P&O Ferries

gjr69 said:
Doesn't really answer the question, if 800 British workers are in effect having their contacts of employment torn up why can't the British government do something about it?
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you will find that a lot of the crew dont pay tax re seafearers earnings deductions SED
 
seasiderjohn said:
its not a british company it just employs a small percentage of british crew and they own the ports the vessels are registered overseas I left school and joined the merchant navy so I do know a little bit more on the workings than obviously you do!

Despite maintaining its dominant position for many decades, the decline of the British Empire, the rise of the use of the flag of convenience, and foreign competition led to the decline of the merchant fleet.
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P&O is a British company as are most of its subsidiaries.

It may be owned by a company based in the Middle East but that doesn’t change the location of the employing entity.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
They don’t have the power. It’s up to the interested parties (basically the RMT) to apply to the court for an injunction. Which I think they are doing.
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So a British government that wanted us to have sovereignty, presumably for the benefit of the majority of British people, could change or introduce laws to protect workers from this sort of action.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
P&O is a British company as are most of its subsidiaries.

It may be owned by a company based in the Middle East but that doesn’t change the location of the employing entity.
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they are seamen who are employed outside the uk usually paid in dollars or other foreign currency and most do not pay uk income tax seafearers earnings deductions SED
a lot of these seamen are contracted for the voyage might be a 3 month trip 4 month trip and when they dock back at the port their contract expires they are not on pay until they re sign back on the crew list
 
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Bottle said:
It gets worse traff - heard of “The DP World Tour”? £147M in Prize Money offered up to change the name of the 2022 European Golf Tour.

If not, then maybe you are aware of F1 Team Renault DP World who, once Formula One Renault, are sponsored to the tune of £35M

But lets not forget DP World’s refusal to plug the £146M deficit in The Merchant Navy Ratings Pension Fund for P&O Retirees, so not just current employees being stiffed big time.

So £177M in sponsorship whilst pocketing £10M furlough payments, nice little earner eh!
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It’s good to know British taxpayers money is being put to good use😡
 
seasiderjohn said:
you will find that a lot of the crew dont pay tax re seafearers earnings deductions SED
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I know nothing about seafarers tax, are you saying they don't pay it and don't have British contracts of employment?
Seafarers on short ferry routes don't have to pay tax, wish I'd known that, its not like they are away for months at a time, sounds like an amazing perk if you have no social conscience.
 
gjr69 said:
So a British government that wanted us to have sovereignty, presumably for the benefit of the majority of British people, could change or introduce laws to protect workers from this sort of action.
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First I could have been clearer. They do have power (maybe influence is a better word) in the sense they can make noises about repercussions in the future if P&O don’t stop their knob like behaviour.

Secondly what P&O have done may well be against the existing employment lawyer (subject to some loophole under maritime law which I don’t think would carry much weight in the courts). But the point about employment law is that it’s the affected parties who take it to court. Not the government.

Thirdly if there are loopholes in the law then the government is the one to close them. But new law is generally not retrospective.
 
seasiderjohn said:
they are seamen who are employed outside the uk usually paid in dollars or other foreign currency and most do not pay uk income tax seafearers earnings deductions SED
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David Prescott

@DavidPrescott

P&O Ferries furloughed 1400 of its staff during the pandemic, costing the taxpayer £10m. They also asked us for a £150m bailout. Its parent company then paid out £250m to shareholders. Now pandemic's over, they're sacking the British staff we supported. https://rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-for-pando-ferries-to-be-nationalised/

So why were they allowed to do this
 
seasiderjohn said:
they are seamen who are employed outside the uk usually paid in dollars or other foreign currency and most do not pay uk income tax seafearers earnings deductions SED
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Are you sure you aren’t confusing genuine merchant seamen who are away from home for months with employees on a roll on roll off that pops back and forth across the Channel, Irish and North Seas?

I’m not saying you’re wrong but it seems a bit odd. Do lorry drivers not pay tax for the time they are driving around the continent?

Edit to add

www.gov.uk

Seafarers Earnings Deduction: tax relief if you work on a ship

If you're an employee working at sea outside of the UK check if you can claim tax relief on your earnings.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

It seems to apply to people who have been outside the U.K. for at least 365 days.
 
gjr69 said:
I know nothing about seafarers tax, are you saying they don't pay it and don't have British contracts of employment?
Seafarers on short ferry routes don't have to pay tax, wish I'd known that, its not like they are away for months at a time, sounds like an amazing perk if you have no social conscience.
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they usually work a month on and a month off and a lot spend sometime abroad when on their month off which usually makes them away for over 6months of the year my brother in law used to do coasting work and spend time abroad so he didnt have to pay tax
 
seasiderjohn said:
they usually work a month on and a month off and a lot spend sometime abroad when on their month off which usually makes them away for over 6months of the year my brother in law used to do coasting work and spend time abroad so he didnt have to pay tax
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If that's the case I'd be a bit less sympathetic to their plight, I suppose they could offset it if they didn't use the NHS and their kids didn't go to state schools but seems like a massive tax loophole that should be closed to me.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Are you sure you aren’t confusing genuine merchant seamen who are away from home for months with employees on a roll on roll off that pops back and forth across the Channel, Irish and North Seas?

I’m not saying you’re wrong but it seems a bit odd. Do lorry drivers not pay tax for the time they are driving around the continent?

Edit to add

www.gov.uk

Seafarers Earnings Deduction: tax relief if you work on a ship

If you're an employee working at sea outside of the UK check if you can claim tax relief on your earnings.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

It seems to apply to people who have been outside the U.K. for at least 365 days.
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once you have worked over 365days you then become classed in the catagory so if you work 6 months on 6 months off after 2 years you will have spent over 365 days at sea then you start to qualify
 
gjr69 said:
If that's the case I'd be a bit less sympathetic to their plight, I suppose they could offset it if they didn't use the NHS and their kids didn't go to state schools but seems like a massive tax loophole that should be closed to me.
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used to really get my back up as brother in law had 5 kids and earn't 40 odd grand a year it worked 1 year no tax the other year part tax dont ask me how
 
seasiderjohn said:
used to really get my back up as brother in law had 5 kids and earn't 40 odd grand a year it worked 1 year no tax the other year part tax dont ask me how
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That's wrong, but tax regulations are full of things like this, almost like governments are helping certain people out while the PAYE majority have no escape from their obligations.
 

A detailed explanation of the three steps:​

1. You’ll require a valid claim period​

You will have to of worked outside the UK for a period of 365 days before you can claim SED.

A period outside the UK can be either due to employment, a period of unemployment, or a holiday/vacation abroad. As soon as this 365-day period has been attained and confirmed, it is carried on until there is a failure.

A failure occurs if at any time during the claim you spend 183 or more continuous days in the UK, or break the ‘half-day rule’.
Mexboroseasider said:
Are you sure you aren’t confusing genuine merchant seamen who are away from home for months with employees on a roll on roll off that pops back and forth across the Channel, Irish and North Seas?

I’m not saying you’re wrong but it seems a bit odd. Do lorry drivers not pay tax for the time they are driving around the continent?

Edit to add

www.gov.uk

Seafarers Earnings Deduction: tax relief if you work on a ship

If you're an employee working at sea outside of the UK check if you can claim tax relief on your earnings.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

It seems to apply to people who have been outside the U.K. for at least 365 days.
Click to expand...
 
seasiderjohn said:
they are seamen who are employed outside the uk usually paid in dollars or other foreign currency and most do not pay uk income tax seafearers earnings deductions SED
a lot of these seamen are contracted for the voyage might be a 3 month trip 4 month trip and when they dock back at the port their contract expires they are not on pay until they re sign back on the crew list
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“Thousands of British seafarers are at risk of falling through gaps in the government's Covid-19 financial support schemes, Nautilus has warned.

Many are in danger of being left without any financial support as their employers fall outside the scope of the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme (CJRS) either because they do not operate Pay as you Earn (PAYE) taxation or because they are based overseas.”

The above was taken from an article in Nautilus International and would seem to imply that Furlough would not be given to employees not paying tax under PAYE. If so then furlough must have been paid to those with UK PAYE employment in which case they should surely be protected under UK employment law
 
traffordtang said:
“Thousands of British seafarers are at risk of falling through gaps in the government's Covid-19 financial support schemes, Nautilus has warned.

Many are in danger of being left without any financial support as their employers fall outside the scope of the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme (CJRS) either because they do not operate Pay as you Earn (PAYE) taxation or because they are based overseas.”

The above was taken from an article in Nautilus International and would seem to imply that Furlough would not be given to employees not paying tax under PAYE. If so then furlough must have been paid to those with UK PAYE employment in which case they should surely be protected under UK employment law
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you pay tax but have to claim it back under the SED system using self assessment forms
 
When you've all taken breath from your know-all maritime law courses, the simple fact is that British workers are being screwed in favour of cheap agency staff. This is a disgrace. The Tory Govt knows it and has said so. The Opposition parties all know it. The Trades Unions know it . Everyone needs to pull together and damn P&O owners and force a retreat from this disgraceful action.
 
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Wizaard said:
A British Government that gave a shit about the public and not their own self interest...
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Interesting that 250 at Calais working for P&O France and a handful at Dublin Port have not been treated in the same way as the UK employees, maybe their countries have laws that protect their workers whilst ours, well, just does not!
 
This is strange.

There's no defence of this on here by the well known Brexiteers and RWNJs.

Come out, come out wherever you are.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
There’s a couple of things I don’t understand.

First from memory the definition of “redundancy” is that your job has ceased to exist. How can the jobs of the current (or maybe now former) staff have ceased to exist if P&O needs agency staff to replace them?

Secondly any business owner will tell you that part of the redundancy process includes consultation where you create a pool of employees who might ultimately be made redundant. The pool doesn’t usually include everyone.

For those selected for redundancy they should then be given notice, the length of which depends on the length of their employment and contractual terms.

It seems neither of those has happened here.

Now it maybe that P&O will argue this situation is akin to an insolvency process but without appointing administrators. But at first flush it appears they’ve ignored the law, budgeted for a figure they may have to pay to employees and decided to go for it. Or alternatively will say, if pushed we’ll put the company under and the employees and tax man will get zilch.

The Middle Eastern owners are also keen on Free Trade zones and have invested heavily in London Gateway (so no levelling up there). It’d be ironic if London finally removed the fist of the oligarchs from its testicles only to find they’ve been replaced by a different hand.
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Mex it's the need for EMPLOYEES not agency workers to undertake that work
This is shocking
 
Firstly what a disgusting way to let 800 workers know they’re going to lose their jobs by a video message! Obviously there’s going to be quite a few companies looking at the P&O decision with similar ideas of ‘moving forward’. Having said that this sort of procedure has been going on for years in one guise or another, Tesco drivers for one having to reapply for their jobs or be considered to have made themselves redundant
when Stobart got the contract and their wages were slashed. Imo this is the beginning of companies using ‘new directives to move things forward’! 😔
 
1966_and_all_that said:
When you've all taken breath from your know-all maritime law courses, the simple fact is that British workers are being screwed in favour of cheap agency staff. This is a disgrace. The Tory Govt knows it and has said so. The Opposition parties all know it. The Trades Unions know it . Everyone needs to pull together and damn P&O owners and for e a retreat from this disgraceful action.
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But it would seem that those who could do something about it chose not to

The approach adopted by P&O is not unheard of, but it is exceptional to forego appropriate notice and consultation processes," said Nathan Donaldson, employment solicitor at Keystone Law.
He said a government review of firing and rehiring in November 2021 did not outlaw the practice but emphasised "that it should be a process of last resort".
 
It's totally immoral & sending security pillocks onboard to remove those protesting "fight" they'd ** get one from me! I think Id play P&O destruction derby's with the ships. These twats who run these companies just think they can walk all over people (sound familiar) makes my blood boil.
 
My dad was a docker all his life, spent years working for Pandoro. If this is all to do do with tit for tat with Russia, what could happen with pensions, etc.. Genuine question, we’re a bit panicky at the moment.
 
Loco said:
They won't qualify, working on ferries doing runs to France, NI etc every day. Don't meet the criteria for seafarers tax.
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yes they do sailing from heysham to ireland 4 weeks on 4 weeks off they are classed as at sea for the 4 weeks at a time that was my brother in laws job for many years after deep sea travelling around the world
 
Have they offered the current employees a 'Pat-off package?
Doesn't sound like they have, and if they have I bet it's paltry.
There should be an honest pay-off system governed by number of years worked there and based on current pay.
Alternatively ban P&O from British ports.
 
Davepick said:
Have they offered the current employees a 'Pat-off package?
Doesn't sound like they have, and if they have I bet it's paltry.
There should be an honest pay-off system governed by number of years worked there and based on current pay.
Alternatively ban P&O from British ports.
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As I recall from being made redundant years ago, if the number of JOBS being last was over 25 then the local Job Centre (as was) had to be notified and they had to give at least 4 weeks notice that this was happening. This seems to have come roght out of the blue but rumours are that Grant Shapps the SoS for Transport was in the know before the announcement.

I’ve also seen a copy of a letter sent to a Security Firm that was put on notice to attend and eject staff who tried to occupy any of the vessels and this was sent some days before the disgusting actions taken so they could get bodies - with handcuff training - to the required locations pre-announcement.

As for P&O they relied a lot on road transport heading for Ireland from the rest of Europe and using GB as a land bridge. Since Brexit a large number of direct ferry services have been introduced from the usual EU ports direct to Ireland thus cutting out this traffic and income for P&O.
 
Do P&O fly the red ensign? If they do it's about time the UK Govt stopped foreign-owned shipping companies using us as a flag of convenience.
 
What an incredibly callous way to treat a loyal and competent workforce. Some actions are just vile and this is a very good example. One minute they are working the next minute their lives have changed with devastating consequences. There are some cruel b------- in this world.
 
Bottle said:
As I recall from being made redundant years ago, if the number of JOBS being last was over 25 then the local Job Centre (as was) had to be notified and they had to give at least 4 weeks notice that this was happening. This seems to have come roght out of the blue but rumours are that Grant Shapps the SoS for Transport was in the know before the announcement.

I’ve also seen a copy of a letter sent to a Security Firm that was put on notice to attend and eject staff who tried to occupy any of the vessels and this was sent some days before the disgusting actions taken so they could get bodies - with handcuff training - to the required locations pre-announcement.

As for P&O they relied a lot on road transport heading for Ireland from the rest of Europe and using GB as a land bridge. Since Brexit a large number of direct ferry services have been introduced from the usual EU ports direct to Ireland thus cutting out this traffic and income for P&O.
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DWP have a Rapid Response Team for handling large scale redundancies who go to the workplace and advise on benefits options and back to work discussions. That relies on having some notice. Guess what in this case...
 
Even Tory MP are saying this is wrong although I bet some of our rwnj's on here would think it is right for business and would have no issues with boarding a P&O ferry
 
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