The Poor are Just Failures!

BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Thanks for your input 1966, but to be honest, I’ve found the thread extremely heartening. The subject ‘accidentally’ came up in a different thread and I thought the question itself was thought provoking.

From what I can see (and for once on here) we seem to have quite a broad consensus, which is quite unusual for AVFTT and I’m quite surprised by that to be honest.

I think what it shows, is that despite the Political differences that separate people. We mostly want the same thing and are compassionate about the less fortunate members of our society.

It’s good that you’ve decided to offer up a bit of moral counsel though…It’s very much appreciated 👍


It wasn’t a clear enough question at all. For starters you referred to ‘the problems faced by the poor’ when I was referring to poverty as an issue.

The problems faced by the poor is something quite non-descript. So it’s possible that I might both agree and disagree with your statement… My honest answer to the question would be ‘I don’t know’ I might or I might not…

The ‘problems faced by the poor’ could literally mean anything, including the same problems that are faced by everyone else. It’s a poorly positioned question and certainly didn’t accurately reflect what I had previously said at all.
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That may be what you say. Scrolling through the thread I see a lot more discrimination.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Thanks for your input 1966, but to be honest, I’ve found the thread extremely heartening. The subject ‘accidentally’ came up in a different thread and I thought the question itself was thought provoking.

From what I can see (and for once on here) we seem to have quite a broad consensus, which is quite unusual for AVFTT and I’m quite surprised by that to be honest.

I think what it shows, is that despite the Political differences that separate people. We mostly want the same thing and are compassionate about the less fortunate members of our society.

It’s good that you’ve decided to offer up a bit of moral counsel though…It’s very much appreciated 👍


It wasn’t a clear enough question at all. For starters you referred to ‘the problems faced by the poor’ when I was referring to poverty as an issue.

The problems faced by the poor is something quite non-descript. So it’s possible that I might both agree and disagree with your statement… My honest answer to the question would be ‘I don’t know’ I might or I might not…

The ‘problems faced by the poor’ could literally mean anything, including the same problems that are faced by everyone else. It’s a poorly positioned question and certainly didn’t accurately reflect what I had previously said at all.
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Thank you for answering my question.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
This is a stupid, immature and unnecessary thread. Do any posters really take it seriously or is it just a juvenile Indulgence?
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I don't think the thread is stupid, immature or unnecessary and I think that some good points have been made.

Saying that, I think it's the kind of thread which will inevitably lead to disagreement among posters and highly likely that some will resort to making things personal.
 
Wizaard said:
Is it fair to say that anyone who cares about the less fortunate has empathy, while those who don't are sociopaths?
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Possibly… but I think this thread has demonstrated more than people simply caring. I think that there’s also pretty broad agreement that the system plays a significant role in the problem of poverty.👍

I think we have to be careful about trying to attribute that to one party or another, because both have failed to properly address the issue. I also wonder if some of it is actually outside of government control and potentially a ‘human problem’
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Possibly… but I think this thread has demonstrated more than people simply caring. I think that there’s also pretty broad agreement that the system plays a significant role in the problem of poverty.👍

I think we have to be careful about trying to attribute that to one party or another, because both have failed to properly address the issue. I also wonder if some of it is actually outside of government control and potentially a ‘human problem’
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Possibly, but when a single party has been in charge for 14 years, its hard to look beyond them as being responsible, whether actively causing hardship through deliberate austerity policies, or simply failing to act to mitigate the pain and suffering so many are going through.

Meanwhile, our leader is showing what a man of the people he is by going everywhere by air

metro.co.uk

Train-shy Rishi Sunak takes another private helicopter over public transport

He saved himself a whole ten minutes by not travelling on a train.
metro.co.uk metro.co.uk
 
1966_and_all_that said:
This is a stupid, immature and unnecessary thread. Do any posters really take it seriously or is it just a juvenile Indulgence?
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I’m looking at it as an intriguing experiment in physics, exploring a parallel dimension where posters seem to have adopted a moral and ethical position that’s diametrically opposed to their usual avftt persona.

Hence the traditionally frothing RWNJs have suddenly discovered empathy and caring, whilst the lefty loonies have been converted into hard faced “pull yourself up by your bootlaces loser!!!!” types.

Frankly it’s all a bit befuddling so I’m off to a different thread where the you can always expect people to say pretty much what they are supposed to say.

Edit to add. I’ve just been on the ULEZ thread only to find Trammo is supporting Sadiq Khan. It’s spreading and looks as if there may be a puncture in the space time continuum.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
I’m looking at it as an intriguing experiment in physics, exploring a parallel dimension where posters seem to have adopted a moral and ethical position that’s diametrically opposed to their usual avftt persona.

Hence the traditionally frothing RWNJs have suddenly discovered empathy and caring, whilst the lefty loonies have been converted into hard faced “pull yourself up by your bootlaces loser!!!!” types.

Frankly it’s all a bit befuddling so I’m off to a different thread where the you can always expect people to say pretty much what they are supposed to say.

Edit to add. I’ve just been on the ULEZ thread only to find Trammo is supporting Sadiq Khan. It’s spreading and looks as if there may be a puncture in the space time continuum.
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I wish more people on here would say what they’re not supposed to say.

I think(and I’m only guessing of course) that it’s probably more of an experiment in Psychology than Physics 😉
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m looking at it as an intriguing experiment in physics, exploring a parallel dimension where posters seem to have adopted a moral and ethical position that’s diametrically opposed to their usual avftt persona.

Hence the traditionally frothing RWNJs have suddenly discovered empathy and caring, whilst the lefty loonies have been converted into hard faced “pull yourself up by your bootlaces loser!!!!” types.

Frankly it’s all a bit befuddling so I’m off to a different thread where the you can always expect people to say pretty much what they are supposed to say.

Edit to add. I’ve just been on the ULEZ thread only to find Trammo is supporting Sadiq Khan. It’s spreading and looks as if there may be a puncture in the space time continuum.
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Haha! Exactly!

Or to quote the great Shaun Ryder: "Yer twistin` my melon, man".

Edit to add: it`s good to tease posters out of their comfort/default zone occasionally...
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
Nope. Definitely physics.

There’s something a bit weird going on here.
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I fairness, I think there's a couple of popular misconceptions in your analysis (although they're misconceptions that serve us all well on here in order to keep up the facade).. The first being that Right Leaning folk are not empathetic and secondly that Left leaning folk can't be hard faced.... From my experience I think both can display empathy and both can be intolerant and lacking in empathy when it suits. Let's face it, the extreme ends of either political wing lead us to the same disastrous / callous & catastrophic outcomes.

That said, both need each other, both generally have good intentions, but tend to come at things from different perspectives.... So both might be empathetic to the problem of poverty, recognise it as a systemic issue, but then might have different ways of tackling the problem. I'm generalising here, but my impression is that the Left tend to be more concerned with the immediacy of a particular problem and showing compassion and attention in the moment, whereas the right might look for a more practical solution that might not address the immediacy of a problem, but might give a better long term outcome.

Of course, it's not that simple... Because often people on the right would rail against a compassionate choice (An example might be criminal rehabilitation instead of punishment) when the practical evidence suggest that rehabilitation and non-custodial options produce a better outcome and left leaning folk rarely have too much compassion for anyone that doesn't share their views and tend to use assume that their compassion means that they are fundamentally right and therefore can use all means necessary to impose their will.

As individuals, I think we are far more complex that the daft politically hamstrung personas that we adopt on this forum most of the time.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
I’m looking at it as an intriguing experiment in physics, exploring a parallel dimension where posters seem to have adopted a moral and ethical position that’s diametrically opposed to their usual avftt persona.

Hence the traditionally frothing RWNJs have suddenly discovered empathy and caring, whilst the lefty loonies have been converted into hard faced “pull yourself up by your bootlaces loser!!!!” types.

Frankly it’s all a bit befuddling so I’m off to a different thread where the you can always expect people to say pretty much what they are supposed to say.

Edit to add. I’ve just been on the ULEZ thread only to find Trammo is supporting Sadiq Khan. It’s spreading and looks as if there may be a puncture in the space time continuum.
Click to expand...

Actually it more shows that these political labels we’re given by each other, and I’ve been guilty of it too, aren’t necessarily accurate or meaningful.

We all have different views across an array of topics.

Expressing a right of centre view earns you the RWNJ label on here. Having a right of centre view on one issue doesn’t mean you’ll be right of centre on another. It’s much more complex than that.

There are some who will back to the hilt everything their favourite party offers, purely because it’s their favourite party. A sort of blind faith.

But I prefer to take a much more selective approach. There’s lots the Tory’s do that I don’t support or agree with, but they or any other party would get my vote if overall I felt their total package was the best choice.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I fairness, I think there's a couple of popular misconceptions in your analysis (although they're misconceptions that serve us all well on here in order to keep up the facade).. The first being that Right Leaning folk are not empathetic and secondly that Left leaning folk can't be hard faced.... From my experience I think both can display empathy and both can be intolerant and lacking in empathy when it suits. Let's face it, the extreme ends of either political wing lead us to the same disastrous / callous & catastrophic outcomes.

That said, both need each other, both generally have good intentions, but tend to come at things from different perspectives.... So both might be empathetic to the problem of poverty, recognise it as a systemic issue, but then might have different ways of tackling the problem. I'm generalising here, but my impression is that the Left tend to be more concerned with the immediacy of a particular problem and showing compassion and attention in the moment, whereas the right might look for a more practical solution that might not address the immediacy of a problem, but might give a better long term outcome.

Of course, it's not that simple... Because often people on the right would rail against a compassionate choice (An example might be criminal rehabilitation instead of punishment) when the practical evidence suggest that rehabilitation and non-custodial options produce a better outcome and left leaning folk rarely have too much compassion for anyone that doesn't share their views and tend to use assume that their compassion means that they are fundamentally right and therefore can use all means necessary to impose their will.

As individuals, I think we are far more complex that the daft politically hamstrung personas that we adopt on this forum most of the time.
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Good post 👍

Also folk on here box people off into little containers with labels such as ‘right’ and ‘left’ stuck on, and then approach them and their opinions based on how they’ve labelled them.

Some of the posters who continually take the moral high ground are the worst for this.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I fairness, I think there's a couple of popular misconceptions in your analysis (although they're misconceptions that serve us all well on here in order to keep up the facade).. The first being that Right Leaning folk are not empathetic and secondly that Left leaning folk can't be hard faced.... From my experience I think both can display empathy and both can be intolerant and lacking in empathy when it suits. Let's face it, the extreme ends of either political wing lead us to the same disastrous / callous & catastrophic outcomes.

That said, both need each other, both generally have good intentions, but tend to come at things from different perspectives.... So both might be empathetic to the problem of poverty, recognise it as a systemic issue, but then might have different ways of tackling the problem. I'm generalising here, but my impression is that the Left tend to be more concerned with the immediacy of a particular problem and showing compassion and attention in the moment, whereas the right might look for a more practical solution that might not address the immediacy of a problem, but might give a better long term outcome.

Of course, it's not that simple... Because often people on the right would rail against a compassionate choice (An example might be criminal rehabilitation instead of punishment) when the practical evidence suggest that rehabilitation and non-custodial options produce a better outcome and left leaning folk rarely have too much compassion for anyone that doesn't share their views and tend to use assume that their compassion means that they are fundamentally right and therefore can use all means necessary to impose their will.

As individuals, I think we are far more complex that the daft politically hamstrung personas that we adopt on this forum most of the time.
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I’ve read this after posting my most recent comment. I should have read this first as it’s very close to what I wrote. 👍
 
Malced said:
Actually it more shows that these political labels we’re given by each other, and I’ve been guilty of it too, aren’t necessarily accurate or meaningful.

We all have different views across an array of topics.

Expressing a right of centre view earns you the RWNJ label on here. Having a right of centre view on one issue doesn’t mean you’ll be right of centre on another. It’s much more complex than that.

There are some who will back to the hilt everything their favourite party offers, purely because it’s their favourite party. A sort of blind faith.

But I prefer to take a much more selective approach. There’s lots the Tory’s do that I don’t support or agree with, but they or any other party would get my vote if overall I felt their total package was the best choice.
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A very sensible, logical, intelligent approach Malced. I’m with you on all of that 👌
 
😂 Well BFCx3 and Malced both posting pretty much the same thing after squabbling on this and countless other threads prove my hypothesis.

There’s a rupture somewhere in the space time continuum
 
Mexboroseasider said:
😂 Well BFCx3 and Malced both posting pretty much the same thing after squabbling on this and countless other threads prove my hypothesis.

There’s a rupture somewhere in the space time continuum
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Ye, they broke through any daft labels and argued it out enough to see that they both have pretty similar views on this one 👍
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well they haven’t actually agreed they’ve agreed yet.

Let’s wait and see.
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They’ve agreed on something so that’s a start 👍
They don’t have to agree on anything though to be honest, that’s their call. I think the debate between the two of them was a necessary ice breaker 🤗
 
Lala said:
They’ve agreed on something so that’s a start 👍
They don’t have to agree on anything though to be honest, that’s their call. I think the debate between the two of them was a necessary ice breaker 🤗
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I dunno. Can you say people are in agreement unless they agree they are in agreement?

An interesting philosophical question that I can’t pursue at the moment as there’s some paint that I need to watch to make sure it dries.

Toodlepip
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I dunno. Can you say people are in agreement unless they agree they are in agreement?

An interesting philosophical question that I can’t pursue at the moment as there’s some paint that I need to watch to make sure it dries.

Toodlepip
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They agreed on the last post so yes they actually do agree on something. You must have missed that.

Enjoy the paint drying, you could always stick some labels on boxes whilst you wait.

Tara
 
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