Recession

1966_and_all_that said:
Which happened because of the poor way that the Tory Government dealt with the economy, both before Truss/Kwarteng, during their pitiful tenure and subsequently. You don't want to listen directly you? Our economy tanked because of the Tories. If you don't want to listen to me then at least listen to the voters of Kingswood and Wellingborough. Or do you have your head firmly in the sand?
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So every other country went into recession for the reasons stated but not the UK. Astounding.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
My view is that increased wages must be recognised with a change in the tax structure. I would reintroduce the 10p rate to help those at the lower end. I would move the standard rate up to £50k. I would then have an intermediate rate of 35p up to £100k. Above that, I would have a 50p rate up to £250k then a 70p rate above that.
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The problem is with such high tax rates (70%) or to some degree a lot lower people leave the country and go to more favourable tax places.

Take me for example, I was investing significant money in the UK and employing a lot of people (100 plus) and paying a lot of tax.

I looked at the tax situation and the offers from other countries made in order to get me to invest in them and not the UK.

So I still grew the UK business at a much lesser rate BUT invested the big money where they gave me loads of incentives and zero CGT and zero dividend tax.

Is that good for the UK economy? - probably not, and I know many people who have done the same.

Now you can quote all the research you like about higher tax rates and people leaving or not leaving - the reality is I did and many others do as well.

I was a very good employer and recognised by the Sunday Times as such, nobody was on min wage and nobody on zero hour contracts - we had a low staff turnover as we treated people fairly.

In my entire business life I was NEVER taken to an employment tribunal (which I am proud of) as I was fair.

So if you think higher rates don’t hurt the economy you are mistaken - and if the country is driving investors like me away - then god help it!
 
seasideone said:
The problem is with such high tax rates (70%) or to some degree a lot lower people leave the country and go to more favourable tax places.

Take me for example, I was investing significant money in the UK and employing a lot of people (100 plus) and paying a lot of tax.

I looked at the tax situation and the offers from other countries made in order to get me to invest in them and not the UK.

So I still grew the UK business at a much lesser rate BUT invested the big money where they gave me loads of incentives and zero CGT and zero dividend tax.

Is that good for the UK economy? - probably not, and I know many people who have done the same.

Now you can quote all the research you like about higher tax rates and people leaving or not leaving - the reality is I did and many others do as well.

I was a very good employer and recognised by the Sunday Times as such, nobody was on min wage and nobody on zero hour contracts - we had a low staff turnover as we treated people fairly.

In my entire business life I was NEVER taken to an employment tribunal (which I am proud of) as I was fair.

So if you think higher rates don’t hurt the economy you are mistaken - and if the country is driving investors like me away - then god help it!
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I would not begin to question your standards as an employer and, of course, there have to be incentives in order to encourage inward investment. But these can sit alongside the structure for income tax that I have briefly summarised above. I have made no mention of Corporation Tax, CGT or bonus structures. All of these fiscal implements must be designed around the encouragement of investment and jobs growth. Only a fool would punish investors for wanting to grow the economy and employment.

However, what we have witnessed over the last thirty years had been a mad rush to 'off-shore' (horrible expression), which has put our economy at the mercy of some rather dodgy regimes and threatened our security into the bargain.

No, the risks of off-shoring are now fully acknowledged, whilst the benefits of on-shoring - quality, long term jobs, stable communities, improved infrastructures and a more harmonious population - are only just becoming widely recognised. In order for our country to prosper then the vastly rich must recognise their responsibilities to the nation as well as benefiting from the advantages it has bestowed on them.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I would not begin to question your standards as an employer and, of course, there have to be incentives in order to encourage inward investment. But these can sit alongside the structure for income tax that I have briefly summarised above. I have made no mention of Corporation Tax, CGT or bonus structures. All of these fiscal implements must be designed around the encouragement of investment and jobs growth. Only a fool would punish investors for wanting to grow the economy and employment.

However, what we have witnessed over the last thirty years had been a mad rush to 'off-shore' (horrible expression), which has put our economy at the mercy of some rather dodgy regimes and threatened our security into the bargain.

No, the risks of off-shoring are now fully acknowledged, whilst the benefits of on-shoring - quality, long term jobs, stable communities, improved infrastructures and a more harmonious population - are only just becoming widely recognised. In order for our country to prosper then the vastly rich must recognise their responsibilities to the nation as well as benefiting from the advantages it has bestowed on them.
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I wasn’t offshoring though - I was
Investing in new business in different countries.

Anyone suggesting a tax of 70% need to understand that it pushes people away.

Hell, the real tax rate between 100k and 120k is circa 66% already in the UK.

The UK needs to encourage investment by rewarding entrepreneurs with low taxes.

It creates jobs after all!

The left need to also understand the risk v reward argument.

If you take risks, you need to be rewarded for them otherwise why would you?

After all , how many employees have had to drive to the bank to put their house up for security to make the wage bill - I have!?
 
seasideone said:
I wasn’t offshoring though - I was
Investing in new business in different countries.

Anyone suggesting a tax of 70% need to understand that it pushes people away.

Hell, the real tax rate between 100k and 120k is circa 66% already in the UK.

The UK needs to encourage investment by rewarding entrepreneurs with low taxes.

It creates jobs after all!

The left need to also understand the risk v reward argument.

If you take risks, you need to be rewarded for them otherwise why would you?

After all , how many employees have had to drive to the bank to put their house up for security to make the wage bill - I have!?
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The need for recognising investment with rewards is highlighted in my last post.
 
seasideone said:
I wasn’t offshoring though - I was
Investing in new business in different countries.

Anyone suggesting a tax of 70% need to understand that it pushes people away.

Hell, the real tax rate between 100k and 120k is circa 66% already in the UK.

The UK needs to encourage investment by rewarding entrepreneurs with low taxes.

It creates jobs after all!

The left need to also understand the risk v reward argument.

If you take risks, you need to be rewarded for them otherwise why would you?

After all , how many employees have had to drive to the bank to put their house up for security to make the wage bill - I have!?
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You are able to make money in the UK because we have an educated work force, a reasonably good infrastructure, access to capital, a generally business friendly environment and generally stable, pragmatic governance [until recent years]. This all costs money and businesses should pay their fair share of the bill. Of course this needs to be done without choking investment. We are in many ways a great country.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
You are able to make money in the UK because we have an educated work force, a reasonably good infrastructure, access to capital, a generally business friendly environment and generally stable, pragmatic governance [until recent years]. This all costs money and businesses should pay their fair share of the bill. Of course this needs to be done without choking investment. We are in many ways a great country.
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Other countries that have better infrastructure and a better educated population - offer better opportunities, and MUCH better incentives.

Edit to add: a much more friendly business environment as well.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I would not begin to question your standards as an employer and, of course, there have to be incentives in order to encourage inward investment. But these can sit alongside the structure for income tax that I have briefly summarised above. I have made no mention of Corporation Tax, CGT or bonus structures. All of these fiscal implements must be designed around the encouragement of investment and jobs growth. Only a fool would punish investors for wanting to grow the economy and employment.

However, what we have witnessed over the last thirty years had been a mad rush to 'off-shore' (horrible expression), which has put our economy at the mercy of some rather dodgy regimes and threatened our security into the bargain.

No, the risks of off-shoring are now fully acknowledged, whilst the benefits of on-shoring - quality, long term jobs, stable communities, improved infrastructures and a more harmonious population - are only just becoming widely recognised. In order for our country to prosper then the vastly rich must recognise their responsibilities to the nation as well as benefiting from the advantages it has bestowed on them.
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It’s a global economy and companies have to succeed within that competitive environment. Governments have to support that reality. They also have to ensure Maverick governments cannot subsidize industries for example electric car batteries to corner the market by putting everyone else out of business. Responsibilities to the nation are a two way street, and until government has business literate people who understand business, entrepreneurs out of necessity will continue to off shore their enterprises.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
And further expand the wealth gap??
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It’s a matter of principle.

All three are a secondary tax….

IHT - has already had paid tax on it.
CGT - already had tax paid on the money you risked
Dividend Tax - the company has already paid corp tax on the money.

I don’t believe in secondary taxes.
 
seasideone said:
Other countries that have better infrastructure and a better educated population - offer better opportunities, and MUCH better incentives.

Edit to add: a much more friendly business environment as well.
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Can you name these places? Singapore imo wouldn't be a reasonable comparison for all sorts of reasons which I think you would accept.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Can you name these places? Singapore imo wouldn't be a reasonable comparison for all sorts of reasons which I think you would accept.
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I wouldn’t actually accept that - as someone who lived there 10 plus years and knows the place - it’s an incredible growth story of how to obtain foreign investment and milk it for the benefit of the masses.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not perfect, but it’s the best place I have ever seen to do business - and I operated in a few countries and researched very many.
 
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Theoneandonly said:
It’s a global economy and companies have to succeed within that competitive environment. Governments have to support that reality. They also have to ensure Maverick governments cannot subsidize industries for example electric car batteries to corner the market by putting everyone else out of business. Responsibilities to the nation are a two way street, and until government has business literate people who understand business, entrepreneurs out of necessity will continue to off shore their enterprises.
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Business before country, business before citizens. We've had 24 years of Governments following the creed of private is best and individualism trumps society. Time for a change I say. So do lots of others.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
by your reckoning, VAT, stamp duty, the duty on alcohol and tobacco should also go as they are taxes on income already taxed.
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No they are not the same. We have an NHS which is a brilliant thing. Alcohol and tobacco are addictive substances with no health benefits (don’t say wine and reservatrol as still in that format benefits don’t outweigh negatives) so they should pay an extra tax to offset burden to NHS.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Business before country, business before citizens. We've had 24 years of Governments following the creed of private is best and individualism trumps society. Time for a change I say. So do lots of others.
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Government has privatized to avoid having to run their institutions properly. This was done out of cowardice and ignorance as they had no idea how to modernize and be efficient.

Business pays for Government and needs a landscape to flourish. That said some business people are modernday slave makers stripping things to accrue monies they can’t take with them in the next life but which is used to give their egos a massage. Even in the game we love players salaries are obscene and that short changes the future as the monies for those salaries has to come from somewhere.
 
Theoneandonly said:
No they are not the same. We have an NHS which is a brilliant thing. Alcohol and tobacco are addictive substances with no health benefits (don’t say wine and reservatrol as still in that format benefits don’t outweigh negatives) so they should pay an extra tax to offset burden to NHS.
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But they are secondary taxes, immaterial where the tax revenue goes.
 
tommytwojags said:
So every other country went into recession for the reasons stated but not the UK. Astounding.
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I think you’ve missed the point.

It was raining on all the houses on the street, I agree.

But in one particular house there were some passing visitors (two of whom were called Liz and Kwasi) who decided to rip off all the roof tiles and smash all the windows to let the rain in and cause more damage. To the detriment of the people who lived in the house.

Most people can see that. Hence the by election results.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Business before country, business before citizens. We've had 24 years of Governments following the creed of private is best and individualism trumps society. Time for a change I say. So do lots of others.
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Thats a very good point, you could add in business before the environment and survival in general, and I have a question for all those who do singularly prioritise business or profit or growth. What is the point of business?
 
Costero Poderoso said:
Thats a very good point, you could add in business before the environment and survival in general, and I have a question for all those who do singularly prioritise business or profit or growth. What is the point of business?
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Great question. The point of business is the same as the point of government. To provide a safe environment and improve the quality of life for all whilst ensuring the continued progress of the human race. They are both responsible for different facets of the common objectives. Now you may scoff at that and understandably so but that’s because greed, ego, and no accountability has eroded hope somewhat and obscured some peoples vision.

Look at the U.S. for example does any sane person think Trump or Biden are the best people to be president? And how can it be called a democracy and the land of the free ifyou cannot vote for none of the above.

That said you have been born British the little island that never gives up. You are from Blackpool which means you have to have hope to survive and if you are like me you are a parent so even when you might not feel it you have to be brave, lead by example and do your job with what you have to make the world you are custodian of, better for those that follow you. That is your highest choice and the difference between living and existing.
 
Theoneandonly said:
Great question. The point of business is the same as the point of government. To provide a safe environment and improve the quality of life for all whilst ensuring the continued progress of the human race. They are both responsible for different facets of the common objectives. Now you may scoff at that and understandably so but that’s because greed, ego, and no accountability has eroded hope somewhat and obscured some peoples vision.

Look at the U.S. for example does any sane person think Trump or Biden are the best people to be president? And how can it be called a democracy and the land of the free ifyou cannot vote for none of the above.

That said you have been born British the little island that never gives up. You are from Blackpool which means you have to have hope to survive and if you are like me you are a parent so even when you might not feel it you have to be brave, lead by example and do your job with what you have to make the world you are custodian of, better for those that follow you. That is your highest choice and the difference between living and existing.
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That's a good answer; I often get to make profit, or growth or something similar that omits the humanistic aspect. We're seemingly on a similar page, which is surprising based on many of your posts.
 
seasideone said:
I wasn’t offshoring though - I was
Investing in new business in different countries.

Anyone suggesting a tax of 70% need to understand that it pushes people away.

Hell, the real tax rate between 100k and 120k is circa 66% already in the UK.

The UK needs to encourage investment by rewarding entrepreneurs with low taxes.

It creates jobs after all!

The left need to also understand the risk v reward argument.

If you take risks, you need to be rewarded for them otherwise why would you?

After all , how many employees have had to drive to the bank to put their house up for security to make the wage bill - I have!?
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All for risk and reward but business has to accept failure when it does not come off and not expect the state to bail them out, to many corporate failures without anyone taking the hit either in jail or in the pocket.
 
It wasn't that long ago that a former "politician" from the former Party of business, was saying "Fcuk business"!!!
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I think you’ve missed the point.
It was raining on all the houses on the street, I agree.
But in one particular house there were some passing visitors (two of whom were called Liz and Kwasi) who decided to rip off all the roof tiles and smash all the windows to let the rain in and cause more damage. To the detriment of the people who lived in the house.
Most people can see that. Hence the by election results.
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That's just left wing nonsense. If the UK's recession was deeper than the others mentioned, or even as deep, it might have had some logic.
 
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