Madine

[td53]

I'm sorry but I don't see this. It's like the 'he's good at physicality' trope too. Just not true but I understand some will clamour not to be wholly negative about a Pool stalwart. Feels like clutching at straws to me.

I watched the Liverpool away Prem game on DVD last night. Missed it first time around as it was my son's christening that day, we decided to watch it together for the first time yesterday. Now that first half was a masterclass in holding long balls up or ensuring they are headed to another Pool player. DJ and Varney mostly finding each other, even when being jostled by taller players and being ten plus yards apart. Yet it hardly ever gets mentioned as there were so many other elements to that performance which were so good as well eg the pressing and slick passing/movement.

We really do need to disabuse ourselves of the idea that GM offers rare and unique abilities, so subtle that they mostly go unseen by the untrained eye.

It's so subtle that it's statistically evident over the course of his career. On Tuesday alone, he won 6 aerial duels and probably several more balls he took on his chest. He turned the ball round the corner to make our only chance, when CJ crossed and eventually Carey put it wide. I'm not going to argue that other players in football don't have better skills, or make use of the ball better (though he's very aware in general of what is around him) but he has a singular, statistically verifiable ability to win possession of a ball in the air against a defender (or defensively against an attacker) - that's not glamorous or especially thrilling to watch, but it's nonetheless one of the few aspects of our squad, where we have a player who you can rely on, week after week to be better at *something* than most other players in the league. Ultimately, that's why, despite all his other shortcomings, manager after manager has ended up relying on Gaz and not a more well rounded player who lacks a stand out attribute.

We need to disabuse ourselves of absurd notion that without Beesley for the season that we can survive relying entirely on two strikers who are similar in style in Lavery and Yates, neither of whom offer a lot in the air.

Gary should have been plan B - the Burnley game was absolutely textbook in terms of how we should have used madine - 30 minutes of intense physicality. He terrified their defence.

I know I have built a mildly comic persona based on Gaz but if I'm utterly objective, it's definitely time for Gary to move on in summer unless he's going to accept a bit part role and move into coaching (which I'm not sure is his destiny) - but till then, he is literally our only forward who can win the ball regularly if we go direct - which we will and will have to at times.

The idea that somehow we can always be a slick one touch passing side if we just chuck all the flair on and that's all we need to do in every minute of every game is fanciful at best. Yes, Poveda has had a couple of games. Yes Rogers looks quite handy, Yes, Bowler is Bowler and yes, Mick, please don't waste that, but we sure as hell could do with a few cameos like Burnley where he comes on and changes the direction of the game utterly, or few games like Coventry where he's the fulcrum of everything because his centre back just can't get round him.

He's a daft sod. He's got a lot of flaws. He's an odd player in a lot of ways. (that's why I like him - cos he doesn't really make sense as a modern forward but sort of works nonetheless - at least sometimes)

He could also be as big a part in us staying up as anyone else.

 

[rockontommy]

Correct.

Baffles me that people seem to think he can hold the ball up just because he’s a bigger bloke than some others.

I actually think Yates holds the ball up and brings others into play better than Madine.

Yup. Sometimes he can steal yards IF he wins a free kick. That type of shit belongs to other sports though imho.

 

[td53]

Correct.

Baffles me that people seem to think he can hold the ball up just because he’s a bigger bloke than some others.

I actually think Yates holds the ball up and brings others into play better than Madine.

Over the course of several seasons, when Madine doesn't play we literally have an issue with our strikers not *touching the ball*

If you don't believe me look it up. There was a game last year where I think Yates touched it 8 times and lavery about 6 - possibly Swansea away.

We're generally weaker than other teams in midfield. However we mix up our players we struggle (over the whole of the championship run this time round) to win the midfield battle and earn the right to play the kind of football that Yates and (even more so) Lavery need.

Yates is technically wonderful. He's a really, really good footballer. No question that he's more able than Madine in an all round sense. YOu cannot just twang the ball at him though. The problem we have had in the majority of our games (equally true under Critchley) is that we've ended up under pressure and needing to go over midfield direct to the front to attack.

This is the point of Madine. He signifies other weaknesses. He played so much last year because the midfield wasn't good enough to make Yates/Lavery work regularly. Some this season. His one great attribute outweighs his deficits because it has fitted the need of the team in a way that no one else has. We averaged more points with him than without him last year for certain. I don't know this season tbh.

However you look at it, if your strikers aren't *touching* the ball, it's a moot point what their abilities are. I will totally accept that just because Gaz touched the ball more on a game by game basis doesn't mean he did more with it - but it's the foundation of possession higher up the pitch.

Again, this is me trying not to be all one eyed about Madine - it's just me trying to say why he's been important and for the remainder of the season, we really could do with him continuing that.

There's doubtless games where we can play football and yes, Yates, Poveda Bowler etc is absolutely the way to go. But there'll also be games where those players struggle and we're under pressure with no out ball and by god, do we need a bit of physicality up front. Gary is literally the only option. There is no one else.

 

[Camberwell1]

Rate , captain and Madine are words which should never be used together in one sentence.

If that’s his level of leadership skills I never want to see him play for us again - Capt Suspended and Gone

 

[Tangerine_Dream]

Over the course of several seasons, when Madine doesn't play we literally have an issue with our strikers not *touching the ball*

If you don't believe me look it up. There was a game last year where I think Yates touched it 8 times and lavery about 6 - possibly Swansea away.

We're generally weaker than other teams in midfield. However we mix up our players we struggle (over the whole of the championship run this time round) to win the midfield battle and earn the right to play the kind of football that Yates and (even more so) Lavery need.

Yates is technically wonderful. He's a really, really good footballer. No question that he's more able than Madine in an all round sense. YOu cannot just twang the ball at him though. The problem we have had in the majority of our games (equally true under Critchley) is that we've ended up under pressure and needing to go over midfield direct to the front to attack.

This is the point of Madine. He signifies other weaknesses. He played so much last year because the midfield wasn't good enough to make Yates/Lavery work regularly. Some this season. His one great attribute outweighs his deficits because it has fitted the need of the team in a way that no one else has. We averaged more points with him than without him last year for certain. I don't know this season tbh.

However you look at it, if your strikers aren't *touching* the ball, it's a moot point what their abilities are. I will totally accept that just because Gaz touched the ball more on a game by game basis doesn't mean he did more with it - but it's the foundation of possession higher up the pitch.

Again, this is me trying not to be all one eyed about Madine - it's just me trying to say why he's been important and for the remainder of the season, we really could do with him continuing that.

There's doubtless games where we can play football and yes, Yates, Poveda Bowler etc is absolutely the way to go. But there'll also be games where those players struggle and we're under pressure with no out ball and by god, do we need a bit of physicality up front. Gary is literally the only option. There is no one else.

Good post, I just don’t agree on the whole - there has been games where he has been immense up top where he’s won most headers or brought it down on his chest and brought others into play - just not often enough for me.

I feel as though he might ‘touch the ball’ more often in certain games but more often than not it bounces off to opposition players and we lose possession, maybe that’s because we don’t get enough bodies around him? But I also think it’s because he just tries to ‘touch the ball’ and hope for the best.

Yates clearly needs the ball played into feet, rather than his swede to be able to do much with it, but when he does, he quickly gets it under control and gets his head up and picks a pass - I think that’s the key difference for me as Madine just doesn’t bring other players into the game as much.

It’ll be interesting to see how we do over the next 4 games but we have to play to Yates’s (and other attacking players) strengths or it’s literally pointless.

 

[td53]

Good post, I just don’t agree on the whole - there has been games where he has been immense up top where he’s won most headers or brought it down on his chest and brought others into play - just not often enough for me.

I feel as though he might ‘touch the ball’ more often in certain games but more often than not it bounces off to opposition players and we lose possession, maybe that’s because we don’t get enough bodies around him? But I also think it’s because he just tries to ‘touch the ball’ and hope for the best.

Yates clearly needs the ball played into feet, rather than his swede to be able to do much with it, but when he does, he quickly gets it under control and gets his head up and picks a pass - I think that’s the key difference for me as Madine just doesn’t bring other players into the game as much.

It’ll be interesting to see how we do over the next 4 games but we have to play to Yates’s (and other attacking players) strengths or it’s literally pointless.

I guess the obvious reply is that as much as Gary doesn't dominate week in, week out, there's been a fair few games where Yates or Lavery might as well not be playing. I don't want to come across as a grammar pedant but I don't think 'touch the ball' needs inverted commas - we had that literal, exact problem last year - Lavery and Yates were completely isolated too many times. They literally weren't touching the ball. it's not a euphamism - it was such a problem that Madine ended up being a key player. It repeated itself again to a degree this year. I worry we'll see that repeated if Mick tries to play Mickball with those two.

I'm really not trying to argue that we should be starting Madine week in/week out. I'm just saying that the 'rip up his contract, he's utter garbage, why do we even have him?' argument is way too shallow. We have him and he (at times) fits very well, precisely because we're *not very good* (certainly in terms of controlling games and dictating play/playing football/having possession) - he isn't what makes us *not very good* - he's the symptom of that, not the cause. Sometimes he's not ideal when we're trying to play a fast counter, but equally, the tactic that got us to a comfortable position last year (an ability to soak up pressure and counter quickly) isn't exactly the most difficult one to stop. Derby for example, twice just decided to not attack and we had literally no answer to that and they picked us off. That was not the only example.

In his own flawed way, Appleton tried to address this, but he soon went back to Madine out of a need to address that his midfield idea (which I liked on paper but didn't work in practice) failed. Add to that the loss of Bowler (the absolute key player to that fast breaking tactic, (whatever BFC*3 might say...) and we end up with the same result. The irony is - Madine is actually a better player when you play some football with him but he ends up as a defacto out ball for a team who can't retain possession so need to get it out quickly.

I posted at the beginning of the year something along the lines of 'if Madine is still plan A, something hasn't gone right' - I guess here we are.
I hope that Gaz being out means that McCarthy has a good think about how to serve Yates and goes with at some combination some of Rogers, Bowler, Poveda and Carey. The latter's abilities as a link between midfield and attack have been a bit forgotten because he's ended up playing a midfield battling role, but he's at his best when he's given the same sort of licence that the others would need to be honest. I want Yates to be the main man, but we've got to set up the midfield properly to enable that.

 

[Dorset Mike]

Good post, I just don’t agree on the whole - there has been games where he has been immense up top where he’s won most headers or brought it down on his chest and brought others into play - just not often enough for me.

I feel as though he might ‘touch the ball’ more often in certain games but more often than not it bounces off to opposition players and we lose possession, maybe that’s because we don’t get enough bodies around him? But I also think it’s because he just tries to ‘touch the ball’ and hope for the best.

Yates clearly needs the ball played into feet, rather than his swede to be able to do much with it, but when he does, he quickly gets it under control and gets his head up and picks a pass - I think that’s the key difference for me as Madine just doesn’t bring other players into the game as much.

It’ll be interesting to see how we do over the next 4 games but we have to play to Yates’s (and other attacking players) strengths or it’s literally pointless.

When you consider Madine's shocking disciplinary record this year, being banned for 7 games at a time of great need, which could have been even worse ala Cardiff match. I dont see BFC taking up the option for him next season.

 

[John Mc]

I am not a big fan of Gary Madine however if my memory serves me right the last time we won a league game he won almost everything in the air at Coventry.....but it was a long time ago

 

[td53]

When you consider Madine's shocking disciplinary record this year, being banned for 7 games at a time of great need, which could have been even worse ala Cardiff match. I dont see BFC taking up the option for him next season.

We won't. I am pretty sure he doesn't want to stay anyway.

 

[rockontommy]

I am not a big fan of Gary Madine however if my memory serves me right the last time we won a league game he won almost everything in the air at Coventry.....but it was a long time ago

He did. That was the point it went pear shaped for Appleton. Madine came off the pitch dead on his feet and clearly needing a rest, Apples stuck him straight back into the next starting XI.