Shock!

southshorepool said:
Not really. I asked you a question. You can't answer it so I deduced you think fracking is the answer but are not sure why.
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Well I can only assume you are happy paying vast amounts for overseas Gas when there’s a 1000 years worth under our feet. Stop moaning about it and crack on.
 
Sooty59 said:
That's about what ours has gone up too, not due to the MIL though, mind you we have the grandson living with us ATM. I must say if I can get it through to everyone, turn the heating off if you've finished using a particular room. I've also tweaked everything down in the hall & landing areas, oh one last thing which irritates me "SHUT THE BLOODY DOOR" 🤨
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"SHUT THE BLOODY DOOR". Yep, weird one that, in winter my lot keeps leaving the doors open but in summer when I want fresh air circulating, they insist on closing every bloody door.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So much for competition then.

Sounds like a cartel to me where the suppliers have fixed the price.
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No, that's how markets work, competition determines the price, the more efficient producers benefit from it.

It's called producer surplus, if you're interested, there's a related concept called consumer surplus.
 
td53 said:
I can go to one shop and pay £2 for a KG of potatoes and then to another shop and pay 50p.

Literally.
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Same potatoes, or a different sort of potatoes, and what other differences between the supplies and suppliers are there that explain the difference?

How much do you think the shop paid for the potatoes?

If you're interested, you've likely wandered into an area known as "price discrimination".
 
Lost Seasider said:
Same potatoes, or a different sort of potatoes, and what other differences between the supplies and suppliers are there that explain the difference?

How much do you think the shop paid for the potatoes?

If you're interested, you've likely wandered into an area known as "price discrimination".
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But there we go. There's difference between the supplies and the suppliers that explain the difference. Exactly. They're both potatoes but they're different. So the market differentiates.

So, why is wind energy or nuclear power affected because gas comes from Russia. They're both unit of electricity yes, but they're supplied in entirely different ways. Why does the market not differentiate? The cost of supply hasn't altered one iota for renewables and nuclear power.

It's as if all the price of all potatoes rose one day because there was a poor harvest of King Edwards.
 
td53 said:
But there we go. There's difference between the supplies and the suppliers that explain the difference. Exactly. They're both potatoes but they're different. So the market differentiates.

So, why is wind energy or nuclear power affected because gas comes from Russia. They're both unit of electricity yes, but they're supplied in entirely different ways. Why does the market not differentiate? The cost of supply hasn't altered one iota for renewables and nuclear power.
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The supply of potatoes is determined months in advance, and price discrimination is to do with consumer preferences rather than supplies.


td53 said:
It's as if all the price of all potatoes rose one day because there was a poor harvest of King Edwards.
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This comes into the question of substitutes.

If there are no King Edwards whatsoever, the demand and thus price for Maris Piper's increases accordingly, and if those aren't available either then the next best alternative will see demand increase instead.

At a more fundamental level, if hypothetically, Russia were to invade one of the world's largest wheat producers, say, just as a completely random example, Ukraine, that would reduce the global supply of carbohydrates, so as well as a reduction in the supply of wheat and a consequent increase in its price, the price of alternatives such as potatoes would also increase.

But what are the odds of that happening..........................................
 
Scaramanga said:
Well I can only assume you are happy paying vast amounts for overseas Gas when there’s a 1000 years worth under our feet. Stop moaning about it and crack on.
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1000 years worth of gas? Really. Who knew?
I don't understand why you're attacking me and also finding it so difficult to explain to me the benefits. You said we should crack on with it and inferred that it will reduce our bills. All I want to know is how long will that take and by how much?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I suspect he doesn’t want his house disappearing down a hole in the ground.
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It's nothing to do with my opinion. I simply want to know how fracking will help matesrates. I want a timescale and a ballpark figure on cost/ prices. I personally think he's been listening to Neil Oliver/ Dan Wootten/ Darren 'crafty wank' Grimes et al and just took it as gospel. I want evidence from posters who say it's a good thing.
 
southshorepool said:
1000 years worth of gas? Really. Who knew?
I don't understand why you're attacking me and also finding it so difficult to explain to me the benefits. You said we should crack on with it and inferred that it will reduce our bills. All I want to know is how long will that take and by how much?
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I told you i don't know, but maybe just maybe if you lot didn't just instantly complain about everything we might have already managed to start producing it and not be held to ransom like we are now.
 
Lost Seasider said:
No, that's how markets work, competition determines the price, the more efficient producers benefit from it.

It's called producer surplus, if you're interested, there's a related concept called consumer surplus.
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Nah. I don’t think that’s right.

Producer surplus is simply the difference between what an INDIVIDUAL producer has to charge for its product and what they can get away with charging. It doesn’t explain why a single price is determined across the market for a product regardless of supplier or the source of supply, which was the question that was asked.

For example…..

Producer A, with his own source of supply and cost base, has to sell his product at £40 to make a profit whereas he can actually sell it at £50. THAT producer’s surplus is £10.

Meanwhile Producer B (with a different source of supply and a different costs base) has to sell his product at £30 whereas (like producer A) he can sell it at £50. His surplus is £20.

That doesn’t explain why the actual sale price is £50, regardless of where the product is sourced, which was the question that was posed. In fact according to economic theory Producer B should reduce his price to £45 (reducing his surplus to £15 - still higher than Producer A) to make his product more attractive to consumers than those of his his competitors, selling more units and making even more profit than he would by selling for £50. If he doesn’t reduce his price then the market isn’t working properly. And that was the question. Why is the price of electricity the same regardless of how it was produced? A cartel amongst suppliers to keep prices high is one explanation.
 
Scaramanga said:
I told you i don't know, but maybe just maybe if you lot didn't just instantly complain about everything we might have already managed to start producing it and not be held to ransom like we are now.
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But you said there's a 1000 years of gas and we need to get a move on but then you say you don't know how it's going to work. I'll leave it there as I was always told not to play with my food.
 
My Ma's has doubled, she's 94 so needs to stay warm. Usually by April CH is off but it's unusually cold especially first thing for this time of year.
Worrying thing is a guy on a radio phone in said it could double again next winter unless the Government gets its act together.
They could start by dropping the 5% VAT and standing charges.
 
southshorepool said:
But you said there's a 1000 years of gas and we need to get a move on but then you say you don't know how it's going to work. I'll leave it there as I was always told not to play with my food.
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Poor response. Keep moaning about your fuel costs.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
That doesn’t explain why the actual sale price is £50, regardless of where the product is sourced, which was the question that was posed. In fact according to economic theory Producer B should reduce his price to £45 (reducing his surplus to £15 - still higher than Producer A) to make his product more attractive to consumers than those of his his competitors, selling more units and making even more profit than he would by selling for £50. If he doesn’t reduce his price then the market isn’t working properly. And that was the question.
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That assumes that producer A can expand his output, it could alternatively be the case that he is already working at full capacity and can't expand without throwing away whatever it is that gives him his competitive advantage over producer B, in which case, rationally, he sells his output at the prevailing market price.

And if A did try and sell his product at below market price, without expanding output, then trader C would buy as much as he possibly could and sell it on at, you've guessed it, £50.


Mexboroseasider said:
Why is the price of electricity the same regardless of how it was produced? A cartel amongst suppliers to keep prices high is one explanation.
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I've explained this a couple of times already.

The supply of renewables and nuclear is fixed, it does not and cannot respond to the market price.

Gas is the marginal producer, it can respond to market conditions, the cost of gas determines the cost of generating electricity (from that source), which then determines the market price of all electricity.

Even if they could, there's no logical reason for renewables producers to sell their output at anything other than market price, because, as mentioned, their output is fixed.

And, as also mentioned, all electricity is alike.
 
td53 said:
What I genuinely don't understand is it that it seems like no matter what the source is and where it's from, the price of a unit of energy is fixed by the international market.

So, you could be (as I understand it) using the power from Morecambe bay windfarm or the gas from fracking on the Fylde but the unit cost isn't any different than if it's gas from Russia or whatever.

I might be wrong here, but ultimately, if I'm even half right... What???? Eh????
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It's almost as if vital infrastructure being a commodity that is speculated upon by financial parasites isn't good for consumers...

Energy and food are the most important strategic concerns of any nation. They should be in the hands of the state, not the international banking cartel.
 
GeminiPool said:
It's almost as if vital infrastructure being a commodity that is speculated upon by financial parasites isn't good for consumers...

Energy and food are the most important strategic concerns of any nation. They should be in the hands of the state, not the international banking cartel.
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What I find frustrating is that so much of our infrastructure is owned by foreign investors. The profits made from UK consumers does not go into improvements of the system but rather into the pockets of (for instance) Australian pensioners.
 
Lost Seasider said:
And if A did try and sell his product at below market price, without expanding output, then trader C would buy as much as he possibly could and sell it on at, you've guessed it, £50.




I've explained this a couple of times already.

The supply of renewables and nuclear is fixed, it does not and cannot respond to the market price.

Gas is the marginal producer, it can respond to market conditions, the cost of gas determines the cost of generating electricity (from that source), which then determines the market price of all electricity.

Even if they could, there's no logical reason for renewables producers to sell their output at anything other than market price, because, as mentioned, their output is fixed.

And, as also mentioned, all electricity is alike.
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The supply of renewables isn't fixed. It's expanded hugely in the last 30 years from virtually nothing to actually quite a lot. You can put a new wind turbine up more easily than you can drill a new oil or gas supply...
 
td53 said:
The supply of renewables isn't fixed. It's expanded hugely in the last 30 years from virtually nothing to actually quite a lot. You can put a new wind turbine up more easily than you can drill a new oil or gas supply...
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Fixed in the sense that you're talking years to build a new wind-farm, whereas demand shifts from hour to hour.
 
Archibald Knox said:
In the meantime, Rishi Sunak’s wife, Akshata Murthy, avoids paying a single penny in UK income tax as a result of her “non-domiciled” status even though she lives here 365 days of the year.
www.independent.co.uk

Revealed: Rishi Sunak’s millionaire wife avoids tax through non-dom status

Exclusive: Akshata Murthy could have saved millions of pounds in tax on foreign earnings over several years, sources claim
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
To quote John Lyndon... “Ever get the feeling you’ve been had?”

On a personal note, my sympathy, pensioners are getting the rough end of this situation as I well know. But I am surprised they want to increase your DD by that much. It’s worth keeping up to date with your account balance in case with the increase you are soon running a hefty positive balance which is unnecessarily to BGas’ benefit. You should be able to set the DD amount yourself on their website, surely?
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I know someone who is not a pensioner and have tripled his DD.
 
She’s going to pay tax on her overseas money, everyone calm down.
 
Curryman said:
Turn off all things you can at the plug, don't have anything you use on standby, telly, radio, computer etc it won't save a lot but every little helps. We only have the heating and water, yes we have a hot water tank, on for three hours in the morning and a further two hours in the evening. After that it's blankets and extra layers if cold.

I had some surprisingly good news yesterday. My car insurance has gone up, but only by £1.72 a year. Woohoo.
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Wilf, the only problem with having your heating / hot water on for a short while in the morning and the same in the evening is that everything has got to be heated from scratch so in the long run you use far more energy.
My hot water is, and always has been (throughout the year) on and during winter I leave my heating on all the time but control it with the room stat (if that makes sense)
As the weather is getting warmer I don’t think people will feel the full impact but come autumn and then winter and a hell of a lot of people will suffer.
We are in the process of downsizing from a 4 bed detached to a 2 bed bungalow which will be cheaper all round.
Couldn’t have come at a better time.
 
Scaramanga said:
She’s going to pay tax on her overseas money, everyone calm down.
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Wrong thread.

This thread is about Lost trying to explain why all suppliers of energy have no alternative but to charge the same price whatever the source of that energy.

To be honest he’s trying very hard but is having as much success as he is on the thread explaining why Mrs Sunak shouldn’t have to pay tax on her overseas earnings.

Oh she’s just agreed to? Whoops.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Wrong thread.

This thread is about Lost trying to explain why all suppliers of energy have no alternative but to charge the same price whatever the source of that energy.

To be honest he’s trying very hard but is having as much success as he is on the thread explaining why Mrs Sunak shouldn’t have to pay tax on her overseas earnings.

Oh she’s just agreed to? Whoops.
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Sorry if you can't understand basic economics, maybe you have other talents instead.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Sorry if you can't understand basic economics, maybe you have other talents instead.
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Errrr. But it was you who argued that the economic theory of Producer Surplus explained why all units of energy regardless of source had to be charged out at the same price.

When it clearly did no such thing.

Just admit you tried the Sergeant Bilko “bullshit baffles brains” approach. And you crashed and burned.
 
Scaramanga said:
So no dirty water coming out of taps then, a little tremor.

www.bop-products.com

The Positives of Fracking | BOP Products, Houston Texas

Fracking has significantly improved oil and natural gas production in the United States. Learn all the other positives of fracking in the U.S. economy.
www.bop-products.com www.bop-products.com
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There are still householders in the St Annes area awaiting for their insurance companies to give the go ahead for repairs to damage done to their homes by that "little tremor " St Annes in particular is built on moving sand and fracking therefore is completely unsuitable for that type of land .
 
Matesrates said:
I’m currently with British Gas for both gas and electric. I was paying £87 a month, then they put it up to £156 last month. Now they’ve emailed me to say my current contract ends on 30th April and it’s going up to £348 per month on a variable rate.

I’ve tried to find alternatives and most say they can’t quote at the moment due to uncertainty in the market. Money supermarket quotes a re over £100 a month more.

Any suggestions? As a pensioner this is terrifying.
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Don't complain now!!!!.. you should've voted Labour at the last election. They planned to set up a 'not for profit' state owned energy company.

For the many not the few.
 
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