Sex is biological fact, NHS declares in landmark shift against gender ideology

JJpool

JJpool

Well-known member
www.telegraph.co.uk

Sex is biological fact, NHS declares in landmark shift against gender ideology

Campaigners welcome change to constitution, which will ban trans women from female-only wards, as ‘return to common sense’
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

www.bbc.co.uk

NHS to stress biological sex in ward allocations - BBC News

Transgender women should not be put on single-sex female NHS wards in England, the government is proposing.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Starmer u turn....

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer says his views on gender 'start with biology'

The Labour leader backed blocking trans women from female-only hospital wards and prisons after the Government proposed changes to England's NHS constitution.
www.dailymail.co.uk

The truth about stonewall being exposed...

www.telegraph.co.uk

The truth about Stonewall is finally being exposed

The organisation sought to shut down debate and pose as the real ‘experts’. Now its credibility has crumbled
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
JJpool said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Sex is biological fact, NHS declares in landmark shift against gender ideology

Campaigners welcome change to constitution, which will ban trans women from female-only wards, as ‘return to common sense’
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

www.bbc.co.uk

NHS to stress biological sex in ward allocations - BBC News

Transgender women should not be put on single-sex female NHS wards in England, the government is proposing.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Starmer u turn....

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer says his views on gender 'start with biology'

The Labour leader backed blocking trans women from female-only hospital wards and prisons after the Government proposed changes to England's NHS constitution.
www.dailymail.co.uk

The truth about stonewall being exposed...

www.telegraph.co.uk

The truth about Stonewall is finally being exposed

The organisation sought to shut down debate and pose as the real ‘experts’. Now its credibility has crumbled
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
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I like your posts mate but do you get out much? You literally write war and peace on every subject. I wouldn't have the time nor the inclination.
 
Macseasider said:
I like your posts mate but do you get out much? You literally write war and peace on every subject. I wouldn't have the time nor the inclination.
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Like a lot of us, I probably spend too much time scrolling at night... but I just did a quick search for a different source that was readable for free and already had the stonewall one open from the other day so bunged it in.
 
JJpool said:
Like a lot of us, I probably spend too much time scrolling at night... but I just did a quick search for a different source that was readable for free and already had the stonewall one open from the other day so bunged it in.
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I wasn't having a go. Just interested.
 
JJpool said:
Like a lot of us, I probably spend too much time scrolling at night... but I just did a quick search for a different source that was readable for free and already had the stonewall one open from the other day so bunged it in.
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What you do at night... is up to you...😳😉🤣
 
It'll be funny watching people trying to unravel the intellectual knots they wrapped themselves up in over this issue.

It was never difficult to say women are adult human females; if a man wants to think he's a woman, then that's fine, if he wants to be called by a woman's name, that's fine too - and if he wants to dress in women's clothes, crack on - and if you go so the way to surgery then that's a personal choice but you will still never be a woman - just a male and potentially medicated interpretation of what a woman is.
 
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TSSeasider said:
Irl be funny watching people trying to unravel the intellectual knots they wrapped themselves up in over this issue.

It was never difficult to say women are adult human females; if a man wants to think he's a woman, then that's fine, if he wants to be called by a woman's name, that's fine too - and if he wants to dress in women's clothes, crack on - and if you go so the way to surgery then that's a personal choice but you will still never be a woman - just a male and potentially medicated interpretation of what a woman is.
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You seem to think it’s only one way. Any thoughts on women who want to become men?
 
hampshire_exile said:
It’s funny that some people spend so much time invested in this issue when there is so much else in this country that needs new ideas and new ways of doing things.
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I think it's to do with the absurdity of it all. Most people just look on incredulously when you've got male rapists going in to women's prisons and that sort of nonsense.

Now the NHS have put it to bed (literally) it will just disappear as an issue.
 
TSSeasider said:
Irl be funny watching people trying to unravel the intellectual knots they wrapped themselves up in over this issue.

It was never difficult to say women are adult human females; if a man wants to think he's a woman, then that's fine, if he wants to be called by a woman's name, that's fine too - and if he wants to dress in women's clothes, crack on - and if you go so the way to surgery then that's a personal choice but you will still never be a woman - just a male and potentially medicated interpretation of what a woman is.
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People become too frightened and intimidated to state facts these days for fear of the repercussions from one group or another.
The truth becomes blurry when people are bullied into denying its existence, then the untruths become the facts somewhere down the line. Crazy.
 
Lala said:
People become too frightened and intimidated to state facts these days for fear of the repercussions from one group or another.
The truth becomes blurry when people are bullied into denying its existence, then the untruths become the facts somewhere down the line. Crazy.
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Too true LaLa. Fortunately though it’s Blood who’s trying to frighten and intimidate at the moment which isn’t too big a problem.
 
It's a single flake in a snowstorm all of this. A single grain in a sandstorm. Some people are trying to build an event from nothing. The world had a lot to worry about right now but trans-sexuals ain't one of them. I'd be more worried about my Dad's chihuahua pissing on my living room carpet than I am about girls being boys and boys being girls. Get over yourselves people. The world still turns.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It's a single flake in a snowstorm all of this. A single grain in a sandstorm. Some people are trying to build an event from nothing. The world had a lot to worry about right now but trans-sexuals ain't one of them. I'd be more worried about my Dad's chihuahua pissing on my living room carpet than I am about girls being boys and boys being girls. Get over yourselves people. The world still turns.
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An actual chihuahua or someone identifying as one?
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It's a single flake in a snowstorm all of this. A single grain in a sandstorm. Some people are trying to build an event from nothing. The world had a lot to worry about right now but trans-sexuals ain't one of them. I'd be more worried about my Dad's chihuahua pissing on my living room carpet than I am about girls being boys and boys being girls. Get over yourselves people. The world still turns.
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I’m more worried that your dad’s dog of choice is a chihuahua…..
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It's a single flake in a snowstorm all of this. A single grain in a sandstorm. Some people are trying to build an event from nothing. The world had a lot to worry about right now but trans-sexuals ain't one of them. I'd be more worried about my Dad's chihuahua pissing on my living room carpet than I am about girls being boys and boys being girls. Get over yourselves people. The world still turns.
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You are less than clueless if you truly are forwarding that a some sort of critical thinking…its the thoughts of a 12 year old at best….a particularly poorly read one at that
 
q
Lost Seasider said:
Do you think that serious harms to vulnerable children is funny?
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spot on Mate…they pretend to be “caring” but they don’t do any reading up, any real research and just want to think that what deluded immature children happen to think at a young age must be indulged…often damaging them and their bodies and minds and ruining their whole lives …….but it’s “progressive” and “kind”……. It defies belief…… oh and btw anyone who disagrees is “horrible, a Tory, a Nazi etc etc” zzzz
 
Bloodtangerine said:
Zzzzzzzz
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Another invaluable contribution from Captain Lightweight. Mind you, caught out in such a blatant lie he didn’t have many options.

I appreciate I’m probably wasting my time with this bit but I’ll try anyway.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that the trans debate on here and elsewhere only ever talks about male to female transition. It doesn’t talk about female to male. How can you have a proper debate about an issue when you ignore a huge aspect of it?

I know why people do it. It’s so they can trot out tropes about men competing in women’s sports or male rapists in women’s prisons. Important and serious issues I agree but not the only issues.

Now then. You can either come back with a considered response or you can continue in “toys out of the pram” mode. I’m not holding my breath.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Do you think that serious harms to vulnerable children is funny?
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I think everyone would have serious concerns about children and teenagers starting down a path that’s pretty much irreversible if they realise they’ve made a catastrophic mistake in later life. I agree they need to be protected.

But surely the starting point should be to understand why people think that way? Rather than just saying - Nope. Not possible. You’re just sick and deluded. That’s not very supportive or protective of children is it?

It’s a complete mystery to me tbh. I don’t understand it at all, but that’s probably my failing rather than theirs. The only two people I know of who transitioned were mature blokes. A lawyer in his 50s who’d always been “one of the lads”. And a sculptor in metal - huge arms, bald, with a big bushy beard. Think blacksmith. I didn’t understand their decisions then and I don’t understand them now. But clearly people don’t make a choice like that lightly.

Here’s the NHS Guidance. Puberty blockers are not available to kids under 16 it seems and I imagine they are discouraged even then. Looks as if surgery is only available to adults although I’ve only skip read it.

www.nhs.uk

Gender dysphoria - Treatment

Treatment for gender dysphoria aims to help people live the way they want to, in their preferred gender identity or as non-binary.
www.nhs.uk www.nhs.uk
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
Another invaluable contribution from Captain Lightweight. Mind you, caught out in such a blatant lie he didn’t have many options.

I appreciate I’m probably wasting my time with this bit but I’ll try anyway.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that the trans debate on here and elsewhere only ever talks about male to female transition. It doesn’t talk about female to male. How can you have a proper debate about an issue when you ignore a huge aspect of it?

I know why people do it. It’s so they can trot out tropes about men competing in women’s sports or male rapists in women’s prisons. Important and serious issues I agree but not the only issues.

Now then. You can either come back with a considered response or you can continue in “toys out of the pram” mode. I’m not holding my breath.can
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Mexboroseasider said:
Another invaluable contribution from Captain Lightweight. Mind you, caught out in such a blatant lie he didn’t have many options.

I appreciate I’m probably wasting my time with this bit but I’ll try anyway.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that the trans debate on here and elsewhere only ever talks about male to female transition. It doesn’t talk about female to male. How can you have a proper debate about an issue when you ignore a huge aspect of it?

I know why people do it. It’s so they can trot out tropes about men competing in women’s sports or male rapists in women’s prisons. Important and serious issues I agree but not the only issues.

Now then. You can either come back with a considered response or you can continue in “toys out of the pram” mode. I’m not holding my breath.
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Oh you’ve invented a name for me……jolly good, how “heavyweight”

I’ll debate with you on the topic if you wish but to do so I need to know what your contention is which isn’t clear from you just saying that people mostly talk about one form of transition and not the other…so what are you actually saying?

And btw what is this blatant lie you're rabbiting about?
 
Bloodtangerine said:
Oh you’ve invented a name for me……jolly good, how “heavyweight”

I’ll debate with you on the topic if you wish but to do so I need to know what your contention is which isn’t clear from you just saying that people mostly talk about one form of transition and not the other…so what are you actually saying?

And btw what is this blatant lie you're rabbiting abo
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I’ve answered the point in your second paragraph already in the post you’ve replied to. To repeat. How can you debate a topic fully if you’re only talking about one aspect of it ie male to female transitioning?

Specifically re kids you’ll see my reply to Lost with the link to the NHS website.

As for your lie, you said something along the lines of TS had addressed the issue of female to male transitioning. He hadn’t and when I asked you to stand up your claim you replied with the helpful “zzzzzzz”. I can’t recall female to male transitioning ever being discussed on avftt.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’ve answered the point in your second paragraph already in the post you’ve replied to. To repeat. How can you debate a topic fully if you’re only talking about one aspect of it ie male to female transitioning?

Specifically re kids you’ll see my reply to Lost with the link to the NHS website.

As for your lie, you said something along the lines of TS had addressed the issue of female to male transitioning. He hadn’t and when I asked you to stand up your claim you replied with the helpful “zzzzzzz”. I can’t recall female to male transitioning ever being discussed on avftt.
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What would discussing it add to the debate?

My thoughts are simple…..a person’s Sex is immutable, Gender is basically a made up word (I know all words are made up) and means nothing.

So females are XX, Males are XY.

I’ve no problem with either a man or a woman, dressing, living etc as the opposite sex if it makes them happy, no problem at all but they are still the sex they were born with and just feeling like something doesn’t change objective reality no matter how much some may want feelings to trump actual facts. Even if they have their bodies altered it does not change their sex.
 
Bloodtangerine said:
What would discussing it add to the debate?

My thoughts are simple…..a person’s Sex is immutable, Gender is basically a made up word (I know all words are made up) and means nothing.

So females are XX, Males are XY.

I’ve no problem with either a man or a woman, dressing, living etc as the opposite sex if it makes them happy, no problem at all but they are still the sex they were born with and just feeling like something doesn’t change objective reality no matter how much some may want feelings to trump actual facts. Even if they have their bodies altered it does not change their sex.
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Yes and that’s a very powerful argument. But it completely fails to address two questions.

1. Why are there so many people who apparently want to transition? And
2. How do you deal with them?

I suppose some people might answer 1 by saying they’ve been brainwashed by trans activists. And answer 2 by saying they need a clip round the ear and a good talking to. Not really a science based analysis or science based solution though imo.

The problem is that the whole debate has become so toxic that’s it’s almost impossible to have a reasoned discussion about what’s going on or how the issues could be addressed. And both sides are responsible for the toxicity; the trans activists and also the politicians who have weaponised the issues as part of the culture wars.

I’ve belatedly started reading about the Cass report which is actually very critical of what critics would term “the trans industry” and in particular the lack of evidence for a lot of the medical and clinical decisions that have been taken in the past, especially by GIDS. That seems like a sound starting point for anyone who really wants to know WTF is going on.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Yes and that’s a very powerful argument. But it completely fails to address two questions.

1. Why are there so many people who apparently want to transition? And
2. How do you deal with them?

I suppose some people might answer 1 by saying they’ve been brainwashed by trans activists. And answer 2 by saying they need a clip round the ear and a good talking to. Not really a science based analysis or science based solution though imo.

The problem is that the whole debate has become so toxic that’s it’s almost impossible to have a reasoned discussion about what’s going on or how the issues could be addressed. And both sides are responsible for the toxicity; the trans activists and also the politicians who have weaponised the issues as part of the culture wars.

I’ve belatedly started reading about the Cass report which is actually very critical of what critics would term “the trans industry” and in particular the lack of evidence for a lot of the medical and clinical decisions that have been taken in the past, especially by GIDS. That seems like a sound starting point for anyone who really wants to know WTF is going on.
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I agree with most of this.
We certainly need more understanding of the trans 'condition'. There must be something driving this behaviour. The paper below reports a different brain type for trans women when compared with cis-men and cis-women. None of the trans women had undergone hormone therapy and some were attracted to men, some were attracted to women.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or their ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Why do these brain differences seem to exist (as shown in the paper and shown in other studies)? Perhaps there is actually something biological driving trans type behaviour. Why do some people want to be a different sex from their biological sex and not others?
As Mex points out, the whole debate has become so politicised that a calm and rational conversation is almost impossible. But that is exactly what we need - more understanding and less condemnation. The issues of competing rights need to be addressed, it looks like the NHS have grasped the nettle in this case (well done). Some of these issues can be designed away (unisex toilets, changing spaces and hospital wards for instance) but some do need to be considered in more detail (transgender athletes in professional sport for instance). Thankfully I think we are moving in the right direction albeit slowly. In the future biological sex and gender questions will not be such a loaded issue, younger people tend to look at biological sex and gender in a very different way to us older people.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
Yes and that’s a very powerful argument. But it completely fails to address two questions.

1. Why are there so many people who apparently want to transition? And
2. How do you deal with them?

I suppose some people might answer 1 by saying they’ve been brainwashed by trans activists. And answer 2 by saying they need a clip round the ear and a good talking to. Not really a science based analysis or science based solution though imo.

The problem is that the whole debate has become so toxic that’s it’s almost impossible to have a reasoned discussion about what’s going on or how the issues could be addressed. And both sides are responsible for the toxicity; the trans activists and also the politicians who have weaponised the issues as part of the culture wars.

I’ve belatedly started reading about the Cass report which is actually very critical of what critics would term “the trans industry” and in particular the lack of evidence for a lot of the medical and clinical decisions that have been taken in the past, especially by GIDS. That seems like a sound starting point for anyone who really wants to know WTF is going on.
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1….I think you’ve largely answered that yourself tbh Mex…brainwashed at a time when young people are immature and most vulnerable, want to be different, rebel etc etc and then massively indulged in this thinking

2…..I don’t know how you treat them BUT I would be telling them that they cannot change their actual sex.
 
Bloodtangerine said:
1….I think you’ve largely answered that yourself tbh Mex…brainwashed at a time when young people are immature and most vulnerable, want to be different, rebel etc etc and then massively indulged in this thinking

2…..I don’t know how you treat them BUT I would be telling them that they cannot change their actual sex.
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I played football with a guy who was for all intents and purposes 'one of the lads'. Nothing immature about him, had a career, a girlfriend and a seemingly fairly ordinary life.

These days she is a trans woman who has fully transitioned.

I would say that the reason that she was living the average life before hand was precisely because of peer pressure or even perhaps 'brainwashing'. When she was established as an adult she was confident enough to be able to be truly herself.

The thing is, society isn't anywhere near as judgemental these days as when we were young. This perhaps explains why young people are more likely to express themselves as being trans or whatever.

Trans / gender disphoria / whatever you call it is out there now amongst all generations. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube, however much you would like to. Therefore we need to accept and address it as a society. This means having a calm and mature conversation about how these people can be accommodated.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
I played football with a guy who was for all intents and purposes 'one of the lads'. Nothing immature about him, had a career, a girlfriend and a seemingly fairly ordinary life.

These days he is a trans woman who has fully transitioned.

I would say that the reason that he was living the average life before hand was precisely because of peer pressure or even perhaps 'brainwashing'. When he was established as an adult she was confident enough to be able to be truly herself.

The thing is, society isn't anywhere near as judgemental these days as when we were young. This perhaps explains why young people are more likely to express themselves as being trans or whatever.

Trans / gender disphoria / whatever you call it is out there now amongst all generations. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube, however much you would like to. Therefore we need to accept and address it as a society. This means having a calm and mature conversation about how these people can be accommodated.
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You miss my Main point (not a criticism btw)

I’m genuinely happy for your friend if she’s happy…..why wouldn’t anyone be. I’m sure she had been through hell to get where she is and I would respect her being called a woman and so forth as that’s what she wants and how she wants to live

But her sex is still factually Male …it can’t be changed
 
Bloodtangerine said:
You miss my Main point (not a criticism btw)

I’m genuinely happy for your friend if she’s happy…..why wouldn’t anyone be. I’m sure she had been through hell to get where she is and I would respect her being called a woman and so forth as that’s what she wants and how she wants to live

But her sex is still factually Male …it can’t be changed
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I agree, her biological sex is male but that isn't the point.

If we accept that trans people have the right to exist as they please and that they are different to cis males [(or females), which I think you do] then the debate should be 'how we can accommodate them fairly in society whilst respecting everybody's rights'

Just repeating 'but you are biologically male [or female]' to them doesn't really help in this context. We need to move forward because the world has changed.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
I agree, her biological sex is male but that isn't the point.

If we accept that trans people have the right to exist as they please and that they are different to cis males [(or females), which I think you do] then the debate should be 'how we can accommodate them fairly in society whilst respecting everybody's rights'

Just repeating 'but you are biologically male [or female]' to them doesn't really help in this context. We need to move forward because the world has changed.
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We agree
 
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