explain why you've gone back on your promise not to keep nagging, than wasting your time in the kitchen....

And before you have another go about it being ALL my fault; your side of the family get far more money than mine and have for decades.

And you wonder why the husband's side of the family think, I wish she'd just shut up and get on with the job in hand.
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This is beginning to sound like a dysfunctional family.

Which was my point really.
 
TSSeasider said:
She is an absolute master at double speak.

"I won't give up on democracy" as though the previous 'once in a generation' referendum wasn't democratic.

I absolutely believe in the right to self-determination and I've no great feelings one way or the other to having another referendum and more broadly Scottish independence, but my God she can spin the truth to a level which would make Tony Blair blush.
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Fully agree. I well remember her "once in a generation" quotes. They appeared regularly in 2014. The nationalists are ruining Scotland in Government and have nothing to say beyond their one issue dogma.
 
poolseasider said:
Until they pay back the debt from this pandemic I wouldn't allow one anyway.
You can see what would happen they'd sod off and leave all us idiot English paying their share.
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I know it's an outrage . . .all them smelly jocks sat in their Y fronts all day eating deep fried Mars bars.

Not a single one of the lazy sods pays any tax to the UK government and deserves nowt back.
 
Leither said:
I know it's an outrage . . .all them smelly jocks sat in their Y fronts all day eating deep fried Mars bars.

Not a single one of the lazy sods pays any tax to the UK government and deserves nowt back.
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Who said that?
I'm quite sure my Scottish wife and the family members we visited the other week pay plenty of tax.

My Grandkids ( who ain't even born yet)will be paying the debt for this pandemic in years to come and every single one of the nation's who had a piece of the pie should help pay it back.
 
poolseasider said:
Who said that?
I'm quite sure my Scottish wife and the family members we visited the other week pay plenty of tax.

My Grandkids ( who ain't even born yet)will be paying the debt for this pandemic in years to come and every single one of the nation's who had a piece of the pie should help pay it back.
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If you want to know one of the people who had a very big chunk of the pie you might want to Google Michelle Mone.
 
Loco said:
Massive fail on this for the Sturgeon-led SNP.
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Correct - I've lost all respect I had for her with this constant focus on independence.

I moved to Edinburgh over 20 years ago and have seen my kids go through comprehensive schools here . . . when the oldest started high school the school was fantastic but by the time my youngest left the standard had deteriorated rapidly. I point the finger at Sturgeon for this.

The school they attended was voted the best state school in Scotland twice whilst they were there . . . God help the worst!!

And don't get me started on the trams
 
Thatseasider said:
I see you ignore the point that completely nullifies your argument.

If I lived in a nation that constantly moved in a direction against the area I lived in and then I was presented with a chance to leave that nation, I might vote to leave it.

But if I’m part of that nation short of an uprising and civil disobedience I’d have to live in that nation with all the decision it makes.

But I never made the argument the SNP shouldn’t campaign to leave the UK. I was scoffing at your obnoxious point that Scotland was dragged against their wills out of the EU.

London voted to leave, offer it a chance to leave the UK?

You seem to be struggling to grasp a simple point, or maybe you can and you’d just rather dance around it with words you think are fancy.
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London voted to remain.
 
Thatseasider said:
www.bbc.co.uk

EU referendum: The result in maps and charts - BBC News

How did the Leave camp clinch victory in the referendum on the UK's membership of the EU after what was a very closely fought contest?
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Rewrite history if you want.
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From the piece you posted

The Remain campaign, in contrast, dominated in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The highest share of the vote achieved by the Remain camp was in Gibraltar, which is not shown on the map above.
Seven of the 10 areas with the highest share of the vote for Remain were in London, including Lambeth, Hackney and Haringey, all of which polled over 75% to stay in the European Union.
 
Wizaard said:
From the piece you posted

The Remain campaign, in contrast, dominated in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The highest share of the vote achieved by the Remain camp was in Gibraltar, which is not shown on the map above.
Seven of the 10 areas with the highest share of the vote for Remain were in London, including Lambeth, Hackney and Haringey, all of which polled over 75% to stay in the European Union.
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Jesus I’ve had complete brain fog.

I’ve had covid for the last three weeks which is all I can blame it on. I meant to argue London remained which is why I put the article one and I’m not sure why I put that in my original post. 😂. Jesus course London remained. I thought you were saying London left.

I’ve lost the plot.

Sorry mate, Covid really had effected my cognitive functions which arnt the best at the best of times.
 
Thatseasider said:
Jesus I’ve had complete brain fog.

I’ve had covid for the last three weeks which is all I can blame it on. I meant to argue London remained which is why I put the article one and I’m not sure why I put that in my original post. 😂. Jesus course London remained. I thought you were saying London left.

I’ve lost the plot.

Sorry mate, Covid really had effected my cognitive functions which arnt the best at the best of times.
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No problem. Get well soon.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Scots weren’t barred from putting their snout in the trough. That’s because we’re a United Kingdom. 👍🇬🇧👍🇬🇧

But I’d like everyone who benefited from the pandemic, regardless of nationality, to pay back what they owe.
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I think it goes beyond owed, it was embezzled/defrauded. Criminal charges and seized assets (over and above what they took to cover investigations etc).
If we hit them hard and make an example of them maybe others will think twice in future
 
Thatseasider said:
Jesus I’ve had complete brain fog.

I’ve had covid for the last three weeks which is all I can blame it on. I meant to argue London remained which is why I put the article one and I’m not sure why I put that in my original post. 😂. Jesus course London remained. I thought you were saying London left.

I’ve lost the plot.

Sorry mate, Covid really had effected my cognitive functions which arnt the best at the best of times.
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Hope you get better soon , mate.

I wonder if this is the Government's problem, too? 😂
 
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