Mr Bates versus the Post office.

Finished it late last night. You’d be hard pushed not to shed a tear.

Justice has not been done though, not with 4 suicides and God knows how many others who have died who were helped along by the stress.

It’s manslaughter at the least for me. The blatant lying and intimidation of the victims at every juncture is so shocking.

It’s a national disgrace. I know the story but I’m shocked at how cruel and deceitful the post office were. Wicked.
 
CompleteControl said:
Fujitsu's role in this whole debacle needs to be highlighted. They knew there were faults in their IT which they tried to hide. Their seniot people were paid serious bonuses at the time for their work with the Post Office.
Click to expand...
Fujitsu still gets awarded large government contracts today. They run the Trader Support Service for example for goods moving GB-NI.
 
I'm hoping tha the woman who is head of the of the P.O. gets the boot ion the end.
Hadn't they the brains to wonder why so many Sub Post Offices were involved?
Did they think there was a conspiracy involving every Sub Post Office in the UK.
Unbelievable.
Can't wait to see how much The P.O. had to pay out.😁
 
Over 700 post office staff with impeccable records suddenly become thieves and no one thought "hang on a minute"?
EVERYONE involved in the cover up should be stripped of baubles and made to serve time for contributing to the injustices those poor people faced, including if possible in law causing death by their actions.
 
Thank god for people like Alan Bates.
He had the tenacity and strength to take the fight to the post office.
Everyone who stood together deserves the upmost credit. I haven't been so gripped by a drama says something but the fact it was true is even more shocking

Paula Vennell and Angela van den Bogerd. How the hell can they look at themselves in the mirror each day?
Evil evil women.

The sad thing is that whilst the PO had Bates to deal with, there will be many more big businesses that are taking advantage of the little man who they know can't or won't fight back.
 
Wizzerboy said:
Thank god for people like Alan Bates.
He had the tenacity and strength to take the fight to the post office.
Everyone who stood together deserves the upmost credit. I haven't been so gripped by a drama says something but the fact it was true is even more shocking

Paula Vennell and Angela van den Bogerd. How the hell can they look at themselves in the mirror each day?
Evil evil women.

The sad thing is that whilst the PO had Bates to deal with, there will be many more big businesses that are taking advantage of the little man who they know can't or won't fight back.
Click to expand...
Paula got a CBE in 2019. My local MP Kevan Jones has actively campaigned for it to be forfeited. She will no doubt have a handsome pension etc
 
Wizzerboy said:
Thank god for people like Alan Bates.
He had the tenacity and strength to take the fight to the post office.
Everyone who stood together deserves the upmost credit. I haven't been so gripped by a drama says something but the fact it was true is even more shocking

Paula Vennell and Angela van den Bogerd. How the hell can they look at themselves in the mirror each day?
Evil evil women.

The sad thing is that whilst the PO had Bates to deal with, there will be many more big businesses that are taking advantage of the little man who they know can't or won't fight back.
Click to expand...
Across the country, in big corporates, there are nasty people quite prepared to shit on others for their own advancement.
 
Watched episodes 3&4 last night plus the documentary that Tim recommended.
Like Lala says, get the hankies out for the last episode but moreso for the documentary as its very real😪
 
At the time of the original court case win by the postmasters, Vennels wrote to the business secretary saying PO lawyers made the decision to prosecute, not her, and that she had been mislead by the Fujitsu executives. Was she totally incompetent and not doing her job then? Talk about trying to swerve responsibility. Interestingly, there is a report this morning that there are dozens of recordings of meetings and communications with Vennels and others are about to exposed. That should be interesting.

I also see that Ed Davey (who was post office minister when the problems and first prosecutions arose) is trying to swerve responsibility. He says he was mislead by post office executives. The postmaster's leader, Alan Bates, said he contacted Davey to ask for a meeting, but Davey wrote back saying there would be no point!
 
Last edited:
bfcpete said:
At the time of the original court case win by the postmasters, Vennels wrote to the business secretary saying PO lawyers made the decision to prosecute, not her, and that she had been mislead by the Fujitsu executives. Was she totally incompetent and not doing her job then? Talk about trying to swerve responsibility. Interestingly, there is a report this morning that there are dozens of recordings of meetings and communications with Vennels and others are about to exposed. That should be interesting.

I also see that Ed Davey (who was post office minister when the problems and first prosecutions arose) is trying to swerve responsibility. He says he was mislead by post office executives. The postmaster's leader, Alan Bates, said he contacted Davey to ask for a meeting, but Davey wrote back saying there would be no point!
Click to expand...
As I've said in an earlier post, thank god for people like Alan Bates.
How many of us would just give up think that there indeed would be no point 😔
That's exactly what MP's and big corporate business' want you to think.

Hopefully, this case has highlighted, that no matter how trivial you think your situation is, fight if you can prove you're in the right.
It's taken the post masters over 20 years to get through this shit and some haven't lived to see the day but the message is fight👍🏻
 
On a very small scale there is a resemblance between Vennels, Post Office and Oyston suing supporters. Both used the fact that having vast amounts of money can be used to avoid justice in the courts of law.
How can anyone believe in a justice system that favours the (rich and large companies) guilty over the average man in the street?.
It's appalling that if you have more money than the victim no matter how many times you've been found guilty you can appeal and go on and on denying any wrongdoing whilst in the safe knowledge knowing that once the other person's money has run out the case against will end. Along with the fact like the subpostmasters even eventually winning doesn't mean you'll get the renumeration or compensation you deserve and still left with massive legal costs to pay.
The bottom line is the fact where corporate crime is concerned against consumers unless extremely wealthy you've got almost certainly no chance of taking a business like The Post Office through the legal system and coming out on top. How on earth can you as the victim be awarded millions in compensation yet still be left with next to nothing. The mind boggles and with little wonder as to how someone like myself could ever take on such a miscarriage of justice in good faith or even able to consider it without having large amounts of money behind me.
Puts a bit of perspective into how Raggy, Smithy and the others were treated and must (still do) feel about such shocking treatment. And as a small footnote Horizon is still used by The Post Office and Royal Mail.
 
That similarity occurred to me S1

Note the solicitors and funders acting for Alan Bates and others took huge risks and I understand it reduced their fees significantly

For context I understand that the PO spent £100m of taxpayers money defending these claims and the deal at mediation was only done against a threat to apply for a re-trial (no doubt knowing this would create funding issues) to create a bargaining position when their backs were up against a wall

I have had a similar thing happen in one of my cases - large insurers threatening in a mediation ( which is confidential ) to bury my clients in costs and then bankrupt them if they lost the case in order to force them to settle on unfavourable terms
 
bfcpete said:
At the time of the original court case win by the postmasters, Vennels wrote to the business secretary saying PO lawyers made the decision to prosecute, not her, and that she had been mislead by the Fujitsu executives. Was she totally incompetent and not doing her job then? Talk about trying to swerve responsibility. Interestingly, there is a report this morning that there are dozens of recordings of meetings and communications with Vennels and others are about to exposed. That should be interesting.
Click to expand...
I don't see why the CEO would be involved in a prosecution decision, but it does seem like Fujitsu have to carry a lot of the blame, having developed software that didn't work properly, then apparently covering that up for their own benefit.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I don't see why the CEO would be involved in a prosecution decision, but it does seem like Fujitsu have to carry a lot of the blame, having developed software that didn't work properly, then apparently covering that up for their own benefit.
Click to expand...
Whilst the CEO may not have decided individual cases, they certainly would have been involved in signing off the prosecution strategy, especially with such publicity around the trials.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I don't see why the CEO would be involved in a prosecution decision, but it does seem like Fujitsu have to carry a lot of the blame, having developed software that didn't work properly, then apparently covering that up for their own benefit.
Click to expand...
It's not one prosecution though is it - it's over seven hundred

At what point does an intelligent person think ' we can't have hundreds of dishonest sub-post office managers ' and having considered that point then react the way the PO then did ?

What surprises me is that less than one hundred have had their convictions quashed. What about the rest ?
 
Lost Seasider said:
I don't see why the CEO would be involved in a prosecution decision, but it does seem like Fujitsu have to carry a lot of the blame, having developed software that didn't work properly, then apparently covering that up for their own benefit.
Click to expand...
I expect nothing less from you, Lost. The concept of the boss being responsible for his/her organisation seems to be out of fashion, yet it is constantly used as the argument for eye watering salary and benefits packages.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
It's not one prosecution though is it - it's over seven hundred

At what point does an intelligent person think ' we can't have hundreds of dishonest sub-post office managers ' and having considered that point then react the way the PO then did ?

What surprises me is that less than one hundred have had their convictions quashed. What about the rest ?
Click to expand...
Did she know that, though? Particularly since the prosecutions were over a number of years, some before her time, is it possible this was hidden from her? (Edit: 1999 - 2015, she joined in 2012, so the vast majority would likely have been before her time, doesn't mean she's not on the hook for their subsequent treatment though).

I only ask, because I don't see what she has to gain by allowing the scandal to continue.

It is indeed surprising that so many convictions appear to remain.
 
Last edited:
TwelveAngryMen said:
It's not one prosecution though is it - it's over seven hundred

At what point does an intelligent person think ' we can't have hundreds of dishonest sub-post office managers ' and having considered that point then react the way the PO then did ?

What surprises me is that less than one hundred have had their convictions quashed. What about the rest ?
Click to expand...
Exactly.

At some point (in an ideal world fairly early on) it should have become clear there were two choices:

1. Either subpostmasters have been ripping us off for years and we missed it. Which makes us look pretty stupid. OR.
2. The new system is a bit crap.

I can only assume that someone senior decided option 1 was manageable (blame it on your predecessor who missed the “massive fraud”). Whereas option 2 would involve blaming the person who signed off on the Horizon software. And authorised all the associate costs. And then group think and the nodding dog syndrome took over. And the deeper you dig yourself, the harder it is to get out.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Exactly.

At some point (in an ideal world fairly early on) it should have become clear there were two choices:

1. Either subpostmasters have been ripping us off for years and we missed it. Which makes us look pretty stupid. OR.
2. The new system is a bit crap.

I can only assume that someone senior decided option 1 was manageable (blame it on your predecessor who missed the “massive fraud”). Whereas option 2 would involve blaming the person who signed off on the Horizon software. And authorised all the associate costs. And then group think and the nodding dog syndrome took over. And the deeper you dig yourself, the harder it is to get out.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that certain bonuses were linked to sorting out the Horizon / sub-postmaster issues as well

The various tactics that seem to have been adopted to quash the sub-postmasters legitimate claims / thwart the Select Committee's investigations (I though Zahawi came across well there) and pursuing prosecutions were beyond reprehensible and I can't believe that strategy wasn't dictated from the very top
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
My understanding is that certain bonuses were linked to sorting out the Horizon / sub-postmaster issues as well

The various tactics that seem to have been adopted to quash the sub-postmasters legitimate claims / thwart the Select Committee's investigations (I though Zahawi came across well there) and pursuing prosecutions were beyond reprehensible and I can't believe that strategy wasn't dictated from the very top
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
My understanding is that certain bonuses were linked to sorting out the Horizon / sub-postmaster issues as well

The various tactics that seem to have been adopted to quash the sub-postmasters legitimate claims / thwart the Select Committee's investigations (I though Zahawi came across well there) and pursuing prosecutions were beyond reprehensible and I can't believe that strategy wasn't dictated from the very top
Click to expand...
Yes. The only excuse I can come up with is that the (temporary - just passing through) senior person/figurehead who came upon the job was greeted with a certain culture and group think. And the easiest option was to “go with the flow”. Instead of saying “Hold on. Something isn’t right here”. Which suggests they weren’t up to the job and should never have been appointed.

If there’s ever a proper investigation I suspect it’ll consist of lots of finger pointing about where the blame lies. Whereas what was needed was someone grabbing it but the scruff of the neck.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Yes. The only excuse I can come up with is that the (temporary - just passing through) senior person/figurehead who came upon the job was greeted with a certain culture and group think. And the easiest option was to “go with the flow”. Instead of saying “Hold on. Something isn’t right here”. Which suggests they weren’t up to the job and should never have been appointed.

If there’s ever a proper investigation I suspect it’ll consist of lots of finger pointing about where the blame lies. Whereas what was needed was someone grabbing it but the scruff of the neck.
Click to expand...
Agreed which then takes us back to the CEO from 2003-2010 aka ' the Invisible Man ' who didn't appear in the drama
 
wow. my original post and such a reaction. brilliant . i did follow the podcast on radio 4 for quite a while. because i was dismissed by Royal Mail after THIRTY TWO years of loyal service. i did nothing wrong . But because i had NOT delivered what we used to call Household deliveries i was charged with THEFT. TWO dickheads came to my home. IN flack jackets. proceeded to take my home apart. i admitted the offence. I was suspended from work. Waited three months to be dismissed.. I was FIFTY years old. NO chance of finding another job. And these c...ts knew it. THEY could have awarded a suspended dismissal . But they didnt . because the line MANAGER had a beef with me. . it was personal and i knew it. Another manager would have given me the benefit of the doubt. To this date i would have earned potentially 300. 000 pounds over the last fourteen years. PLUS having to withdraw my Royal Mail Pension an early age. just to keep my wife and son in a home. So i do know what Royal Mail can do. Post office IS a different organisation but the same decent people try to give a service and these C..Ts wreck peoples lives., 🤢 🤢 🤢 🤢
 
'The Times can reveal that dozens of covert recordings of senior Post Office staff, including Vennells, have been uncovered by the public inquiry into the scandal.
It is understood that the tapes, of which there are believed to be about 80, will be sent to core participants, including postmasters, in the coming days. “They’re conversations with Post Office top brass including Paula Vennells. It’s very damning,” an inquiry source said.'

Looks like Ms Vennells' highly paid legal team (Mishcon de Reya) might have a job on their hands to keep their client out of the brown stuff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top