Some late thoughts on yesterday

[straightatthewall]

Nice game overall. We rode our luck a little, but also worked hard and with purpose so a draw was certainly fair in my view.

In terms of the team set up, we looked so much better with Gabriel and Lyons as the wing backs. I'm sure this will backfire on me, but IF BOTH STAY FIT they HAVE to start as many games as possible. Not only are both well suited to the role - and our best full backs too - it pushed CJ further up the pitch to play in their half and in the space behind their back line. He's far more effective there than a deeper role that requires him to do more with the ball, something that will never be his strength. Morgan and Norburn were neat and tidy in that set up and won't always have to deal with someone as good as Gibbs-White.

The coach has to find a way to translate the ethos of the performance yesterday into the meat and drink of away league games. Let's be honest, it was a free hit and it was much easier for the players to stick to their defensive shape. Do they have the ability to go to Bristol Rovers, Cheltenham or Carlisle and be both solid enough and proactive enough to take the game to the opposition without conceding soft goals?

 

[tigger]

Good post
Players in their natural positions
Ain’t really rocket science is it

 

[A_Tense_Grin]

Nice game overall. We rode our luck a little, but also worked hard and with purpose so a draw was certainly fair in my view.

In terms of the team set up, we looked so much better with Gabriel and Lyons as the wing backs. I'm sure this will backfire on me, but IF BOTH STAY FIT they HAVE to start as many games as possible. Not only are both well suited to the role - and our best full backs too - it pushed CJ further up the pitch to play in their half and in the space behind their back line. He's far more effective there than a deeper role that requires him to do more with the ball, something that will never be his strength. Morgan and Norburn were neat and tidy in that set up and won't always have to deal with someone as good as Gibbs-White.

The coach has to find a way to translate the ethos of the performance yesterday into the meat and drink of away league games. Let's be honest, it was a free hit and it was much easier for the players to stick to their defensive shape. Do they have the ability to go to Bristol Rovers, Cheltenham or Carlisle and be both solid enough and proactive enough to take the game to the opposition without conceding soft goals?

Not with that defence no. If Critchley wants to stick with this silly formation then an experienced centre half is need to marshall the troops. They were all over the place (again) shirking responsibility and playing the offside trap more in hope than skill.

 

[Adams Kebab]

Not only are both well suited to the role - and our best full backs too - it pushed CJ further up the pitch to play in their half and in the space behind their back line.

I agree with this, the issue is 3/4 of the league leave zero space behind defending deep which is who we have struggled against most.

Our best two away performances have been Portsmouth and Forest which says it all.

It’s odd we’ve not been able to tweak this yet.

 

[poolfc]

When I saw the 1pm teamsheet I thought it's experiment day and he's either trying a 4-2-3-1 to get five in midfield and full backs in to match up with Forest. Or he's going for the 5-4-1/5-2-3 that he used to revert to whenever he was fearing a beating. It was the latter. It didn't quite put every player in their best position as Lyons is a right back but is the only choice at left back when going with a defensive five. Critchley obviously doesn't trust Thompson and he wants Husband at centre half. But it can make for a more solid set up away from home or when trying to stifle and turn how the opposition play back on them. Also had to balance a situation of a lack of strikers so one up front with two wingers and full backs moving up in support when going forward made sense.

Defensively you could see the positioning and lapses in concentration for the two Forest goals. Their movement, quality and technique we don't normally face but it meant we were never going to outscore them once they got one. It was just a question of how many chances they'd take. We also don't know how messy it would have got if they'd scored first and all plans out the window. Which is an unresolved question in our league one season so far. But from what we've seen when that happens and it's not going our way we've basically just given the game up and then a bit of waffle about winning the safe passing afterwards.

Critchley, like yesterday, can obviously give his players more help to manage a game than he has been doing and in turn that engages and motivates them to think about what they're doing and basically fight for a result. He did it in his first stint, so it's very frustrating that mostly so far when Plan A hasn't worked in the league there's been no Plan B. We managed to make ourselves look tiny on a big pitch at Port Vale by going through the motions and cycling through pre-planned passing routines whilst they went for the kill. Whereas we adapted and stood up to Forest. So what next?

 

[Poolster]

Correct re poor marking for second goal. They had two men free just outside the box. Where was the midfield?

 

[straightatthewall]

Re the defence, whilst Lyons is right footed, he's a better all-round player than Dom Tom and offers more going forward and defensively. The 3 CB's can be debated in terms of who's the best etc. but if we're playing that way then at least we can say that CC, Penno, Hubby etc. are suited to it. I'd personally say Penno, Marv and Husby is the best combination of the 3, but I'm not concerned with too many combinations that could be put out there.

 

[Junior_BentsPlatformShoes]

Some good points in the OP. I think, regarding the rest of the season, being more disciplined away from home and keeping our shape as we were the first half yesterday is key - we need to be able to cope with home teams having a go and pressing us and being patient, whilst also being effective on the counter. Gabriel and Lyons are a massive bonus with this , we looked much better. Gabriel had been ill over Christmas and still wasn't 100%, wish I had the same energy he showed. If he can stay fit, he's a real threat for us going forward, and allows CJ to play further up too.

We need to show more intensity playing away as we did yesterday, more pace when we are going forward without the obsession with ponderous possession keeping then giving the ball away in dangerous areas. Home teams are well-up for beating us as a recent Championship team, we need to be up to it. (In effect, Forest did what we have been doing away in the first half - being slow and ponderous, thinking they'd easily beat us by staying patient and routined, it didn't work either)

 

[straightatthewall]

Correct re poor marking for second goal. They had two men free just outside the box. Where was the midfield?

We got caught out because 20 seconds or so earlier we were up the other end trying to fashion a chance. CJ gave it away cheaply and they broke quickly because they had some half-decent players. Once you get stretched out like that you're in trouble, but the finish was top drawer.

 

[Mark_GT]

We got caught out because 20 seconds or so earlier we were up the other end trying to fashion a chance. CJ gave it away cheaply and they broke quickly because they had some half-decent players. Once you get stretched out like that you're in trouble, but the finish was top drawer.

Considering the standard of the Forest squad we did well yesterday, and at least as mentioned we had wing backs on their correct foot. It would be good to see the ideas repeated in the league against more prosaic opposition. Another reason why we get stretched out is the lack of pace in the back three, which is made more apparent without Marv's recovery tackling. I'd much prefer a back four with the full backs offering more speed on the cover. Seems like it's not going to happen though.

 

[Hankey2009]

How we don’t pick Gabriel and Lyons every week when fit is beyond me. A couple of guaranteed starters imo

 

[straightatthewall]

How we don’t pick Gabriel and Lyons every week when fit is beyond me. A couple of guaranteed starters imo

Well the bigger issue is whether Gabriel in particular can ever be fit. As you say, all things being equal, they start every game, but as much as I'd like to see it, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[GrahamwantshisOates]

We got caught out because 20 seconds or so earlier we were up the other end trying to fashion a chance. CJ gave it away cheaply and they broke quickly because they had some half-decent players. Once you get stretched out like that you're in trouble, but the finish was top drawer.

The same happened in 2021. It was 1-1 with a few minutes left when Tyresse John-Jules was mugged by a defender and they broke away and scored.

 

[clappers]

How we don’t pick Gabriel and Lyons every week when fit is beyond me. A couple of guaranteed starters imo

Coach has made some weird decisions really since he’s come back. Hopefully this will be the dawn of a rethink. No doubt his avid supporters who think he’s a genius will attribute all his mistakes to groundwork if we do kick on but the reality is wasted time and opportunity this season.

 

[Martonmosser]

Nice game overall. We rode our luck a little, but also worked hard and with purpose so a draw was certainly fair in my view.

In terms of the team set up, we looked so much better with Gabriel and Lyons as the wing backs. I'm sure this will backfire on me, but IF BOTH STAY FIT they HAVE to start as many games as possible. Not only are both well suited to the role - and our best full backs too - it pushed CJ further up the pitch to play in their half and in the space behind their back line. He's far more effective there than a deeper role that requires him to do more with the ball, something that will never be his strength. Morgan and Norburn were neat and tidy in that set up and won't always have to deal with someone as good as Gibbs-White.

The coach has to find a way to translate the ethos of the performance yesterday into the meat and drink of away league games. Let's be honest, it was a free hit and it was much easier for the players to stick to their defensive shape. Do they have the ability to go to Bristol Rovers, Cheltenham or Carlisle and be both solid enough and proactive enough to take the game to the opposition without conceding soft goals?

Didn’t go yesterday or manage to watch any highlights yet but wasn’t the defending for the first goal poor again from what I read on here on the match thread?

 

[Martonmosser]

Well the bigger issue is whether Gabriel in particular can ever be fit. As you say, all things being equal, they start every game, but as much as I'd like to see it, I'm not holding my breath.

Or if he stays in the transfer window. I believe at least one local club in the Championship is looking at him

 

[tangysider]

Really think Gabriel, Lyons combination is the way forward if he wants 3 at the back. Side looks better balanced and both offer a goal threat themselves.
To be fair Critchley has not had them as an option for most of the season, so hope they now stay injury free.

 

[FessParker]

Didn’t go yesterday or manage to watch any highlights yet but wasn’t the defending for the first goal poor again from what I read on here on the match thread?

If you look hard enough you can probably find a bit of poor defending at the heart of every goal. Look at our 2 goals , you would moan about those if we had conceded them.

 

[seasidepaddle]

Not with that defence no. If Critchley wants to stick with this silly formation then an experienced centre half is need to marshall the troops. They were all over the place (again) shirking responsibility and playing the offside trap more in hope than skill.

You really believe we defended poorly against a £150m starting XI yesterday?

Next you'll be saying how come Norburn isn't as good as Morgan Gibbs White

 

[Eternaloptimist]

If you look hard enough you can probably find a bit of poor defending at the heart of every goal. Look at our 2 goals , you would moan about those if we had conceded them.

God forbid Fess, this is AVFTT mate.
It was a great performance against a very good team and even though their second goal was sublime ( and I’m surprised someone (ATG) hasn’t said Grimmy should have saved it) some posters just can’t help undermining the result and for some reason refuse to give Critch any credit whatsoever.

 

[Junior_BentsPlatformShoes]

Not with that defence no. If Critchley wants to stick with this silly formation then an experienced centre half is need to marshall the troops. They were all over the place (again) shirking responsibility and playing the offside trap more in hope than skill.

Do you ever have a day off? Christ, if you're not a WUM, you've a severely negative outlook on life. If you didn't enjoy watching the game yesterday or didn't think the team played well against a prem team, there's no hope for you.

 

[voyeur]

Our wing backs have been a problem ever since the first game against Burton. Until yesterday. I don't really understand why Critch has stuck doggedly with it. Three at the back and two dodgy wing backs.

CJ playing further forward is good. If there's space. If not, then FFS use Apter. We now have the choice.

 

[A_Tense_Grin]

You really believe we defended poorly against a £150m starting XI yesterday?

Next you'll be saying how come Norburn isn't as good as Morgan Gibbs White

Do you ever have a day off? Christ, if you're not a WUM, you've a severely negative outlook on life. If you didn't enjoy watching the game yesterday or didn't think the team played well against a prem team, there's no hope for you.

So what if Morgan Gibbs is a good player. Is that not more a reason to ensure he hasn't got that much space outside the box?

In general the defence did ok but in key moments, the defence looked just as vulnerable as it did at Burton and Port Vale.

Just because we managed a decent result, it doesn't alter my initial response to the thread when suggesting Gabriel will make a difference. Yes, I agree he will add something but the problems at the back go way deeper than who plays at wing back.

 

[Ping Pong]

We let their wingers have far too much space.
Our back 3 played to centrally to rely on Lyons & Gabriel to cover their wingers so often caught out. They both seemed unsure whether to attack or defend, thus leaving their wingers freedom.
I thought Gabrielle was superb up & down & gave 100% & must now be a regular starter. I though Lyons & CJ struggled. CJ gave ball away far to often including their 2nd goal.
I still think, like most we need a back 4 especially away to accommodate Marv & Casey in the centre.
Rhodes cannot play upfront on his own as proved several times & at Huddersfield. He needs support.
He also got fould every time but hardly ever got a free kick.
I'm amazed he didnt bring Marv on later on to prevent the onslaught.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Do you ever have a day off? Christ, if you're not a WUM, you've a severely negative outlook on life. If you didn't enjoy watching the game yesterday or didn't think the team played well against a prem team, there's no hope for you.

Just occasionally @A_Tense_Grin posts a reasonable comment. Not enough though. I think he enjoys the notoriety.

 

[hertfordseasider]

You really believe we defended poorly against a £150m starting XI yesterday?

Next you'll be saying how come Norburn isn't as good as Morgan Gibbs White

I'm more concerned as to why he isn't better than Kenny Dougall!

 

[straightatthewall]

Our wing backs have been a problem ever since the first game against Burton. Until yesterday. I don't really understand why Critch has stuck doggedly with it. Three at the back and two dodgy wing backs.

CJ playing further forward is good. If there's space. If not, then FFS use Apter. We now have the choice.

Two key points there Voy.

1) If Jordan and Lyons were never available why insist on a system that doesn't really work for those who have to play in it? If they were available, why weren't they playing as they're the best options.
2) Fully agree re CJ. He needs space but really isn't good in tight areas. I'd think NC doesn't want to have Apter AND Dembele on the pitch at the same time. Or maybe even Dale and Dembele. Yesterday's set up was good, but would be better with a genuine '10' to play off and in tandem with Rhodes.

I think the bigger issue in terms of the forward thinking players is that there's plenty of potential options but no obvious 'right choice' in terms of who plays where. The same would apply is Lavery and Beesley were fit.

 

[straightatthewall]

I'm more concerned as to why he isn't better than Kenny Dougall!

After reading plenty of negative comments on here, it really came as no surprise to find Norburn was nowhere close to being as 'bad' (sic) as the reviews might imply. He held his position, showed for it off his defenders and tried to break up play and keep us passing it. Solid '6' play (in wanky modern day terminology).

 

[voyeur]

Two key points there Voy.

1) If Jordan and Lyons were never available why insist on a system that doesn't really work for those who have to play in it? If they were available, why weren't they playing as they're the best options.
2) Fully agree re CJ. He needs space but really isn't good in tight areas. I'd think NC doesn't want to have Apter AND Dembele on the pitch at the same time. Or maybe even Dale and Dembele. Yesterday's set up was good, but would be better with a genuine '10' to play off and in tandem with Rhodes.

I think the bigger issue in terms of the forward thinking players is that there's plenty of potential options but no obvious 'right choice' in terms of who plays where. The same would apply is Lavery and Beesley were fit.

Agree. The forward thinking has been disrupted a fair bit by injury but also muddled and weakened by the half baked wing back mistake. Which was obvious on day one tbh.

A lot of teams have played with one striker downed to the middle but it has rarely worked for us, and probably not since DJ? So Critch tried it first time and switched to 442. Then came back and opted for this 352/343/3412 thing. It worked better yesterday as you'd expect with Lyons and Gabriel outside Norburn and Morgan, and CJ released to focus on assisting, and taken out of harm's way. Why have we settled for makeshift for half the season? It seems poor to me. It all seems methodical to the point of being limited and shooting ourselves in the foot. The players look bored with it too. Took a game at a Prem ground to perk them up. Will they flop again after the replay?

On the mitigation side, we do miss Dougall and have missed Norburn from midfield. Quite disruptive. And we are struggling up front without Beesley, Lavery and Kouassi. And have been unlucky with Joseph. To my way of thinking we can still put a strong L1 team out and I'd want Dembele, Rhodes and Apter on the pitch as they all excel at what they do. All proper footballers who pose serious questions to the opposition. Perhaps as a front three.

Critch this season has come with a plan and stuck to it despite not having the right parts. The system we had in the Championship was good but missed an attacking midfielder. I was hoping he'd just make that one change this time round and when he signed Morgan straight away I assumed he would. Then he picked Connolly and CJ as wing backs.....

 

[A_Tense_Grin]

It's mental. This team would win promotion:

Grimshaw
Gabriel-Casey-Ekpiteta-Lyons
Norburn-Dougall-Morgan
CJ-Rhodes-Dembele

An extra midfielder and perhaps an experienced centre half and I would have this team winning week in week out. My first team talk after Critchley leaving would be "Right, let's f*** off this over complicated bollocks and play something that involves less thinking and more playing football"

 

[voyeur]

It's mental. This team would win promotion:

Grimshaw
Gabriel-Casey-Ekpiteta-Lyons
Norburn-Dougall-Morgan
CJ-Rhodes-Dembele

An extra midfielder and perhaps an experienced centre half and I would have this team winning week in week out. My first team talk after Critchley leaving would be "Right, let's f*** off this over complicated bollocks and play something that involves less thinking and more playing football"

"Just go out there and play football."

"Right boss."

 

[A_Tense_Grin]

"Just go out there and play football."

"Right boss."

Well it would be more productive than telling James Husband he is going to be on 'Stars in their Eyes".

Tonight James, you are going to be Jaap Stam (centre half), Roberto Carlos (left back) and Ryan Giggs (left winger) ....