Is attitude more important than skill

I think attitude is more important. While you get players with natural ability, quite often the top players are so good precisely because they practice, relentlessly. Remember Beckham's free kicks. It was relentless practicing.
Practice makes perfect, and that's down to attitude. Does anyone think James Milner would have played so long at the top level without a first class attitude? He's decent, but there are many more technically gifted players that he's displaced in a starting 11 over the years.
 
There's simply no substitute for hard work. The greatest players work harder than everyone else and that's what makes them the best. Ronaldo's physique didn't just happen. He's taken his natural talents and squeezed every ounce from it through commitment. The same goes for Messi who is a different physical type, but understands what level of work rate he needs to make up for it.



It's no different to any other walk of life really. Hard work and effort will ALWAYS be rewarded. It may take time and the rewards may be different depending on the individual, but sooner or later it will happen.

The world is full of lazy people blaming others for their own limitations. Sport is no different.
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
'Some people achieve greatness with remarkably little effort.' I think that's a bit of a myth - name one person who has achieved greatness with very little effort. The Cheeky Girls don't count by the way.
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The Cheeky Girls grafted for years, put in many many hard yards.

Possibly.

Boris johnson. Arsed about for years, backed Brexit against his previous 'conviction', became Prime Minister. 👍
 
straightatthewall said:
There's simply no substitute for hard work. The greatest players work harder than everyone else and that's what makes them the best. Ronaldo's physique didn't just happen. He's taken his natural talents and squeezed every ounce from it through commitment. The same goes for Messi who is a different physical type, but understands what level of work rate he needs to make up for it.



It's no different to any other walk of life really. Hard work and effort will ALWAYS be rewarded. It may take time and the rewards may be different depending on the individual, but sooner or later it will happen.

The world is full of lazy people blaming others for their own limitations. Sport is no different.
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There’s many more hard working people getting nowhere because they have nothing (beyond ‘effort’) to offer.

In fairness, it’s a ridiculous question because in reality there are various shades of grey… there are extreme talents who get to the absolute top with attitude issues and less effort than others… there are people who improve what they have by extra effort… there are people who put in loads of effort and it makes little difference and every possible combination and contrast you can think of…

Ultimately talent / ability is the combination of what someone produces by whatever means they have at their disposal… Physical or Mental…

Some players are better because they are thoughtful and intelligent, but lack the physical attributes for example…

But… as the saying goes.. you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
 
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As a massive reader of sporting autobiographies the thing that has struck me most about successful athletes/players is the sacrifices they made in their youth in their endeavors to be successful in their chosen field, the number of them who were training on a friday night whilst their pals were drinking cider down the park or at parties is often a reoccurring theme. Also having a good support system with regards parents/guardians able and willing to transport them is a massive help as well. On a personal level both my daughters play netball for Cheshire and have trawled around "professional" clubs like Thunder and Rhinos without success and the older one has given up whilst my younger one continued trying out despite repeated knock backs and with massive support from her mother and a little from myself has finally been taken on by Severn Stars which means 2 training sessions a week ( one @ 7.30 pm on a friday for 2 hours!!). I don't know who was prouder my wife or daughter to be honest>
 
straightatthewall said:
Of course it's natural talent, combined with loads and loads of practice.
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but loads and loads of practice is all relative isn't it? Every professional footballer (sportsperson) would have had loads and loads of practice...They might have practiced with a bad attitude though, regularly tipped up late, gone rogue on occasion and got pissed with their mates etc..

The question the O/P has raised is whether attitude is more important than skill or ability..

Let's say for example that a particular player (player A) has a bad attitude, so maybe tips up for training late, is temperamental and gets into trouble on the pitch, but has incredible ability etc.. etc.. Then another player (Player B) is the consummate professional (with as stated in the O/P the basic skills to be a professional footballer), practices extra etc...

Could player A be better than player B?

I'd say not only could Player A be better than Player B that his so called attitude problems may well be a contributory factor to his personal success.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
The thread is about attitude vs ability (not effort vs ability).

There are loads of top sportsmen who have failed to fully apply themselves, but who have still excelled.

George Best, Gaza, Maradonna, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Andrew Flintoff…
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'Fully apply themselves' - that again is a hard one to quantify. Best played on the streets every hour he could growing up and then for
Goforgoal said:
I totally disagree, just one example Ronnie O’ Sullivan made his first 100 break in competition at age 10. If that isn’t a natural aptitude or talent, I don’t know what is.
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I did alter my initial statement further down the thread, but every talented player has worked hard at some point, regardless how they appear to be effortless as an adult. The two go hand in hand, no talented person has ever been successful without hard work.
The harder you work, the more talented you get.
 
voyeur said:
The Cheeky Girls grafted for years, put in many many hard yards.

Possibly.

Boris johnson. Arsed about for years, backed Brexit against his previous 'conviction', became Prime Minister. 👍
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"yards" is a bit of an exaggeration, even for them
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
'Fully apply themselves' - that again is a hard one to quantify. Best played on the streets every hour he could growing up and then for

I did alter my initial statement further down the thread, but every talented player has worked hard at some point, regardless how they appear to be effortless as an adult. The two go hand in hand, no talented person has ever been successful without hard work.
The harder you work, the more talented you get.
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Correct, sorry I didn’t see your later post. As you say there is no substitute for hard work and dedication, but a natural talent goes a long way too. It’s a pity some very talented people don’t apply themselves and make the most of their gift.
 
Goforgoal said:
Correct, sorry I didn’t see your later post. As you say there is no substitute for hard work and dedication, but a natural talent goes a long way too. It’s a pity some very talented people don’t apply themselves and make the most of their gift.
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I agree - but I also think saying to someone ‘you were lucky to be born with such talent’ robs them of the application and efforts that have gone into being excellent at their chosen skill. Speaking from a teaching point of view, I think it can also make children think that they weren’t born with a talent for something and therefore can never be good at it.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
The thread is about attitude vs ability (not effort vs ability).

There are loads of top sportsmen who have failed to fully apply themselves, but who have still excelled.

George Best, Gaza, Maradonna, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Andrew Flintoff…
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Of those examples you quote, I would say that they got lazy or showed a poor attitude after they became successful. Glory went to their heads. Or they thought they had made it and could relax, perhaps. But in their early years they certainly had the right attitude to go with their talent to get to the top.

I recall watching a TV programme about Gascoigne recovering from the cruciate knee operation after getting injured in the FA Cup final against Forest. The determination, work and effort he put in to rebuild muscle and get fit again was phenomenal. And mostly on his own, such as with weights, not training with other players.
 
The harder you try the luckier you get.Yes talent is required however when harnessed to a desire to constantly improve you have something.

This is almost the Critchley BFC manual as he puts great emphasis on the attitude element in particular.

It perhaps explains what we sometimes see as obscure signings and team selections.

Sum of parts and all that
 
Archibald Knox said:
Of those examples you quote, I would say that they got lazy or showed a poor attitude after they became successful. Glory went to their heads. Or they thought they had made it and could relax, perhaps. But in their early years they certainly had the right attitude to go with their talent to get to the top.

I recall watching a TV programme about Gascoigne recovering from the cruciate knee operation after getting injured in the FA Cup final against Forest. The determination, work and effort he put in to rebuild muscle and get fit again was phenomenal. And mostly on his own, such as with weights, not training with other players.
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So of the example that was used in the O/P (namely KaiKai) didn't also have the right attitude in the early years? The fact is we simply have no idea, because people are generally talking bollocks.

Every player (individual) has a whole series of attributes which collectively add up to make them what they are... What works for one player / sportsperson might not work at all for another.

When a player is young, it's entirely possible that they get pushed and cried along by the attitude and enthusiasm of their parents (rather than themselves)...

As you mention, he determination and effort showed by Gazza to recover (in the programme you watched) was no doubt phenomenal, but equally phenomenal was his ability to completely fuck it all up and act like a prize clown...

To my mind, I don't see how people can just trot off this idea that attitude is more important than ability without any consideration as to what it means....

If attitude were more important than ability, then why aren't there any one legged Professional Footballers?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
As you mention, he determination and effort showed by Gazza to recover (in the programme you watched) was no doubt phenomenal, but equally phenomenal was his ability to completely fuck it all up and act like a prize clown...
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To be fair, Gascoigne had mental health issues from a very young age. Initially, football was a calming influence on him and was his focus, but as he got famous it began to exert more mental pressures on him, leading him into self-destructive behaviour. For example, he always had weight problems due to a lack of control even when young. Then in later years the alcoholism took over. As such, perhaps Gascoigne is not the best example to use in a discussion about attitude vs ability. He went to extremes in both.
 
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Archibald Knox said:
To be fair, Gascoigne had mental health issues from a very young age. Initially, football was a calming influence on him and was his focus, but as he got famous it began to exert more mental pressures on him, leading him into self-destructive behaviour. For example, he always had weight problems due to a lack of control even when young. Then in later years the alcoholism took over. As such, perhaps Gascoigne is not the best example to use in a discussion about attitude vs ability. He went to extremes in both.
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I'm just not entirely sure how you could say definitively that one thing is 'more important'...

I mean in the O/P we make the assumption that a player would have what is described as a 'basic level of skill'... So equally and for balance you'd also assume that the individual also had a basic level of application / attitude. It seem obvious that a 1 legged man could never aspire to be a professional footballer in the same way that a 40 stone man who had amazing skills couldn't either.

So to my mind it is more a question of whether extreme ability (and a fairly basic standard of effort) would 'trump' extreme effort (and a basic standard of ability). I'
Archibald Knox said:
He must have had... he played for Palace in the Prem. But, admittedly, only one match in each of three successive seasons.
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And it's not necessarily the case that his lack of consistency was down to a failure to apply himself.... It's perfectly possible that he just didn't quite have the ability to perform at a consistent level.
 
Perhaps not 40 stone, but certainly 26 stone!

The biggest goalkeeper in representative football was the England international (1 cap) William Henry `Fatty' Foulke (1874-1916), who stood 1.90m 6ft 3in and weighed 141kg or 22st 3lb. His last games were for Bradford City, by which time he was 165kg or 26st. He once stopped a game by snapping the cross bar. William Foulke was nicknamed both "Fatty" and "Colossus" he played for Sheffield United, Chelsea and Bradford City.

The goalkeeper played in three FA Cup Finals in 1899, 1901 and 1902, winning twice. Like many sportsmen of the time he was also a keen cricketer and represented Derbyshire in four first-class matches in 1900 scoring one half-century.
www.guinnessworldrecords.com

Heaviest goalkeeper (Football)

The Guinness World Records Official site with ultimate record-breaking facts & achievements. Do you want to set a world record? Are you Officially Amazing?
www.guinnessworldrecords.com www.guinnessworldrecords.com

Now he really was a true example of talent outweighing attitude ! 😂 ... (pun intended).
Though they were very different times. The wiki article on Fatty Foulke is fun as well.
en.m.wikipedia.org

William Foulke (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
tangysider said:
Keogh has lost his speed if he actually ever had any, but Ii am sure would rather take a thunderbolt of a shot into his face that allow the ball to pass him.
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Keogh is a winner who cares - I will forgive him his lack of pace because he makes up for it in so many different areas. Big fan.
 
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