Shock and War: Iraq 20 years on

[Shandypants]

Half way through this excellent series on BBC sounds. Compelling stuff, I'd highly recommend listening to it. The road to war is a shocking example of the US blatantly using lies and propaganda to fulfill its strategic aim, what I find alarming is how its quickly swept under the carpet and forgotten how they've acted in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Blair in my opinion was a victim of his own ego, he was so desperate to be at the top table he got swept along with this.
America the good guys, not in my book.

BBC Sounds - Shock and War: Iraq 20 Years On - Available Episodes

Listen to the latest episodes of Shock and War: Iraq 20 Years On on BBC Sounds

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Curryman]

The good old USA have a lot to answer for, but were also decent with the Marshall plan monies which could have been spent in many ways.

Jealous of the British Empire and having a smaller navy than ours pre WW1, they milked us for as long as possible before joining the ranks of the free world in 1917 and winning the war! Likewise in WW2, had the Japs not attacked them at Pearl Harbour, they would have comfortably stood back whilst the British Empire was dismantled piece by piece and using lease lend to placate us but then requiring we pay the money back after the war, this was finally paid back in 2006, from memory, thus by stealth doing what the Germans and the Japs had been trying to do. Admittedly Britain did well out of the Marshall Plan becoming its single biggest European recipient. We received $2.7 billion – a billion dollars more than West Germany. But, unlike the Germans, Britain used only about a third as much Marshall money in capital investment, allocating considerably more to the construction of an extensive welfare state. West Germany, perhaps more sensibly, prioritised the creation of prosperity.

 

[glasshalffull]

The good old USA have a lot to answer for, but were also decent with the Marshall plan monies which could have been spent in many ways.

Jealous of the British Empire and having a smaller navy than ours pre WW1, they milked us for as long as possible before joining the ranks of the free world in 1917 and winning the war! Likewise in WW2, had the Japs not attacked them at Pearl Harbour, they would have comfortably stood back whilst the British Empire was dismantled piece by piece and using lease lend to placate us but then requiring we pay the money back after the war, this was finally paid back in 2006, from memory, thus by stealth doing what the Germans and the Japs had been trying to do. Admittedly Britain did well out of the Marshall Plan becoming its single biggest European recipient. We received $2.7 billion – a billion dollars more than West Germany. But, unlike the Germans, Britain used only about a third as much Marshall money in capital investment, allocating considerably more to the construction of an extensive welfare state. West Germany, perhaps more sensibly, prioritised the creation of prosperity.

Good Post, but don’t forget the Germans were also restricted on spending money on defence after WW2.

 

[BWseasider]

The good old USA have a lot to answer for, but were also decent with the Marshall plan monies which could have been spent in many ways.

Jealous of the British Empire and having a smaller navy than ours pre WW1, they milked us for as long as possible before joining the ranks of the free world in 1917 and winning the war! Likewise in WW2, had the Japs not attacked them at Pearl Harbour, they would have comfortably stood back whilst the British Empire was dismantled piece by piece and using lease lend to placate us but then requiring we pay the money back after the war, this was finally paid back in 2006, from memory, thus by stealth doing what the Germans and the Japs had been trying to do. Admittedly Britain did well out of the Marshall Plan becoming its single biggest European recipient. We received $2.7 billion – a billion dollars more than West Germany. But, unlike the Germans, Britain used only about a third as much Marshall money in capital investment, allocating considerably more to the construction of an extensive welfare state. West Germany, perhaps more sensibly, prioritised the creation of prosperity.

I think you’re downplaying the assistance the US gave before Pearl Harbour. The Germans were chomping at the bit to attack US shipping before December 1941 because of how much they were helping both us and the Soviets. From their perspective the US was practically at war with them already, which is why they declared war on the US after Japan’s attack. Hitler thought they would be too busy with the Japanese to also be involved in the European theatre militarily so his U-boats would be free to attack much needed supplies.

Lend lease materiel was supposed to be returned, but the vast majority of materiel we never returned, it was therefore mostly given to us for free.

The only exception was for some goods in Britain and in transit when lend lease suddenly finished after the war in September 1945, which Britain still needed. This was mostly commercial goods for the UK economy rather than war materiel. The US expected to be paid for this but gave us a 90% discount.

The loan you refer to paid off in 2006 was mostly the Anglo-American loan in 1946, nothing to do with lend lease. The loan was set at 2% interest, below market rates. So really was just more aid much like the Marshall Plan.

The values of both if these were £1.075 and £3.75 billion. In contrast we received £31 billion in lend lease from the US.

Yes the US was always against the Empire. They worked hard to ensure their aid didn’t mean just propping it up (even then much of the anglo-american loan went to just that). Doesn’t mean they weren’t good allies to Britain. As you point out we got the most money out of the Marshall plan and it’s nothing to do with them how effectively we spent it.

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

Countries act in their own interest.

 

[Shandypants]

The Americans didn't like the empire because it gave the UK wealth and power beyond our means. It was beautiful really, invade and shoot some natives which then enabled us to raid them of their natural wealth. India 45 trillion alone, the Americans would have loved to have done it, by 1945 it wasn't the done thing to invade and brutalise countries.

 

[Curryman]

I think you’re downplaying the assistance the US gave before Pearl Harbour. The Germans were chomping at the bit to attack US shipping before December 1941 because of how much they were helping both us and the Soviets. From their perspective the US was practically at war with them already, which is why they declared war on the US after Japan’s attack. Hitler thought they would be too busy with the Japanese to also be involved in the European theatre militarily so his U-boats would be free to attack much needed supplies.

Lend lease materiel was supposed to be returned, but the vast majority of materiel we never returned, it was therefore mostly given to us for free.

The only exception was for some goods in Britain and in transit when lend lease suddenly finished after the war in September 1945, which Britain still needed. This was mostly commercial goods for the UK economy rather than war materiel. The US expected to be paid for this but gave us a 90% discount.

The loan you refer to paid off in 2006 was mostly the Anglo-American loan in 1946, nothing to do with lend lease. The loan was set at 2% interest, below market rates. So really was just more aid much like the Marshall Plan.

The values of both if these were £1.075 and £3.75 billion. In contrast we received £31 billion in lend lease from the US.

Yes the US was always against the Empire. They worked hard to ensure their aid didn’t mean just propping it up (even then much of the anglo-american loan went to just that). Doesn’t mean they weren’t good allies to Britain. As you point out we got the most money out of the Marshall plan and it’s nothing to do with them how effectively we spent it.

Difficult to sum up something so complex in so few words, but I agree with most of what you have written.

 

[look.its.luke]

The rest is politics is a podcast with an interesting episode on this. Alastair Campbell was Blair's attack dog, involved in the discussions with Bush, Rumsvelt et al, and Rory Stewart became governor of a province in Iraq.